Question about party

[jouke1988]

HEy all,

I've got a new game with the next characters:

Me(a Half Orc Figher/Cleric)
Minsc
Aerie
Jan Janssen
Valygar
Mazzy

My question is if this party has inough power to be able to finish the game with. I've got to changes in mind:

Minsc out Keldorn in

And

Aerie/Minsc out Haerdalis/Anomen in

What do you think about this?

thanx

[fable]

Literally every combination of a party can provide enough power to finish the game successfully. There really are no loser groups. You can even do it solo, or with three thieves, or two mages. The major difference is the way you strategize.

For myself, I prefer Korgan to either Keldorn (no grandmastery) or Minsc (uncontrollable berserk at times). But you'll find that quite a lot of people like Minsc, and there's a serious minority who swear by Keldorn. Objectively, if your only goal is emerging victorious, just choose the flavor of interaction and style of combat you want, and select a party that reflects this.

[doady]

^ Grandmastery is useless in BG2 anyways, unless you got the true grandmastery patch.

For a good-aligned party, I think Keldorn is better hands-down. Keldorn is less necessary if you have a lot of mages though, but he is still useful nonetheless. Korgan can be immune to a lot of magic with berserk, but a certain sword can give Keldorn at least 50% magic resistance, on top is his innate immunity to hold and charm.

Keldorn innate immunity to hold does beg the question: why does he need to start off with an armor that gives him free action? And even wearing that armour, he can still get held by web? Bizarre.

Minsc was great in BG1 because of his stealth (I never found his berserk to be useful), but his weapon specializations are not as good in BG2, and Valygar is a better choice for stealth because of backstab. No point in Minsc for BG2, except for the lulz.

But for any party, I'm not sure it is really necessary to have 4 warrior classed characters, as you do, let alone substitute in yet another warrior-classed character to replace Aerie...

[fable]

^ Grandmastery is useless in BG2 anyways, unless you got the true grandmastery patch.

Not in the slightest. There's still a big difference between two proficiency points as Keldorn can gain, and five as Korgan can. Even so, if you'd checked the forum topics before, you'd see we've repeatedly recommended over the years the Gibberlings Three's BG2 Tweak Pack, which contains the True Grandmastery patch and dozens of other optional patches. Great stuff.

That said, grand mastery in a weapons proficiency is still a very useful thing to have, even if in the unmodded game it has been moderately nerfed.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Easy. You've got 2 mage-types, 2 cleric-types, a thief, and 4 fighter types. I'd stick with your current setup if only for the interactions - Minsc/Aerie and Mazzy/Valygar are natural pairings, and Jan and Minsc have some of the better Jan banters too. With your current setup you won't have any problems with item distribution either.
If you haven't got it yet get the G3 Tweakpack for the bonus merchants and no-racial restriction romances if you want to romance Aerie.

[galraen]

No way I'd trade in Aerie for Anomen, she is much more powerful in the long run.

Minsc for Haerdalis makes a lot of sense, having him will complicate a romance with Aerie though.

[doady]

Not in the slightest. There's still a big difference between two proficiency points as Keldorn can gain, and five as Korgan can.

Of course there is a difference, but is that difference worth spending THREE extra points?

Grandmastery as is would be worth it for 3 or maybe even 4 proficiency points, but it is not worth it for 5 points. Consider that grand mastery in BG2 is even weaker than the high mastery in BG1.

Because of the nerf, for a character wielding a single weapon, grand mastery only adds 5 extra damage per round for melee over specialization, instead of adding the 11.5 to 32.5 damage per round, depending on the strength and the weapon used. So not even counting the reduced chance to hit, that is a major nerf right there.

So in the unmodded game, Korgan can do 5 more damage per round than Keldorn. An extra 5 damage per round is not exactly what I would call a dealbreaker, especially when you got to spend so many proficiency points to get it.

[doady]

No way I'd trade in Aerie for Anomen, she is much more powerful in the long run.

Minsc for Haerdalis makes a lot of sense, having him will complicate a romance with Aerie though.

I agree with Haer'dalis for Minsc. I have not used Haer'dalis, but he seems to be one of the most powerful and useful characters, especially with all those crazy high level abilities that rogues/bards get.

[fable]

Of course there is a difference, but is that difference worth spending THREE extra points?

