Was Sapkowski influenced by Heraclitus?

Nenad · Post by **Nenad** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:29 am

The Cult of the Eternal Fire reminds me a lot of Heraclitus' philosophy. I'm just interested am I right?

Do you see a connection too? Is it possible that Sapkowski was influenced by Heraclitus?

Dr.Dr3aM · Post by **Dr.Dr3aM** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:48 am

Well, I'm not exactly sure they mean the same, though, it could be my lack of knowledge on the subject.

Heraclitus' philosophy revolves around constant movement, hence the fire is the symbol of his philosophy, as it represents never-ending change of shapes. "You cannot step twice in the same stream". It is as such just an association to his philosophy structure, much like water was to Thales, air to Anaximenes etc.

The Cult of the Eternal Fire has more of a religious meaning in The Last Wish's universe, so I doubt they were that much connected. They regarded the "holy flames" as a way to exorcise and free your sinful body, as the fire shall consume the sins. Or something along those lines The Reverend was mumbling.

That's how I look on that, but you know, there's always some philosophy involved, anywhere.

Nenad · Post by **Nenad** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:18 am

Dr.Dr3aM wrote:Well, I'm not exactly sure they mean the same, though, it could be my lack of knowledge on the subject.

Heraclitus' philosophy revolves around constant movement, hence the fire is the symbol of his philosophy, as it represents never-ending change of shapes. "You cannot step twice in the same stream". It is as such just an association to his philosophy structure, much like water was to Thales, air to Anaximenes etc.

The Cult of the Eternal Fire has more of a religious meaning in The Last Wish's universe, so I doubt they were that much connected. They regarded the "holy flames" as a way to exorcise and free your sinful body, as the fire shall consume the sins. Or something along those lines The Reverend was mumbling.

That's how I look on that, but you know, there's always some philosophy involved, anywhere.

First off, thanks for the reply, wasn't sure anyone would answer my topic.

Yup, there's philosophy anywhere, but I'm trying to figure out is it a coincidence or a reference? I would like it to be a reference, but I'm not sure and I would like a confirmation from someone who knows a lot about both The Wither and Heraclitus. I have forgotten a lot from The Witcher (first game and first book), but I do know a lot about Heraclitus. So if anyone could tell me as much as they can about The Cult of Eternal Fire, I think I could figure out the rest on my own.

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:55 pm

I don't see any connection between the Order and Heraclitus. I think that the order draws all it's symbolisms from the medieval Templar and Knightly orders and medieval/european folklore. In fact fire was the symbol of purity and clenasing, and the rose the mark of the Seventh Son of the Senventh Son, a very gifted and chosen individual often believed in folklore to be born with magic powers (see Alvin/Grandmaster).

Nenad · Post by **Nenad** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:31 am

Elevoros wrote:I don't see any connection between the Order and Heraclitus. I think that the order draws all it's symbolisms from the medieval Templar and Knightly orders and medieval/european folklore. In fact fire was the symbol of purity and clenasing, and the rose the mark of the Seventh Son of the Senventh Son, a very gifted and chosen individual often believed in folklore to be born with magic powers (see Alvin/Grandmaster).

But, I'm talking about the Cult of the Eternal Fire :/

QuenGalad · Post by **QuenGalad** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:39 am

Well, the guy is considerably well-read, but he's very fond of showing off, too. So you can be sure that if he was planning to actually draw on Heraclitus' philosophy, he'd be rubbing the fact in your face. Subtlety is not really one of his strong points.

Nenad · Post by **Nenad** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:47 am

I have recently searched the web about this subject and found something, but it's a bit of a spoil for The Witcher 2 (game):

(

Spoiler

I heard someone (in TW2) says "pantha rei", and that's (wrongly; I have stuidied Heraclitus, long story) attributed to Heraclitus.

)

This maybe answers my original question.

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:57 am

QuenGalad wrote:Well, the guy is considerably well-read, but he's very fond of showing off, too. So you can be sure that if he was planning to actually draw on Heraclitus' philosophy, he'd be rubbing the fact in your face. Subtlety is not really one of his strong points.

This.
If he was drawing on anyone's philosophy, the first page in the book would state it.

He's not too subtle.

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:05 am

Sorry I got a little confused there, with Order of the Flaming Rose and the Cult of the Eternal Fire...they are supposed to be close aren't they, like the Catholic Church and the Knights Templar? (before all the unpleasantries)

Anyway, I think that the works of Heraclitus have only reached us in fragments at best through references of other writters. We don't have a coherent image or structure of his philosophy. So yeah the basic theme about the eternal flame is there. But the element of conflict as an element of creation? I don't think that we have enough information about the Cult in order to know wether Sapkowski is mentioning Heraclitus or not.

He could simply be using the "Fire" as the symbol of Mankind, it's progress, ingenuity and superiority (over the hostile natural elements and the filthy nonhumans)

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:13 am

Nenad wrote:I have recently searched the web about this subject and found something, but it's a bit of a spoil for The Witcher 2 (game):

(
Spoiler
I heard someone (in TW2) says "pantha rei", and that's (wrongly; I have stuidied Heraclitus, long story) attributed to Heraclitus.
)

This maybe answers my original question.

Ta panta rei, midepote kat'auto menein. (Τα πάντα ρεί μηδέποτε κατ'αυτό μένειν) Everything flows, nothing ever stays the same.

I don't think that I can see that ideology of "change" in the Cult of the eternal Fire.

Nenad · Post by **Nenad** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:34 am

I'll conclude for myself that there are some things in The Witcher universe that are similar to/from Heraclitus but that's it. Makes sense since as Elevoros said "We don't have a coherent image or structure of his philosophy." and that's true.

Too bad, I was hoping it was more. That would have been cool. Love the fire image on the cult priests' robes tho. Thanks for the help guys.