I can't decide if I want to go 6/14 or 7/13 with that build.
One is a bit more powerful force wise, the other gives me another +1d6 sneak attack bonus.
With Flurry and Master Speed his gives on avarage a +12 damage bonus which one should not underestimate for a Duelist Saberstyle.
With Scoundrel instead of Scout you have a decent melee potential at least.
And before you berate me on Sneak attack as Consular, with such a high DC, Stasis, Force Choke, Push, Whirlwind, Force Wave there are enough ways to keep people stunned for more sneak attack fun.
Flurry doesn't leave you as vulnerable as Critical strike does.
Additionally getting Implant level 3 will give me another +4 Dex with in conjunction with good starting Dex,Master Duelist, other items and Force Valor should beef Def enough that very few enemies can hit me regularly.
Reflex safe is good enough for grenades and other Force Powers can be nullified by Force Resistance/Immunity.
Many poisons are dealt via melee damage so high def counters them.
Only exception: Some traps/mines and poison grenades but thats what Heal is for.
Scoudrel/Consular question
If going for Sneak Attack, stick with TWF: more Sneak Attack hits that way.
I'd go for 6/14, since an extra Jedi level far outweighs an average 3.5 damage under certain conditions.
However, Scout 4/Jedi 16 is superior by far, since Flurry is a better feat-chain, and as stated, the Implant line is so good you'll take it anyway.
I'd go for 6/14, since an extra Jedi level far outweighs an average 3.5 damage under certain conditions.
However, Scout 4/Jedi 16 is superior by far, since Flurry is a better feat-chain, and as stated, the Implant line is so good you'll take it anyway.
I am sorry that I have to disagree here.GawainBS wrote:If going for Sneak Attack, stick with TWF: more Sneak Attack hits that way.
I'd go for 6/14, since an extra Jedi level far outweighs an average 3.5 damage under certain conditions.
However, Scout 4/Jedi 16 is superior by far, since Flurry is a better feat-chain, and as stated, the Implant line is so good you'll take it anyway.
Scout/JC isn't superior imho, it's a mainly defensive build which offers slightly more Hitpoints and slightly better saves albeit the most important one is reflex and that is just as strong as Scoundrel. The best part about Scout is the two extra Feats for Implants and that's about it.
Scoundrel/JC is much better at offence and in defence against anything which requires an attack roll especially when force powers aren't working the 4 extra AC off set the slightly lower hitpoints easily and you can still get Implants especially if you use he Start Up Mod which frees up every preset feat bar the class feats like Scoundrel Luck and let you redistribute them as you see fit but even without there aren't too many crucial feats you need. Dueling 3, Flurry 3 and Implant 3 suffice and afaik you should be able to get 9 feats even if you do not use the Start Up Mod you should be able to get all crucial ones. If I am wrong you can easily stay at Advanced Dueling it is the least important of the 3 feat groups which are good for a JC.
I am against DW on JC on general because not only are they already at least lacking up to +5 attack rolls compared to any Guardian unless you use Soldier as first class for your JC but since you use so few strength in general you won't get out that much from it especially when you conider additional -2 on attack rolls even at master level and then counting in another -1 from Master Flurry or -3 from Master PA.
Furthermore Flurry is afaik inferior to PA or CS for a DW style unless your Sneak Attack gets really high like 6d6 or more.
Also it is 3.5 damage per hit per level of SA since afaik SA counts for all attacks in the round you break stealth or the opponent is disabled.
That becomes 4*3.5 damage for a full attack round with Master Speed and Flurry leading to an extra 14 damage per round. That's quite good and it can add up fast.
So what does the Scoundrel/Consular really lose compared to the Scout/JC? A meaningless amount of 8 VP, derived from 4 * 2 VP from he first 4 Scout levels.
Extra Investment for Combat Implant Feat but there isn't much you REALLY need anyway. Even CI 2 is good enough to provide a decent bonus.
Better Fort and Will saves but again it's just a +3 modifier as difference and with Force Resistance/Immunity you have enough defence against most Force Powers and the other dangerous threat are grenades but the Ref save is just on par wih the Scout variant. That leaves Poison grenades and Poison attacks but that's what Force Heal is for. Also poison attacks delivered via normal attacks are much less likely to hit you due to SL.
On the plus side you are significantly harder to hit plus you have a vastly higher damage potential even if you only get 3d6or 4d6 SA it simply adds up fast and with Force Powers like Stasis, Whirlwind or Choke line and due to the JCs terrific DC on force powers you get a lot of SA opportunities and you also get more Skill Points albeit it's a bit harder to get Repair up but since it's a class skill for the JC this isn't too much of a problem.
By the way I like this stat distribution for RP reasons: 10/14/10/14/14/15
Master TWF only is -2 on the offhand attack, mainhand attack is unaffected.
