3.5 Monk questions

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:54 pm

Hello there. Im on a quest to create a perfect -AC wise- melee character.

If monk advances to duelist, will he get bonus to AC from all 3 : Dex, Wis and Int while not wearing armor?
Elaborate Parry (duelist lvl 7 skill) : Does it stack with the bonus from Tumbling ranks?
Elaborate Parry (duelist lvl 7 skill) : Does it stack with monks bonus AC (that he gets every 4 or every 5 levels)
Elaborate Parry (duelist lvl 7 skill) : Do you have to use a rapier to get its benefits?

Thats it, thank you for your time

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:16 am

1, 2 and 3 are answered [url="http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/combat.html#dodge-bonuses"]here[/url], under Dodge bonuses.
4. Pretty clear: No, you don't have to.

Can you go outside of Core? Because this requires you to have three *very* high stats, and none of these increase your damage. Damage might be nice to make it practical, even if you only want AC.

Even in core, a character with +5 Full Plate, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armour, +5 Shield and a +5 Defending weapon probably has a higher AC. 10 + 8 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 46.
Whereas a Monk/Duelist with 22 in WIS, DEX & INT manages a 46 as well, but having a 22 in each stat isn't that easy and you'll probably be severely lacking in usefulness.
If you add in Elaborate Parry, the Monk's AC goes to 59, but you got a -4 to hit, which makes your probably weak melee abilities even worse. You can get a 62 when going total defense, but then you stop being a threat at all. In both cases, your AC is missing the point, since nobody will even care to hit it, since you've in fact taken yourself out of the combat.

There are also a lot of attacks that don't care about AC.

Outside Core, you can get higher AC (and other tricks to avoid getting hit), and be an extremely deadly melee combatatant to boot.

In short: While it's a nice exercise to get your AC as high as possible, always keep the practical side in mind.

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:57 am

But as high as possible AC HAS its practical uses in this case.

One level in devoted defender.. And protecting party mage while he unleashes hell

Edit : Also, WIS and INT wont be upgraded while leveling, just with items (neck and 'helmet')
DEX will be upgraded with everything possible, and at some point weapon finesse will be taken.

with 20 dex (elf) 18 wis 18 int (and 8 to 10 in other atributes) on creation it will go high quite fast.
Monks are allowed to use Bracers of Armor (at least our DM allows it).

The only problem here will be Ki level of unarmed attacks, which will force me to use a weapon (kama or something alike) Monk9/Duelist10/Defender 1. Tumbling as the most important skill.. Voila!

Damage wont be high in any case, but the character -will- score hits quite often

I am also aware that magic attacks may be a problem here, especialy those that test Hardiness (not reflexes nor will.. how is the roll called?) but aside from rolling a drow, or getting and wearing antimagic shackles (book of exalted deeds) there's nothing that can be done.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:23 am

So, a melee character with 10 STR & CON? That's asking for trouble. Your HP will be low, and your Fort save will not be particularly high. Weapon Finesse may help your to hit, but if you hit for 1d6 + 5 damage or so, that's not really impressive.
Bracers of Armour work, but they take in the place of another item, like Bracers of Health +6. Better to ask the Wizard/Sorcerer to cast (Improved) Mage Armour on your vest or something.
BTW, casters don't really care about things that target their AC anyway, so this Monk/Duelist is a bit redundant.

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:51 am

It has its limits, no doubt about that.

But even tho casters dont depend on AC, its better when they aint attacked, stoneskins, mirror images etc. wont stop everything.
and a front line warrior (we have a troll

) can be protected from, say, a dragon. As long as a natural 20 does not show up.

The powers of monk/duelist are limited, but in group such tank can be priceless.

Well thats my opinion at least.

But you're right about the CON, i'll have to think about this one. Str was always marginal for every character that i ever made.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:06 am

The problem with a tank in D&D is, that you generally lack an "aggro" mechanic. If you don't make yourself a threat, nobody is going to care about you and your high AC.
You can become a tank, broadly speaking, in two ways:
a) You make sure you pump out a lot of damage. (Twohanded weapons, Power Attack, Charges,...) You are a threat, so the enemy has to focus on you.
b) You try to get as much a threatened area as possible (Spiked Chain and Expansion is a very basic concept of this) and you prevent enemies from moving/acting in this area. This way, you make sure they don't get to other party members.

Finally, will you enjoy playing a character for a very long time, when the only thing you have to do is saying "I take the mage's place of that attack!", while the attack would probably haven't harmed that mage in the first place?

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:35 am

There is the third way to be a tank, one that im talking about all the time.

- Mentioned Devote Defender class is a tank. He forces enemies to attack him instead of Y! (or rather switches places, but it is the same). Enemies dont want to attack him? They have to anyway.

while the attack would probably haven't harmed that mage in the first place

We aint talking about goblins and kobolds here, with 1 attack of -10BAB, but about enemies who melt things down in a heartbeat. Even if the mage has all the protection from god spells in the spellbook, those -wont- stop powerful foes for long. If something aint powerfull enough to threaten a mage, then even monks damage can deal with it.

Finally, will you enjoy playing a character for a very long time, when the only thing you have to do is saying "I take the mage's place of that attack!", while the attack would probably haven't harmed that mage in the first place?