No, which is why as I wrote above, we have recommended here for several years the Gibberlings Three mod--and you seemed unaware of our recommendation. But that still doesn't make grandmastery useless in the unmodded game.

Because of the nerf, for a character wielding a single weapon, grand mastery only adds 5 extra damage per round for melee over specialization, instead of adding the 11.5 to 32.5 damage per round, depending on the strength and the weapon used. So not even counting the reduced chance to hit, that is a major nerf right there.

It's a bit more complex than that, if I recall correctly, since you're just looking at damage. Nerfed ***** gets you 1/2 attack and +2 ThacO, and +5 damage. Nowhere near unnerfed, but no one was claiming it was: so what was your beef? Put it this way: if we didn't know what unnerfed was even like, at least some of us would probably still want the added ThacO and 1/2 attack for Korgan, though the extra damage limits would stink. Personally, I never play without the grandmastery fix, in any case.

[jouke1988]

No way I'd trade in Aerie for Anomen, she is much more powerful in the long run.

Minsc for Haerdalis makes a lot of sense, having him will complicate a romance with Aerie though.

How should I use Hear Dalis? Never took him with me, and mazzy is a first timer as wel. I normally took Anomen Aerie Nalia/Imoen Minsc Valygar with me.

I wanted to try something else but how should i use hear dalis?

[fable]

How should I use Hear Dalis? Never took him with me, and mazzy is a first timer as wel. I normally took Anomen Aerie Nalia/Imoen Minsc Valygar with me.

I wanted to try something else but how should i use hear dalis?

Two phrases. Offensive spin, defensive spin. The songs are nerfed, so these are really the way to go. Give him a few defensive spells as well, and you've got a truly dangerous character--not a tank, but a lethal attacker/defender.

[kmonster]

Treat Haer Dalis as mage. Cast mirror image, stoneskin and AC improving buffs and he usually won't take damage until the battle is over.
Since he levels very fast have him cast the party buffs which depend on casting level like haste.

[Crenshinibon]

Both, kmonster and fable are correct. You want to treat him as whatever you need in whatever situation you're in.

See a closed chest? Use knock.

See a shiny item? Have him shop lift.

Did your tank die? Buff him up and send him to the front lines, use Defensive Spin (he tanks BETTER than the fighters themselves).

Do you need some extra firepower? Have him cast offensive spells (use wands too).

Is your party too weak? Have him be a buffer.

Are you not dealing enough damage? Buff him up and send him to the front lines, use Offensive Spin.

Brute force not working? Set up a few traps.

Overcrowded? Cast Delayed Blast Fireball with your flute!

Do you keep getting disabled? Cast Globe of Invulnerability with your flute!

A bard is a VERY flexible character. Don't forget that later on, he will gain the ability to use ANY item, given that he has the ability requirements for it. This means that aside from the spells he knows, he can cast spells from items, such as Spell Trap from the Staff of the Magi or Paralyze Lightning from the Staff of Power.

[jouke1988]

Both, kmonster and fable are correct. You want to treat him as whatever you need in whatever situation you're in.

See a closed chest? Use knock.

See a shiny item? Have him shop lift.

Did your tank die? Buff him up and send him to the front lines, use Defensive Spin (he tanks BETTER than the fighters themselves).

Do you need some extra firepower? Have him cast offensive spells (use wands too).

Is your party too weak? Have him be a buffer.

Are you not dealing enough damage? Buff him up and send him to the front lines, use Offensive Spin.

Brute force not working? Set up a few traps.

Overcrowded? Cast Delayed Blast Fireball with your flute!

Do you keep getting disabled? Cast Globe of Invulnerability with your flute!

A bard is a VERY flexible character. Don't forget that later on, he will gain the ability to use ANY item, given that he has the ability requirements for it. This means that aside from the spells he knows, he can cast spells from items, such as Spell Trap from the Staff of the Magi or Paralyze Lightning from the Staff of Power.

If I understand you correctly I could use him as any kind of character, should I take Minsc out and Haer'dalis in? And should I put him on the frontline?

[Crenshinibon]

That's really up to you. He can fill in as whatever you're missing. Personally, I like using bards as dualwielding front-line characters, but you may find it better to have Haer' Dalis flinging skull traps from behind your tank while being invulnerable at the same time.

