What is Cheese? ignorant to the lingo

sebadelphia · Post by **sebadelphia** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:26 pm

I have seen this phrase a-many, but do not understand what it is.
what is this cheese?
Is there any other lingo I should know about?

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:12 pm

"Cheese" is lingo for a cheesy tactic, which is a tactic that exploits the game engine or the AI.

A good example is exploiting the AI while they're still in the fog of war by spamming Cloudkill spells until they die. Since the AI in the vanilla game won't attack things outside of their field of vision (in the fog of war), they'll just stand there, taking damage, until they die.

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:09 pm

Like Nightmare says, Cheese is an exploitation or usage of a loophole in a set of rules (if you play D&D, you might hear about things like Pun-Pun or the Locate City Bomb, which are both perfectly legit rules but extreme cheese).

There's also broken. Broken usually means something is over or underpowered by a rather large amount. If say, a spell does slightly less damage than you think it should, then it's not broken, but if a spell is completely useless and pointless for its intended level OR are completely overpowered and game breakers, these are broken. In D&D, The Deck of Many Things is considered to be a broken item as it breaks the game.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:56 pm

In D&D, The Deck of Many Things is considered to be a broken item as it breaks the game.

How?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:11 pm

galraen wrote: How?

OK, glad it wasn't just me who was left confused after reading that..

lol Sib, care to explain?

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:35 pm

The benefits and penalties are extremely high, it doesn't break the game in that it's an overpowered item itself, but it breaks the game due to what it does to your characters.

Your characters could be severely reduced in stats and abilities, or even levels. Or they could be raised seriously high in level. It's too big a variable for what it does to the game.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:40 am

Siberys wrote:The benefits and penalties are extremely high, it doesn't break the game in that it's an overpowered item itself, but it breaks the game due to what it does to your characters.

Your characters could be severely reduced in stats and abilities, or even levels. Or they could be raised seriously high in level. It's too big a variable for what it does to the game.

Isn't that the whole point about that item? Great power comes at great risk?

Real gamebreakers in D&D are things like Candles of Invocation and Dust of Sneezing and Choking.
The Candle because it grants you several Wish spells, in fact. (Gate in a Djinni.)
The Dust because it makes every creature that breathes helpless, without a save of any kind.
Both are cheap, available at early levels, and there's nothing that can be used to stop them.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:22 am

GawainBS wrote:Both are cheap, available at early levels, and there's nothing that can be used to stop them.

Only if the DM is dumb enough to put them into the game.

Any DM that allows such items to be purchased is obviously not dealing from a full deck of many things!

A djini can only be gated in if the DM decides that's appropriate, in 2E anyway, the books states 'of the same alignment' so DM's decision as to what comes through.

WE're getting OT again though.

I guess the worst example of 'Cheese' is exploiting bad game design involving placing traps around 'neutral' characters. If you come across a potential enemy that's scripted to talk to you, then until the conversation or your action turns them hostile you can set traps around them to your hearts content, and they won't do anything about it. Then when they do turn hostile 'Boom' they're dead, instantly, no save! There are a few dragons which can be killed this way, which is patently stupid game design.

Baldur's Gate 2 is a masterpiece, but a very flawed one, and the fact it is considered a masterpiece is more a reflection on other games than BG.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:56 am

galraen wrote:Only if the DM is dumb enough to put them into the game.

Well, yes, but isn't that exactly what "cheese" entails?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:00 am

GawainBS wrote:Well, yes, but isn't that exactly what "cheese" entails?

Game, set and match to Gawain!

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:30 am

Right, the item is all about risk, but most of the bonus's are far too big, as is are the penalties.

For instance, I had a campaign where they were hunting down and destroying artifacts. They found the DoMT and one of the players decided to draw from it. He got the benefit of "Gain a major magic weapon."

Now, my first five rolls were all within the range of 64-100%, which on the table for a random major weapon is "Special ability, roll again." My next roll was a 49%, which is a +5 enhancement.

