DW rogue: bard or duelist?

[ushsta]

Bard has only one really useful dps skill, the song of courage. Duelist attack bonus is nice.

[Scottg]

Solo or Melee/Ranged attacking party?

Solo: Dualist - for the Defense bonus. (..the potential exception here is with ranged attacks where you won't expose yourself to attacks.)

Party: Bard. Song of Courage for yourself and a Melee/Ranged Party. Song of Valor for a mage-based party.

[Crenshinibon]

My advice is that you actually go duelist/bard. The reason for this is that as Scottg mentioned, the duelist class fives you a defense and an attack bonus, to to mention that Pinpoint Strike can make every hit a critical hit (which can be easily refreshed my saving and loading the game).

The bard however gives you more damage, more critical chance and whatever else you need.

The reason I suggest this is because the Assassin does not help you unless you have heavily invested in cunning and the Beast Master is bad because when your pet kills an enemy, you don't get all the experience that you could.

[Scottg]

I'd add a few things to this..

IF your are primarily interested in specifically a *backstab* character - ie. using a melee attack from the rear of the opponent.. THEN I would still select the Assassin. BUT (with the exception of Awakenings), I wouldn't recommend a backstab character.. (see "Practical Notes" below).

Exploit Weakness is Cunning dependent.. but it typically only adds between 3 and 11 damage per attack depending on your Cunning score. And even then ONLY from a Backstab.

Lacerate on the other hand adds 25% total damage from a backstab (over a slightly extended period) and isn't based on Cunning.

Feast of the Fallen is also quite nice UNLESS you use the mod that adds stamina potions to Origins. (..particularly in conjunction with a Dualists Pinpoint Attack.) Again however, it requires a backstab.

Additionally IF you take that character through to Awakenings then Lacerate really "jumps" with the Shadow class.



Practical Notes on Backstab characters:

Frankly I find that Backstabs are pretty rare unless I have one or more mages in the party paralyzing opponents. Without those mages it's more about the occasional Dirty Fighting, circle around to back of opponent (until you have Coupe de Grace), backstab maneuver. Good against a single opponent, not terribly worthwhile against multiple opponents.

Even in the context of delaying your attack within a party context against a group of opponents, a single backstab usually draws so much threat that at least that opponent will immediately turn around to face you. Often several other opponents will turn around to face you as well. (Obviously with Awakenings and Flicker this is no longer the case, but even then it's a very occasional use, and it takes some time to achieve Flicker in Awakenings.)

Because of all these problems, I don't recommend a Backstab character for Origins - even for a "solo" run. A conceptual "Assassin" build (usually solo, or often having the party "wait") is far better of with an Archery Talent build. Just that additional bit of distance between yourself and your "mark", allows you that better defensive "edge".

Note that a Dualist's Pinpoint Strike will still work with Archery as long as you have a melee weapon equiped when you activate Pinpoint Strike (..then swapping-out to Bow or Crossbow).

[ushsta]

I am going with a cunning setup. Finally figured out what it takes for rogues to dps. My Lelianna invariably sucked in that department until I respecced into a high cunning-dependent spec. Also, a nice trick listed in a rogue guide I dled from Gamespot suggests coup de grace with plenty of paralysis runes slotted.
Interestingly, I discovered that even at the end of Awakening a DW warrior seemed to do slightly better with dual striking, which of course makes no sense for a melee rogue. Rogues can crit pretty much 100% of the time.

[Crenshinibon]

Note that the crits from Coupe De grace do NOT count as backstabs. Also, Feast of the Fallen will not refund ANY stamina unless the target is killed with a backstab.

I personally think that Lacerate is useless, since you shouldn't be waiting on them to die, and the damage it provides isn't that significant, considering how long a target is alive for.

As Scottg, you want a ranged character. In Awakening a dexterity based archer will have amazing defense and will be hit quire rarely, with Accuracy, he will not only hit like a truck (well over two hundred damage per hit) but he will have a critical strike almost every attack.

The thing with a Cunning build is that it gains great damage (I think mine did over five hundred damage per backstab at the end of Origins), at the cost of survivability.

[ushsta]

I am thinking about balancing cunning and dex. There is no need to be hitting anything for 500 in this game. And the archers in Awakening are plain corny. The Howe character gave my dw warrior a run for his money.

I want to stick with a city-elf assassin type. Doesn't actually have to be an assassin. A bard-duelist actually sounds romantic in a Dumas-esque sense. Too bad the game offers no substantial story options based on PC specs.

[GoldDragon]

A Cunning Score of 31 (or greater) is best, I've noticed, then you can dump into something else. IF you dump your skills into the rogue talents. Level 4 Stealth, level 4 manipulation (trap disarming, I don't remember the full name) adds to this.