It enhances your Sneak Attack, since more can land. Moreover, Double Sabers add 1.5x STR to your main attack, including the extra ones from Force Speed and Flurry.
Flurry is the superior feat chain, as long as your main attack does enough damage on its own. Again, if you're going for Sneak Attack, extra attacks lets you play to this.
In regular d20, Sneak Attack doesn't get multiplied on a crit, so CS doesn't play to a sneak attack build's strength. Even less so if you're going all DEX (which, given your stat array and focus on DEF, I assume you do?), since this means your saber has less fixed damage to multiply.
I found the +4 DEF to be next to meaningless halfway through the game: if you're going all-DEF and DEX, you'll be unhittable without that +4, and if you go the STR-route, you'll tend to kill things before they can threaten you.
By the way, Scoundrel 4-6/Counselar 16-14 gets 8 feats at the most, and a Scout variant 11, if you count Implant lvl 2 and Flurry I as feats you'd take anyway. That opens up Implant lvl 3, the Toughness line (which is very good), and Weapon Focus: Lightsaber. As a minor benefit, Scouts get to use Medium Armour IIRC, which makes a difference on Taris.
Anyway, you play a Scoundrel, and wanted to know lvl 6 or 7. I say 6 again, because Sneak Attacks are too situational to warrant the loss of an extra Force Power and extra Force Points.
BTW, don't be sorry for disagreeing if you have arguments, which you do.
It enhances your Sneak Attack, since more can land. Moreover, Double Sabers add 1.5x STR to your main attack, including the extra ones from Force Speed and Flurry.
Flurry is the superior feat chain, as long as your main attack does enough damage on its own. Again, if you're going for Sneak Attack, extra attacks lets you play to this.
In regular d20, Sneak Attack doesn't get multiplied on a crit, so CS doesn't play to a sneak attack build's strength. Even less so if you're going all DEX (which, given your stat array and focus on DEF, I assume you do?), since this means your saber has less fixed damage to multiply.
I found the +4 DEF to be next to meaningless halfway through the game: if you're going all-DEF and DEX, you'll be unhittable without that +4, and if you go the STR-route, you'll tend to kill things before they can threaten you.
By the way, Scoundrel 4-6/Counselar 16-14 gets 8 feats at the most, and a Scout variant 11, if you count Implant lvl 2 and Flurry I as feats you'd take anyway. That opens up Implant lvl 3, the Toughness line (which is very good), and Weapon Focus: Lightsaber. As a minor benefit, Scouts get to use Medium Armour IIRC, which makes a difference on Taris.
Anyway, you play a Scoundrel, and wanted to know lvl 6 or 7. I say 6 again, because Sneak Attacks are too situational to warrant the loss of an extra Force Power and extra Force Points.
BTW, don't be sorry for disagreeing if you have arguments, which you do.
Thanks for your input. 
As to the 4 armor from SL, I am playing against a seriously beefed up Malak in the end and my Scout/JC had serious problems against the two terrentateks and I assume that this new Malak will hit more often than previously.
As to DW, you are forgetting I won't have any good strength score so the 1.5 multiplier on a saberstaff is practially wasted.
I am also a person who tends to prefers defence over offence.
As to the Scout having more feats than the Scoundrel, that is true and a good strength of the class, but especially with the Start Up Mod you can just reach 3 in Duelig, Flurry and Implants. Anything else is luxury imho albeit I admit useful of corse.
With a good Dex Score Light Armor in Taris is just as good as medium armor.
Critical Strike is indeed not a good feat because the JC offers enough way to stun the opponent with much better DC.
If I'd go Critical Strike I'd make a Scoundrel/Guardian character with a good stregth score.
As to the 4 armor from SL, I am playing against a seriously beefed up Malak in the end and my Scout/JC had serious problems against the two terrentateks and I assume that this new Malak will hit more often than previously.
As to DW, you are forgetting I won't have any good strength score so the 1.5 multiplier on a saberstaff is practially wasted.
I am also a person who tends to prefers defence over offence.
As to the Scout having more feats than the Scoundrel, that is true and a good strength of the class, but especially with the Start Up Mod you can just reach 3 in Duelig, Flurry and Implants. Anything else is luxury imho albeit I admit useful of corse.
With a good Dex Score Light Armor in Taris is just as good as medium armor.
Critical Strike is indeed not a good feat because the JC offers enough way to stun the opponent with much better DC.
If I'd go Critical Strike I'd make a Scoundrel/Guardian character with a good stregth score.
You're welcome.
Well, if you use mods, then I can't offer any input, as we're discussing from two different premises.
