Want to try a monk

[ushsta]

Found some conflicting info as far as stat progression. Some favor str/dex, others str/wisdom. Suggestions? And what feats to work toward?

[Tricky]

One nets you Reflex saves, while the other gives you Willpower waves. Other than that, they progress your AC at the same rate.

Wisdom might be good if you want to focus on a Quivering Palm build, or just like good spell saves in general. Dex might be best spend on an Unarmed Strike Finesse build, to let Dex decide the attack roll rather than Str. There is a feat that also lets Wisdom affect the damage roll, but I forget if it was included in NWN2.

If AC is your one and only interest, then I would recommend dividing points over both Wisdom and Dexterity during character creation. Focussing on one means the point cost will be higher above a score of 14 or so, leaving you with less attribute points to increase your AC. After creation though, they can be put in either.

[AvatarOfLight]

The Wisdom for attack rolls you mention is for ranged weapons only in NWN2 and it's called Zen Archery.

[Tricky]

Ah yes. Thanks.

Would you happen to know if quivering palm is a touch attack too? I forgot. It would be a reason to go the Str route, or finesse touch attack.

[Scottg]

Found some conflicting info as far as stat progression. Some favor str/dex, others str/wisdom. Suggestions? And what feats to work toward?

I've tried just about everything.. and for a pure monk this would be my choice for NWN2 OC and MOTB:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/never ... 11738.html

Here is a basic template I've just done for a Strength-based Monk:

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=52529&version=1

Alternatively here is a Sacred Fist build:

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=35020&version=1

[ushsta]

Don't want an orc. What starting stats for a wood elf and human, please?
With a wood elf I could go with 16/16/12/10/15/10 or 16/14/14/10/14/10
With a human I could go 16/14/14/10/14/10 just like a wood elf. Makes me wonder if I should go with the humie for the free feat.

[Scottg]

Don't want an orc. What starting stats for a wood elf and human, please?

It's not an Orc.. its a HALF Orc.


Wood Elf:
19
15
12
8
14
8

There you are sacrificing Constitution for Charisma. You don't need Charisma for this Character, but you do need Constitution. The 15 in Dexterity doesn't net you anything useful.. unless you only have access to a odd-number Dexterity modifier. (..and the 8 in intelligence doesn't hurt you when compared to a 9.)

Humans.. they don't have the correct attribute bonuses for this build. Doing so results in a substantially inferior build, both theoretically and in practice (..which I'm personally well aware of).

The only other races to consider are Grey Orc and Earth Gensai, both of which have a one level penalty. The Grey Orc is actually the best solely from an attribute point of view. The Earth Gensai (attribute-wise) is just a bit different than a Half-Orc.

Earth Gensai 1:

19
14
16
9
12
6

Here you trade +1AC from Wisdom for additional Hitpoints. Will save is a bit worse, fortitude save is a bit better.

Earth Gensai 2:

20
14
14
8
12
6

Here you are getting an additional +1 to attack and +1 to damage.. depending on the character level. This is more significant than the loss of +1 AC. It's also better with Knockdowns. Of the two builds, this one is better depending on character level.


The Grey Orc is the best.. the Half-Orc is second best, but a bit easier to play without the level penalty. 20 Strength starter Earth Gensai is in it's own way every bit as good.

IMO if you don't want an Orc or a Half-Orc then go with the 20 Strength Earth Gensai. (..the racial stoneskin can help compensate at lower levels for the loss in AC.)

[Scottg]

Human could do:

18
12
14
8
14
8

or

18
14
14
8
12
8

WITH an added feat of Luck of Heroes at 1st level.. which fortifies your saves and AC effectively offsetting your AC loss in either Dexterity or Wisdom. (..note that of the two the first is better.. i.e. it's better to have Wisdom than Dexterity in this build.)

The problem with this is that your attack and damage is delayed a fair bit when compared to a Half-Orc.

At 4th level (with no level penalty) a starter strength of 19 becomes 20 - adding +1 attack and +1 damage, and it turns out to be pretty significant in practice. It's also significant with Knockdown. Humans can't do this.