The thing about a bard is that he can do everything well, not as well as others (except maybe fighters who I think are easily replaceable), but what he has over the other characters is incredible flexibility.

I personally would drop Minsc from that party as he contributes the least.

[jouke1988]

That's really up to you. He can fill in as whatever you're missing. Personally, I like using bards as dualwielding front-line characters, but you may find it better to have Haer' Dalis flinging skull traps from behind your tank while being invulnerable at the same time.

The thing about a bard is that he can do everything well, not as well as others (except maybe fighters who I think are easily replaceable), but what he has over the other characters is incredible flexibility.

I personally would drop Minsc from that party as he contributes the least.

Thanx all for your good comment, I will now kick minsc out and take haerdalis with me as a frontliner!

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Coupla things then...
If you do have/get the G3 Tweakpack, be aware the Happy Patch (and I think some of the romance tweaks, though just removing racial restrictions should be OK) disables the Haer'Dalis love triangle bit. Note also that if you're not romancing Aerie they won't romance each other either.

Pickpocket is a really undervalued skill, and both bards and thieves can shoplift.

HD's Defensive Spin becomes a whole lot more useful with the Ring of Free Action equipped (i.e. he can move while using it), though you might want to pass on that if you're using Haste/Improved Haste. Once you get Enhanced Bard Song (Blade songs don't improve with levels so this should be your first or second HLA after Use Any Item) Defensive Spin becomes superfluous anyway (EBS gives -10 AC and a whole bunch of other bonuses, while DS gives a maximum of -10 AC). EDIT - except that bard song stops you from taking any other actions like attacking or spellcasting, so there is that...

Note also while Blades can only get * in weapons HD has ** in Short Swords, but can't get ** in any other type of weapon (IIRC, according to the DanSimpson walkthrough he has ** in longswords if he's at level 15 when you pick him up?). The trouble is that that Mazzy starts off with *** in Short Swords, meaning that if you're doing it all legitimately you'll probably be splitting the good Short Swords between them while a whole bunch of nice other weapons go to waste. So you may want to use Shadowkeeper to move some of those proficiencies around.
That said, in terms of attacks per round it doesn't really matter what your off-hand specialization is since you only get 1 attack per round with it anyway, so it's better left for weapons with nice immunities/effects than for actual hitting power.

The only real disadvantages you get by replacing Minsc with Haer'Dalis are that Minsc is perfectly suited to wielding 2-handed swords and halberds and some of the best weapons are halberds/2H swords (Mazzy can handle this if you invest her proficiencies right), a loss of pure hitting power in exchange for versatility (not really a problem as you have all bases amply covered either way), you'll have 3 characters rather than 2 to split your spell scrolls between for memorization (with the trade-off of more spell memorization XP), and you'll miss out on quite a few entertaining dialogues, especially Jan trying to steal Boo.
The upsides are greater versatility, more spike traps, Haer'Dalis never goes berserk and attacks your own side like Minsc sometimes does, and IMO Haer'Dalis is just a more interesting character. Thanks to his high Charisma Haer'Dalis makes a great party spokesman/leader without having to use a ring slot for the Ring of Human Influence - when it's time to talk to anyone just equip him with the Blade of Roses and the Nymph Cloak and he's at 20 CHA, put him in the Helm of Glory and Plate of Balduran once he has Use any Item and that's 22 CHA (24 with the Ring of HI) out of a possible 25. Or he could just cast Friends a few times, but either way it makes buying items a whole lot cheaper and gets you better rewards. Of course, once they're at decent levels and/or have good Pickpocket scores he and Jan can usually just shoplift most of what you want anyway. Since your PC is a fighter/cleric he can't use the Blade of Roses so you'd max out at 22 without potions/spells, plus you can put his points to better use in WIS, CON, and STR, and keep his ring slots for the Ring of Holiness and his Holy Symbol.

[galraen]

some of the best weapons are halberds/2H swords (Mazzy can handle this if you invest her proficiencies right)

A three foot Hobbit wielding a six foot long sword, now there's immersion!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I'm oddly reminded of Order of the Stick #1...

It looks really funny in-game too.

[jouke1988]

It looks really funny in-game too.

I agree, tried it once, it is pantsbreaking funny