I do think that your stat array isn't that good, though. I'd rather put at least a 12 in CON, taking those points from either CHA or STR, or lower both and have a 14 CON. I also found that over the entire game, STR builds far outstrip DEX builds in overall power. (Which, given you've already started, means little by now.)
Well, if you use mods, then I can't offer any input, as we're discussing from two different premises.
I do think that your stat array isn't that good, though. I'd rather put at least a 12 in CON, taking those points from either CHA or STR, or lower both and have a 14 CON. I also found that over the entire game, STR builds far outstrip DEX builds in overall power. (Which, given you've already started, means little by now.)
Figured I might as well hi-jack this thread since it has relevant content.
I'm interested in playing a dark side character, scoundrel/consular, although I've read most of what was discussed, GawainBS was very insightful and helped a lot with my previous play through, what would you suggest scout/consular or scoundrel. What level player/jedi, stats ectra. I had 10, 14, 12, 14, 14, 14 I believe. Probably my fault and I didn't extrapolate enough info above.
I'm interested in playing a dark side character, scoundrel/consular, although I've read most of what was discussed, GawainBS was very insightful and helped a lot with my previous play through, what would you suggest scout/consular or scoundrel. What level player/jedi, stats ectra. I had 10, 14, 12, 14, 14, 14 I believe. Probably my fault and I didn't extrapolate enough info above.
Well I go for 14 intelligence when I want to RP Revans intelligence.
Otherwise you can easily drop intelligence to 10 or 8 and pump up Wisdom or charisma to get more out of your force powers or get up Con or Dex for more staying power.
To get the most out of the build you might consider strength too. albeit the bonus seems relatively low you must not forget that it adds to each attack so with each Flurry you get +8 damage overall and that's just with a base of 14. Add in an Implant for 15 and Master Valor -> 20 Strength -> +5 damage per attack -> +20 extra damage per attack.
I started with 10/14/10/14/14/15 and will end up with base stats of 10/14/1/14/16/18 which I think describes most accurately Revans abilites.
After the Doomgiver I tend to give him around +2 on any 2 Stat because I think remembering all the knowledge an abilities he had should give him something plus he has by far the worst stats of all available Jedis.
I give him an extra at least advanced or master level in any dark side power. Usually Storm think it's most fitting but Choke or Death Field just as good depending on circumstances.
Sometimes I give him the bonu ability scores right at the start. I think it's a bit silly that one of the most powerful Jedis and Sith of his lie time has the crapiest stats in game just doesn't reflect him porperly.
And no it doesn't change much for gameplay, he is weak and vulnerable at start and totally overpowered at the end.
I personally know how I want to build him albeit it requires the start up mod so I can chose my feats freely at start not counting the special rogue feats which are fixed ofc.
I think that's pretty fine because imho it sucks that every characer starts about the same.
Such a mod adds variety to the game.
Giving up on light armor and blaster feats means a tougher start for me albeit at level 2 light armor is about the only useful feat there or Toughness. Either way works.
All that remains for me is to decide wether I go for 7/13 or 6/14.
One gives extra powers and force points while the other gives an extra 1-6 damage for SA translating into up to 14 damage per Flurry on avarage.
Otherwise you can easily drop intelligence to 10 or 8 and pump up Wisdom or charisma to get more out of your force powers or get up Con or Dex for more staying power.
To get the most out of the build you might consider strength too. albeit the bonus seems relatively low you must not forget that it adds to each attack so with each Flurry you get +8 damage overall and that's just with a base of 14. Add in an Implant for 15 and Master Valor -> 20 Strength -> +5 damage per attack -> +20 extra damage per attack.
I started with 10/14/10/14/14/15 and will end up with base stats of 10/14/1/14/16/18 which I think describes most accurately Revans abilites.
After the Doomgiver I tend to give him around +2 on any 2 Stat because I think remembering all the knowledge an abilities he had should give him something plus he has by far the worst stats of all available Jedis.
I give him an extra at least advanced or master level in any dark side power. Usually Storm think it's most fitting but Choke or Death Field just as good depending on circumstances.
Sometimes I give him the bonu ability scores right at the start. I think it's a bit silly that one of the most powerful Jedis and Sith of his lie time has the crapiest stats in game just doesn't reflect him porperly.
And no it doesn't change much for gameplay, he is weak and vulnerable at start and totally overpowered at the end.
I personally know how I want to build him albeit it requires the start up mod so I can chose my feats freely at start not counting the special rogue feats which are fixed ofc.
I think that's pretty fine because imho it sucks that every characer starts about the same.
Such a mod adds variety to the game.
Giving up on light armor and blaster feats means a tougher start for me albeit at level 2 light armor is about the only useful feat there or Toughness. Either way works.
All that remains for me is to decide wether I go for 7/13 or 6/14.