[ushsta]

Don't have a grey orc. Going with a wood elf 18/16/12/8/15/8. Will raise wisdom to 16 at lvl 4 and concentrate on str thereafter. In the endgame the difference between 19+5=24 and 18+4=22 will be cosmetic. I am concerned about the effect of low charisma and intel on the dialog in the game and diplomacy rolls.

Should I bother with luck of heroes?

[Scottg]

Don't have a grey orc. Going with a wood elf 18/16/12/8/15/8. Will raise wisdom to 16 at lvl 4 and concentrate on str thereafter. In the endgame the difference between 19+5=24 and 18+4=22 will be cosmetic. I am concerned about the effect of low charisma and intel on the dialog in the game and diplomacy rolls.

Should I bother with luck of heroes?

If you could get it at any time, yes. But for a pure Monk you can't, so no.

Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave.. in that order. You don't even need Improved Critical at level 12, but it's advisable (for later in the build having 2 rings of regen). Make sure you get the ring from Judge Olaf in the Temple at the Merchant district of Neverwinter when you get there.

Pick-up Elanee as soon as possible.. pick-up Khelgar, wait on helping the others up in the tavern. Proceed to Fort Locke, and move from there to Highcliff - at that point you'll get Elanee. You should get to her that quickly so that: you get her at an earlier level so that you get to select her feat, AND access to Barkskin and all the level 2 stat boosting spells. Then come back and do the tavern, the Lizard area, the missions from Fort Locke, etc..

Dialog skills will always be a problem for a build like this.. A low Charisma doesn't mean a whole lot.. -3 at it's worst. The lack of Intelligence however is - the more Intelligence bonus, the more skill points. The more skill points, the more points you can put into Diplomacy and other dialog skills. IMO for a character like this I don't even try - you don't miss-out on much as a result.

If you are that worried about dialog skills then consider the Sacred Fist build I linked to, or better still - consider a Sorcerer with Able Learner and one Rogue level (..it's a lot more fun to play to). Even a Bard or a Favored Soul can have excellent Diplomacy (..if not Intimidate).

[ushsta]

Monk unarmed crit chance ever goes up from 20 rolls? Should I consider picking up a couple of kukris or invest in unarmed focus/spec?

[Scottg]

Monk unarmed crit chance ever goes up from 20 rolls? Should I consider picking up a couple of kukris or invest in unarmed focus/spec?

You can get 19/20 from Improved Critical Unarmed Attack.. and the Monk ring has this feat.

It would be Kama's, not Kukris, and that's a different build. The only time you should use a weapon for this build is if you need elemental damage and you don't have gloves with the proper elemental damage - say for a coupe de grace on a Troll, which requires acid or fire.

Yes, you could add Weapon Focus Unarmed Attack.. especially considering your 18 instead of 19 Strength. With that in mind when?

Power Critical, Cleave, Weapon Focus Unarmed Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Critical Unarmed Attack.. in that order. You'll still have your cleaves (though not as effectively), and you'll get your +1 Attack early enough (at level 6) to be really useful.

[ushsta]

I vaguely recall an item, bracers I think, which gives both unarmed focus and specialzation.

Incidentally, what's the kama build? Or a staff build?

[Scottg]

I vaguely recall an item, bracers I think, which gives both unarmed focus and specialzation.

There are no gloves or bracers in the OC like that..


Here is the ring (Olaf in the temple sells):

Neverwinter Nights 2 @ GameBanshee

Here is the belt Pap sells (right next to the temple where Olaf is):

Neverwinter Nights 2 @ GameBanshee


The ring has 2 things going for it over the belt..

1. It's a LOT less expensive.

2. It doesn't take up the belt slot, which is the only equipment slot that significantly accommodates Strength bonus enhancements.


Note the requirements for crafting a +8 Strength belt:

Thieves-Guild.Net - Your Portal to everything Neverwinter!


You can have Elanee, Qara, Sand, or Zhjaeve doing your crafting here once you get to chapter II (though Zhjaeve isn't available until late in chapter 2). They can all have Bull's Strength in their spell list, and can have a feat expended on Craft Wondrous Item. The only real limitation is access to the gem "King's Tear" - which you won't have access to until chapter II (..unless you cheat). If it weren't for that limitation you could do so with either Elanee or Qara much earlier.

