Can We All Agree That Improved Haste is...

[RPGguy]

...the single most important spell in this game (including the expansion)?

To me, there doesn't seem to be anything else close in terms of how this changes the nature of survivability...and the degree to which your characters ascend in power.

And for the purpose of any discussion, let's just agree that the Whirlwind HLA's are just a super-charged version of Improved Haste.

I think it's unbalancing. Regular Haste is fine because there is the fatigue cost after reaping the benefit.

And can you imagine your playthru's without Improved Haste or Greater Whirlwind?

[willsanders84]

I agree mate, I think that Improved Haste, Stoneskin and Ironskins are all overpowered, and I try not to use them when I can avoid it. However, it's so damn easy just to pop a stoneskin on. I think that mirror image, blur and improved invisibility are practically made redundant by stoneskin, and it's a shame. There's no need to buff a wizard, or a druid, and I think it makes things a little linear sometimes.

And Improved Haste is just too powerful, fighters should rely on potions and buffs, not one spell that makes them a whirlwind of death. It's a bit much. Give someone Celestial Fury and Belm, with the right proficiencies, cast Imp. Haste, and they're more devestating than anything else in the game. Bit much I think. It IS however a lvl 6, so quite high, but I think really it should probably be at least lvl 8. Stoneskins should at least be lvl 6 I think.

[fable]

It's a great spell, with an extremely easy counter. I'd rather have a something less powerful by way of an item, such as a pair of the Boots, than something that can be removed in a second.

[RPGguy]

Enemy AI is terrible at breaching stoneskin. I am hoping that one of the tactics mods out there improves on that. I haven't investigated yet.

Was just pondering what the game would be like without any sort of haste-without-consequence spells/potions/HLA's.

How would you deal with those Adamantite golems then? Or how about 4 Hive Mothers spawned into a small room with you. Or Dragons? Or greater wolfweres?

Would it force you to use your NPC's in a much heavier fashion? Would that ultimate enhance your experience? Would you resent Bioware if they could magically (hypothetically) take Imp'd Haste away from you?

Agree totally that if Stoneskin and Improved Haste remained in any sequel, that they should become LVL 9 or 10 (HLA) spells. Or...they should have much shorter durations and leave your THAC0/AC significantly impaired until rested.

[RPGguy]

It's a great spell, with an extremely easy counter.

What is the counter you are referring to fable? The only counters coming to mind right now are save or else spells (slow, grease, web) and it seems really tough going relying on anything that is 'save or else'

[galraen]

Well there's remove/dispel magic for a start, or slow.

The answer to your opening question by the way is a resounding no, not even close IMHO.

[RPGguy]

The answer to your opening question by the way is a resounding no, not even close IMHO.

What spell(s) exceed the tactical impact of Imp'd Haste in your opinion?

Dispel, Remove Magic and Slow are not reliable counters, either for you or against you. There was only one time in my last game that the AI dispelled my Imp'd Haste and that was a ToB pocket plane challenge, fighting a version of myself with a 2-handed sword that always hits and dispels on hit. Conversely, 'slow' allows for a save which tougher opponents seem to make. Dispel/Remove magic allows for an opportunity to avoid.

Even in a contest of Improved Malison + Slow versus Imp'd Haste, the issue is not certain.

[galraen]

What spell(s) exceed the tactical impact of Imp'd Haste in your opinion?

If I put up the full list it'd be too long, but start at Magic Missile and work up the level list. You don't even get IH until well into the game, and to be honest there are more important 6th level spells to use slots on when your fighters already have Whirlwind and Greater Whirlwind. Contingency, Death Fog, Death Spell, Globe of Invulnerability, Chain Lightning, Pierce Magic, true Sight and Summon Nishruu all take precedent for me.

Each to their own of course, but the answer to your initiaol question is no because we can't all agree. People that prefer a hack and slash approach will probably agree, but that doesn't include me.

[kmonster]

Improved haste isn't overpowered, it only doubles the physical attacks of one character, if you summon something your party benefits both in attack and defense.

Improved haste is even needed for game balance, the game is already very unbalanced in favor of arcane spellcasting, without this spell it would be even worse.

[willsanders84]

They should just have made potions of heroism better. Fighter types get no real flexibiliy or power (I play SoA - I hate ToB). I'm a fighter in my current game and after much deliberation regarding weapons, I chose short and long swords for their 'use per day' and resistance abilities.

Even then, Aerie and Jaheira are both better in melee than I am. Yoshimo probably is too, so I suppose that improved haste does have a place in the game. However, I'm with RPG guy on this, it's a bit overpowered, after all it's the biggest 'damage per round' spell in the game. In both games. And it's lvl 6.

p.s. Galraen, magic missle is NOT better than improved haste. Nor, in my opinion, is Death fog, Death spell, Globe of Invulnerability or Summon Nishruu.

[Crenshinibon]

Don't forget that Improved Haste doesn't affect all characters and is also countered by Free Action. I really do like this spell, yes, but it's not useful for everyone. The "effect" is important, so you can kick the "spell" from your book and use items.

Even thinking about it, I can't think of a single most important spell that would shine for everyone.