So....essentially after all the rolls, I had a +5 Unholy, Shocking Burst, Wounding, Dancing Speed nunchaku. That's an epic item, and it was all based on one single draw from the DoMT. As a DM, I had to interfere and turn it into an intelligent item with a special purpose, to which it would refuse to ever cooperate with anyone or anything until its goals are met.

Chance may not break the game, but the results of chance from the DoMT do. They are enormous.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:48 am

Siberys wrote:Right, the item is all about risk, but most of the bonus's are far too big, as is are the penalties.

For instance, I had a campaign where they were hunting down and destroying artifacts. They found the DoMT and one of the players decided to draw from it. He got the benefit of "Gain a major magic weapon."

Now, my first five rolls were all within the range of 64-100%, which on the table for a random major weapon is "Special ability, roll again." My next roll was a 49%, which is a +5 enhancement.

So....essentially after all the rolls, I had a +5 Unholy, Shocking Burst, Wounding, Dancing Speed nunchaku. That's an epic item, and it was all based on one single draw from the DoMT. As a DM, I had to interfere and turn it into an intelligent item with a special purpose, to which it would refuse to ever cooperate with anyone or anything until its goals are met.

Chance may not break the game, but the results of chance from the DoMT do. They are enormous.

I rather deal with that weapon than with Gates and Dusts. After all, it's only a weapon. It requires that the person that wields it even gets to the combat, a serious issue at higher levels for warrior-types.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:09 pm

Siberys wrote:Right, the item is all about risk, but most of the bonus's are far too big, as is are the penalties.

For instance, I had a campaign where they were hunting down and destroying artifacts. They found the DoMT and one of the players decided to draw from it. He got the benefit of "Gain a major magic weapon."

Now, my first five rolls were all within the range of 64-100%, which on the table for a random major weapon is "Special ability, roll again." My next roll was a 49%, which is a +5 enhancement.

So....essentially after all the rolls, I had a +5 Unholy, Shocking Burst, Wounding, Dancing Speed nunchaku. That's an epic item, and it was all based on one single draw from the DoMT. As a DM, I had to interfere and turn it into an intelligent item with a special purpose, to which it would refuse to ever cooperate with anyone or anything until its goals are met.

Chance may not break the game, but the results of chance from the DoMT do. They are enormous.

Sorry Siberys, but that was your fault for letting the dice decide instead of deciding yourself. You put the DoMT into the game, and should have prepared for the outcome IMHO, and had items ready for each possible roll, obviously the draws have to be random. Yes that does mean an awful lot of preparatory work for the poor old DM, but if you can't spare the time to do it, don't put the deck into the game to start with.

I'm not trying to put anyone down by the way, I've made the same sort of mistake myself more often than I care to remember, but the fault was mine, not the item that I put into the game.

As Gawain so succinctly put it, exploiting the DM's error is exactly what "cheese" entails.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:21 pm

More on topic in BG2: There's a thread around where we discuss wether or not using Scrolls of Protection from Undead against Kangaxx is cheese or not. Many fine examples of cheese in that thread.

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:47 pm

Sorry Siberys, but that was your fault for letting the dice decide instead of deciding yourself. You put the DoMT into the game, and should have prepared for the outcome IMHO, and had items ready for each possible roll, obviously the draws have to be random. Yes that does mean an awful lot of preparatory work for the poor old DM, but if you can't spare the time to do it, don't put the deck into the game to start with.

As I said, even though the dice rolled that weapon, I DID change it to make it nonfunctional for the most part.

And plus, this was the first artifact they used of the 11 they destroyed. I didn't expect them to use it as the whole game was based around that particular theme.

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:16 pm

The true danger of a Deck of Many Things (as well as any random effect item) is that in 2nd edition rules (Tome of Magic I believe) a Wild Mage has a certain percentage chance of being able to control the item. This being the DoMT, Wand of Wonder, Cubic Gate, Robe of Items, and the list goes on... We are very lucky this was not put in BGII as this would be uber cheese, limburger style...