[Scottg]

Incidentally, what's the kama build? Or a staff build?

A staff build is NEARLY an utter waste. It's 1d6, doesn't provide an off-hand attack, and doesn't provide access to a shield.


A kama build is quite a bit different. Look to a "Kaze no Kama" build type for reference - there are a number of different builds based on this. Almost none are built solely as Monks..and they pay a penalty in doing so.

Basically a kama build leverages damage modifiers in the weapons, AND an increased number of attacks from the off-hand.

Because it's a dual-weapon build it requires Dexterity and the Dual Weapon Feats.. this leaves Strength pretty much missing in action.. the replacement is again elemental damage and increased number of attacks per turn.


There are however a LOT of problems to a build like this:

1. they tend to be pretty poor at lower levels.

2. they tend to be less useful against "mobs" generally.

3. they won't have access to significant elemental damage weapons until AT LEAST level 10 (when you can enchant elemental damage).

Thieves-Guild.Net - Your Portal to everything Neverwinter!

4. they don't provide that many extra attacks compared to an Unarmed Attack Monk. (..at least not in the OC.)

5. they don't fully leverage criticals.

7. they are "feat" hogs.

etc..



First lets look at the weapon damage for Kama's vs unarmed attacks:

Kama:
Kama - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

Unarmed Attack damage progression:

Monk - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

..they are the same until level 3. At level 12 the Unarmed Attack BASE damage is double that. By level 20 - it's almost 3 times as much.

Still, you can enchant enhancement damage into a Kama in the OC, but can't get that in a pair of gloves. In the OC you'll only get elemental damage in gloves - and even then only as much as 2d6. A Kama could ultimately have an enhancement of +5 PLUS 2d6 elemental (..or even 1d6 elemental and 2d6 Evil). BUT you are necessarily restricted to *when* you can craft the enhancement bonus and how much of it you can enchant.

Thieves-Guild.Net - Your Portal to everything Neverwinter!


Now lets look at feats required:

1. Weapon Finesse
2. Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
4. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Weapon Finesse is required for leveraging your Dexterity for Attack numbers.

Two-Weapon Fighting requires a base Dexterity of 15 to select the feat. Improved Two-Weapon requires a base Dexterity of 17 to select the feat.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting requires a base Dexterity of 19 to select the feat.

Two-Weapon Fighting provides precisely ONE additional attack per round at your modified attack. "Improved" provides one more, but at a -5. Greater provides a third additional attack, but at a -10.

It's entirely possible that your second attack (from "Improved") will only "hit" less than 50% of the time at lower levels.. once your BAB improves and you have some additional attack bonus, that second attack will be far more effective - BUT it takes a while. The third additional attack (from "Greater") takes even longer..


IF the off-hand attack leveraged your Flurry improvement.. then it would be far more worthwhile because your Flurry attacks are at your full BAB (..minus 2 until you hit level 5, and minus 1 to level 8, and no penalty thereafter).

Here is the BAB at purist Monk class level 12 (which includes Greater Flurry), WITH Improved Two Weapon Fighting:

Main Hand: 9/9/9/4
Off-Hand: 9/4

Even with some attack bonus improvements both of those two "4" BAB attacks are going to miss - a LOT.

EDIT: it's modified due to two-weapon attack penalty - meaning it's really:

Main Hand: 7/7/7/2
Off-Hand: 7/2

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Dual-wield

vs.

Unarmed Attack:

9/9/9/4


Now let's look at damage..

Figure +3 enhancement and 2d6 of elemental damage per Kama. The 2d6 averages 6 damage. Add-in the weapon damage average of 3 (from 1d6 for the kama). That's a net base average of 12 damage per hit.

Figure on hitting with all BAB "7" attacks (which is unrealistic), and only one BAB "2" attack, for an average of 5 hits.

5 * 12 damage = 60 per round.

Unarmed Attack

No enhancement damage bonus, but 2d6 of elemental damage from "Greater Wrym" gloves. It's 2d6 for Unarmed attack at level 12 averaging 6. Assume that all "9" BAB attacks hit and the "4" doesn't. That's 3 hits per round:

3 * 12 damage = 36 per round.