With level 4, it will add 40 points to cunning when dealing with that particular skill (steath, disarming traps). Once you reach this point, and throw in Combat movement (or whatever the name of the skill is that gives you a wider backstab area), stealth kills become easier. And only a few Big Bosses (such as the Archdemon itself) will require more cunning (I suspect a grand total of 99-101 or more) to strike from stealth.

Side note: the Persuade/Intimidate skills work the same way. If you dump 31 points in cunning, and get yourself the level 4, even a mage with 10 str will appear fairly intimidating Tho why you would want to do that with a mage...

[Scottg]

Note that the crits from Coupe De grace do NOT count as backstabs.

Yup.. I'd forgotten that. Counts as "backstab" for damage modifiers from equipment, in other words a critical hit, but not as true backstabs for Assassin talents.

Speaking of Critical hits.. first attacks from Stealth count as critical hits.. which makes a stealth-based archer particularly effective.

[Crenshinibon]

Not as effective as you'd think, not against a group in a building. Also, in Awakening, practically every hit is a critical hit.

As such, I kind of like warrior based archers more than rogue based ones. They can actually take advantage of death blow for a great supply of stamina, and a bunch of fun warrior-only abilities, which act really well with ranged attacks.

[ushsta]

Every hit is a critical hit if you are an archer, not warrior dps. Dual striking still does more damage, though the difference becomes cosmetic toward the end due to the fact that you can get the 100% crit damage dagger in Awakening and such.

Also, by boosting cunning you buff your damage as well as saving yourself from having to spend skill points on utility skills instead of dps.

I am curious, arrow of slaying crits automatically. Does using it from stealth do anything for its damage?

Finally, what you need for backstabbing is a tank with a taunt skill and a heal bot to keep the tank alive.

[Scottg]

I am curious, arrow of slaying crits automatically. Does using it from stealth do anything for its damage?

No.

[Tenser]

Well, I always play Rogue like this:

- Str 20, Dex 30, Cun maxed
- Dual weapon style
- Assassin, Duelist

I never have trouble with keeping the mobs on my tank, but then again my tank looks like this:

- Str 42 (with items), rest Dex
- Shield style, Threaten, Taunt
- Templar in Templar armor (40% magic resistance)

[Crenshinibon]

The reason I go for Dexterity is because I almost always solo, so without a tank and everyone focusing on a single character, defense is of the utmost importance. In my opinion, outside of a party environment, cunning just isn't worth it.

[Scottg]

Not as effective as you'd think, not again a group in a building.

The reason I go for Dexterity is because I almost always solo, so without a tank and everyone focusing on a single character, defense is of the utmost importance. In my opinion, outside of a party environment, cunning just isn't worth it.

Yes, I've tried this out again..

The remedy is the use of traps to disable attackers.

Gaming like this is tedious, and it constantly reminds me why I almost always go with a mage - they are just so much more powerful.

[Crenshinibon]

Honestly, I've never used traps. Poisons? Yes. Traps? Never. I think it's kind of wasteful, especially in boss battles.

I'm soloing with an Archer right now, which is okay, but, my solo games with the warriors and the traditional mage were much more fun. In general, I can't say that I am fond of rogues in this game, which is unusual, since most everyone here knows my undying love for bards.

[Stworca]

I didn't use traps for long either. I mean ; sure, they worked fine on melee trash mobs and could be fine at times, but any monster that could be killed that way could also be killed 10 times faster with any other tactic. (because the game is just so easy)

I used them more in NWN2 : SoZ, where tactics mattered sometimes. (unless you had 2 warlocks spam eldrich blasts, tentacles and skeletons)

[Scottg]

Honestly, I've never used traps. Poisons? Yes. Traps? Never. I think it's kind of wasteful, especially in boss battles.

Well then you have something new for the game!


No, they aren't wasteful.. or rather in the right context they aren't wasteful.


Like Stworca I don't generally use them for damage purposes, rather for disabling "mobs". Particularly those getting close to your position.

You do need a decent Cunning score and the right combination of talents to pull it off though.


Just a simple spring trap (which isn't at all costly) layered in groups is rather effective.


Lure traps are also rather useful.


Large Claw Traps are also useful on stronger opponents, and the 150 extra damage can be nice as well.

[Crenshinibon]

But say, you're soloing against Branka or against a large for such as a High Dragon or maybe the Broodmother, would the traps still work? For the same duration on all of them, and would they have any effect on the last two?

From my experience, the stealth and grenade combination will kill just about everything, but the traps, they seem to be less useful against bosses, which is where my concern lies.

[GoldDragon]

Top Lure, Fire Traps, Frost Traps, Shock Traps, Grease Traps, Acid Traps, LArge Traps, Leg-grabbing Traps....

I ended up destroying All but 2 of Cauthren's Companions AND knocking her health down to less than 25% with them.

So don't go saying that they don't get the job done.