Even thinking of the best spell for a priest is impossible, since I would favor Holy Smite in one type of a situation and a hole slew of spells in another. I could definitely live without Improved Haste as any character, especially as a Monk.

[galraen]

I didn't say, or at least mean to say, that Magic Missile is better, but I believe it is more important, the two aren't the same.

MM is with you from the start, and, if the opposing mage doesn't have shield, MGI etc raised, then it disrupts spell casting a lot quicker than even a fighter under IH.

It's all opinion of course, and will vary according to playing style, as I said before, someone who prefers hack and slash as you apparently do, is going to be more inclined towards IH. Although how anyone can think IH is better than Death Fog baffles me completely, but each to their own.

[willsanders84]

Oh Galraen! Bloody Cornwall!

Ok, ok, Death Fog, in certain situations, is a very good spell.

I think that the thing with improved haste is; it isn't used in any hack and slash battles, even the harder ones - it isn't worth it. It tends, or I tend to use it, for the harder battles against liches and dragons, and it's there that it makes all the difference.

Ok, in those situations, the spell lower resistance is far more important than improved haste, and magic missile will get more use throughout the game than any other spell. Imp. haste is one of those 'I need to kill this thing quick' spells, and is a buff.

Ok there it is, is it the best buff spell?

But wait, against firkraag 'protection from fire' is the best buff spell, and so are stoneskin and ironskin probably. Ok so maybe it's, here it is;

THE BEST OFFENSIVE BUFF SPELL

Just wait for Crenshinibon to say 'actually it's shapechange'.

And NO Galraen, I'm NOT a hack and slash player! How dare you, that's probably the most insulting thing anyone can say to anyone else on a BG2 forum and you know it! I do enjoy it from time to time, but a nice buffed cleric/mage gets me harder.

[galraen]

What's wrong with the hack'n'slash approach? Not my cup of tea normally, but to say it's an insult is ridiculous!

against Liches and Dragons it is very useful, no question, but how often does one fight those?

As I've tried to say, there is no right or wrong here, just opinions based on different stiles of play.

[fable]

What spell(s) exceed the tactical impact of Imp'd Haste in your opinion?

Dispel, Remove Magic and Slow are not reliable counters, either for you or against you. There was only one time in my last game that the AI dispelled my Imp'd Haste and that was a ToB pocket plane challenge, fighting a version of myself with a 2-handed sword that always hits and dispels on hit.

I've found Dispel and Remove Magic, whether cast as spells or used by Carsomyr or in arrows, very effective, repeatedly. Which was my point. Not that IH is bad, it's very good, but that it has an effective counter.

All of this was argued years ago out here, by the way, spell by spell. Nobody came to any conclusions, but there was plenty of sore feeling, and after all, that's what counts most!

[RPGguy]

I agree that Improved Haste does not solve every situation. I did not mean to imply that it does. I totally understand the sentimentality towards certain spells, such as the beloved Magic Missle.

But let's look more closely at Improved Haste:

1. It has an offensive (doubles attacks per round) and defensive components (ability to evade). No other spell mentioned thus far provides such range.

2. It has shock value. It enables you to close quickly and take out threats before they can even raise their defenses in some cases. Conversely, a hasted foe making a b-line for your spellcaster is serious cause for alarm.

3. There is no arcane equivalent that improves your ability to deal damage per second until LVL 10 (improved alacrity). Some might argue that clones do this and I would agree except that the AI does a great job with dispelling illusions. Sure, you can have projected images and simulacrums cast Spell Immunity: Divination from scrolls but that takes forever in the heat of combat. Sequencers, Triggers etc accomlish this, sort of but not for any duration. There is only so much you are allowed to do per round. Improved Haste is 'fire and forget' and it lasts forever, relatively speaking

I would state that on a cost (spell casting time, spell book slot level) basis, nothing changes the fundamental nature of an encounter like this spell does.

[RPGguy]

I've found Dispel and Remove Magic, whether cast as spells or used by Carsomyr or in arrows, very effective, repeatedly.

Arrows of Dispelling and Carsomyr are extremely effective, no doubt...with anything. Very 'uber-ific'

[galraen]

It just dawned on me that I haven't mentioned the two spells I couldn't live without, Chaotic Commands and Remove Fear. IH is indeed a great spell, unless the meat shield you just cast it on starts running around in terror, or even worse, gets dire charmed and turns on you.

[RPGguy]

It just dawned on me that I haven't mentioned the two spells I couldn't live without, Chaotic Commands and Remove Fear.

In my last playthru as a Cleric Ranger, these two protections were always on...along with Death Ward and Protection from Evil 10' Radius and Ironskins. With the Amulet of Power to protect from the negative plane, there was nothing I ever had to worry about. Haer'Dalis had that harp that removed the very rare stun. All bases covered.

[Stworca]

Improved Haste is a great spell for sure, and a combo of MMM and IH makes wizzard a physical-damage beast. + any spell from haste familly makes the game 50 times easier (due to kiting)

However BG2 is a game where no spell other than dispell magic or breach is essential.

For me the single best spell is emotion!