(..of course because of the disparity in attack numbers due to the -2 Two-Weapon attack penalty, the Kama attacks won't "hit" as often, nor will they "critical" as often as the Unarmed Attacks.)



THEN add-in strength bonuses to each calculation:

Note that because attack numbers are so important that the Kama wielding character will enhance DEXTERTITY, NOT STRENGTH - and this includes belts!

Figure the Dexterity build has +2 Strength bonus (for a 14..which even then is a bit unusual).

Figure the Unarmed Attack Strength build has a base bonus of +6 and a belt bonus of +2 = +8

Kama attacker with Strength bonus =

5 * (12 + 2) = 70 per round.

Unarmed attacker with Strength bonus =

3 * (12 + 8) = 60 per round.



THEN add-in the contribution of criticals..


Kama build has Kama damage + enhancement damage + Strength bonus. That's:

6 (full weapon damage) + 3 enhancement + 2 Strength bonus = 11 * 2 = 22 damage on a critical.

Unarmed Attack build with unarmed attack damage + Strength bonus. That's:

12 (full weapon damage) + 8 Strength bonus = 20 * 2 = 40 damage on a critical.



Then *net* difference then isn't hugely different between the 2 builds, each has their benefits and their detriments, and it is level dependent.

The Strength Unarmed Attack build will lack the AC improvements, but the Kama build will lack in feats - particularly with respect to Cleaves..

[ushsta]

I am just full of questions. That sacred fist build looks really interesting. What do the 2 levels in cleric give you?

Incidentally, Elanee has a nifty long lasting lvl 2 spell which gives you 1-8 fire damage at least for main hand, don't know about offhand.

[Scottg]

I am just full of questions. That sacred fist build looks really interesting. What do the 2 levels in cleric give you?

Incidentally, Elanee has a nifty long lasting lvl 2 spell which gives you 1-8 fire damage at least for main hand, don't know about offhand.

It *is* really interesting. :mischief:

The 2 Cleric levels provide you the domain feats (Blind Fight & Luck of Heroes) and Divine Might and Divine Shield. It also adds fast access to some of the 1st levels spells, and a greater variety of 1st level spells. For instance the Favored Soul doesn't select Protection from Alignment.. but the Cleric levels provide this. Additionally that spell lasts for an hour per level, so that's more than enough.

The *problem* with a character like this is it's a "buffer".. Khelgar could have everyone killed by the time you finish casting your spell and feat "buffs". And once a Strength Monk hits level 12 that character can do it even better than Khelgar.

Really though, it's decent without buffs after several levels, and good with only a few buffs. Lower levels however virtually require them to be at all effective.

At higher levels it also has offensive spell casting. And at at higher levels several of those buffs will be cast as "persistent".

I'd put it like this:

The Strength Monk is a Tank.. but any tank can be busted.

The Sacred Fist build *can* be a Tank, or a significantly improved version of a Tank - and if it's played well it's very difficult to bust it.



That fire damage only works on weapons and creature weapons.. it also doesn't last very long (..unless it's persisted) and it doesn't stack with other sources of fire damage. But yeah, it's good for a Kama build - particularly at early levels where you don't have elemental damage to craft.

[ushsta]

Playing a favored soul now, they definitely get protection from alignment.

[Scottg]

Playing a favored soul now, they definitely get protection from alignment.

They *can* get it.. there is a difference. Just like any Sorcerer - you pick and choose which spells you get, and you don't get that many.

Frankly if you are playing an FS, I'd skip the Sacred Monk.. it's not that different. Worse early on, a bit better later. Same basic spell grouping to select from.. but it *does* matter which spells you select (..which is why I went into this in detail on the Sacred Monk build notes).

[ushsta]

One thing I don't understand about the posted builds is the insistance on using great cleave whose usefullness beyond the early game is suspect. I can foresee a situation where a bunch of mobs were softened up by a couple of firebrands in which case you may get more out of it than simple cleave, but it would be very inconsistent at best. Aren't there better feats?

Also, the point of playing a priest-type/monk is for the sake of playing an interesting fantasy archetype as well as getting a better meleer than an FS has been (only lvl 8 but still).