Thats a huge overstatement. Aside from truly mad battles, the char wont just protect others in full defense action, and even in those mad ones, playing a tank CAN be fun you know.
I will enjoy playing a character who moves with blazing speed, can jump 'rather far' and is very difficult to kill. Also, even if it deals only the d4+5 damage, damage is not everything. Not in D&D. There are far too many ways of fighting the enemy, even in melee.

P.S. Trying to make monk an offensive character forces you to have 4 high statistics and you will still do nothing without a weapon, untill you get 2 or 3 Epic feats which raise the "ki" of your fists. Otherwise something with 15/+4 DR wont be damaged at all by your silly attacks.
On the other side, once your fists and feet are 'magical' enough, attacks are devastating.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:47 am

Devoted Defender has its own prereqs, which further detract from your capabilities in combat, and requires you to be in 5ft of your ward. You can protect exactly one character. Also, most Wizards are probably flying one way or another, so good luck getting 5ft next to them.
Things that get past "Protection from Gods" spells make mincemeat of this bodyguard character. So that would mostly buy the Wizard/caster one extra round.
About damage, that's the point: apart from that AC, that character hasn't got anything else to do reliably. Also, you're a non-Tome of Battle melee character and Dex-based at that, so tripping/grappling isn't an option. What is left? Doing damage. Good luck with that.

I have seen these characters before. I even played one before. They become obsolete really fast.

I will enjoy playing a character who moves with blazing speed, can jump 'rather far' and is very difficult to kill.

You know, there are a lot more efficient ways to do that, and be a better tank along the way too.

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:00 am

None of us is going to convince the other one anywhere soon, so let us just leave it as it is (or continue this discussion on PM if you wish, kind sir)

I cant always play a warrior / DoD with 2 keen, vorpal scimitars

But thank you for answering the questions in post 1.

Edit :

"non-Tome of Battle"

. We do use the mechanics from ToB aswell, but not blade magic.

Edit 2:

You know, there are a lot more efficient ways to do that, and be a better tank along the way too.

I'm all ears?

Regards!

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:22 am

There is the [url="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327"]Swiftblade PrC[/url]. A Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion5/Swiftblade9 gets an AC in the high 50-s, low 60-s, is a Huge creature (a Half-Dragon Firegiant, to be exact, via Draconic Polymorph, from Draconomicon), is nearly-constant Hasted, virtually every non-area of effect has 50% miss chance against him, and he has pretty good saves (high 20-s, low 30-s, I believe), and has a high attack. Furthermore, he has an extra standard action every round and he can cast Wraithstrike for enormous damage. He probably has an initiative in the 30's and a 60ft speed. Coupled with the Jump spell, he also jump "rather far".

You can also go for a Monk2/PsychicWarrior11/Crusader1/SanctifiedMind6. With Robillar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Tashalatora, Polemaster and Mageslayer, and Thicket of Blade stance, you get a 30-ft radius area where anything that moves gets attacked by you and stopped in its tracks, anything that casts gets interrupted, and everything that attacks you (attacks, not hits) gets 2 AoOs. Furthermore, he has the speed of a 13th lvl Monk, and he can use his swift action to move that speed. (Via the Hustle power.) He can also run on walls and ceilings.

You can also keep it more Core-only (but luckily, you don't sound like someone who does), and go for a Fighter2/Wizard5/EldritchKnight10/Archmage3 and stand in your own Anti-Magic Field, while still being able to cast spells. (And also be a Fire Giant or something for extra reach and STR.)

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:32 am

How come i never heard about swiftblade, what book is it from? Im blind or what? :speech:

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:39 am

It's a web enhancement for use with Complete Mage.

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:47 am

I never hear about complete mage either.. But this shall change asap

I assume Abjurant Champion is in CM book? Also : Draconomicon? Another book?

Its a pity that there are only several D&D books translated to Polish, that's the main reason why i didnt ever see most of them. (the only one about fighters and monks, aside from the core, gamers one, is "Sword and fist"! OUTRAGE!)

Thanks for a hint about the other books, i shall hunt them down and -then- decide what char to play

Regards

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:44 pm

Aye, Abjurant Champion is from CM as well.

ancientdm · Post by **ancientdm** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:32 pm

Stworca wrote:I never hear about complete mage either.. But this shall change asap

I assume Abjurant Champion is in CM book? Also : Draconomicon? Another book?

Its a pity that there are only several D&D books translated to Polish, that's the main reason why i didnt ever see most of them. (the only one about fighters and monks, aside from the core, gamers one, is "Sword and fist"! OUTRAGE!)

Thanks for a hint about the other books, i shall hunt them down and -then- decide what char to play

Regards

try typing in the books you are looking for in your search engine and usually you will find a free download in PDF most of my searching is done through this site 4shared.com - free file sharing and storage - download thats an example of the 4e draconomicon for metallic dragons. just save the files or put them on a flash drive so you can view them as you need them then just print the pages you need if you have to. I have gotten nearly every book available and a full 2/3rds of them are in pdf. hope this helps you. Also if you do them as a PDF maybe you can use a language translator program to see them in your native language.