One gives extra powers and force points while the other gives an extra 1-6 damage for SA translating into up to 14 damage per Flurry on avarage.
Why is sneak attack situational? Most enemies can be stunned and as a JC your stun attacks are very likely to go through. While the enemy is stunned ALL attacks profit from the SA.
My lowly 6/4 Scoundrel/JC dishes out up to around 35 damage per hit if the enemy is stunned and even if the enemy is not stunned how hard is it to move behind an enemy? Not at all if you got a tanky character with you. Just needs a little more micro but that's childsplay in this game.
That's without buffs, any Lightsaber crystals or any boni from gear and he can get up to four attacks with Speed and Flurry and he is a fricking JC not a Guardian.
After just a bit of gameplay on my Scoundrel/JC compared with my old Scout4/16 JC I do believe that a Scoundrel/JC is superior to any Scout/JC build.
The damage output is just that much better and especially a light side JC who role plays without dark side powers lack seriously in the damage department so the extra damage with SA is very appreciated.
AB stays about the same and with +4 extra AC many enemies will have a really hard time to hit you.
The little boni on saves can be easily compensated with Conditioning, gear and/or attribute scores and the JC asaves are good overall anyway.
Uncanny Dodge is just not noticable while the +4 extra AC is very much so.
The 2 free levels of implants are good I admit that though but you can get at least level 2 implant on a JC. You can easily forfeit 1 level of Dueling or 1 level of Flurry to get Combat Implant 3.
If you play with the Start Up mod which lets you chose all but class specific feats at start getting level 3 implants with Flurry 3 and Dueling 3 is no problem and you still have 1 feat for either Lightsaber Specialization, Toughness or any other feat you deem useful.
Maxing Repair is no problem even if you start as Scoundrel because you have Repair as class skill for your JC and JC get a decent amount of skill points.
I was able to max Persuasion, Awareness and Repair at level 10 on Dantoine already.
Edit:
And I can advice people to focus on Flurry for Mission. With Dueling for AB and def and Flurry for the extra attack and up to 10-60 extra damage per hit with Flurry that make 20-120 extra damage, 70 bonus damage on avarage, striking from behind, from stealth or on a stunned target. That far outweighs a meaningless crit even if you fully upgrade a good melee weapon for her. If you prefer blasters go with Rapid Fire instead of improving on Sniper. Remembr that Sneak attacks with ranged weapons only work if you are 10 meters away maximum.
Critical Strike is good only for the stun but that doesn't improve with levels and her Strength isn't very good to get the stun to work. No wonder people think she sucks when they do not outfit her properly.
If you aren't above using KSE you could switch Dueling to dual wield and with Flurry she'd get up to 30-180 extra damage with Flurry and SA.
Big Problem with that is that her strength isn't quite so good to utilize dual wield properly and as Scoundrel her BA is quite low. If you want to do that make sure you got some stun power at your disposal.
Just tested Mission as level 10 Scoundrel with DW and a double vibro blade got +5/+3 AB. That's really low even for a Scoundrel. Imho DW on Mission is not a good idea unless you like to gamble a lot.
My lowly 6/4 Scoundrel/JC dishes out up to around 35 damage per hit if the enemy is stunned and even if the enemy is not stunned how hard is it to move behind an enemy? Not at all if you got a tanky character with you. Just needs a little more micro but that's childsplay in this game.
That's without buffs, any Lightsaber crystals or any boni from gear and he can get up to four attacks with Speed and Flurry and he is a fricking JC not a Guardian.
After just a bit of gameplay on my Scoundrel/JC compared with my old Scout4/16 JC I do believe that a Scoundrel/JC is superior to any Scout/JC build.
The damage output is just that much better and especially a light side JC who role plays without dark side powers lack seriously in the damage department so the extra damage with SA is very appreciated.
AB stays about the same and with +4 extra AC many enemies will have a really hard time to hit you.
The little boni on saves can be easily compensated with Conditioning, gear and/or attribute scores and the JC asaves are good overall anyway.
Uncanny Dodge is just not noticable while the +4 extra AC is very much so.
The 2 free levels of implants are good I admit that though but you can get at least level 2 implant on a JC. You can easily forfeit 1 level of Dueling or 1 level of Flurry to get Combat Implant 3.
If you play with the Start Up mod which lets you chose all but class specific feats at start getting level 3 implants with Flurry 3 and Dueling 3 is no problem and you still have 1 feat for either Lightsaber Specialization, Toughness or any other feat you deem useful.
Maxing Repair is no problem even if you start as Scoundrel because you have Repair as class skill for your JC and JC get a decent amount of skill points.
I was able to max Persuasion, Awareness and Repair at level 10 on Dantoine already.
Edit:
And I can advice people to focus on Flurry for Mission. With Dueling for AB and def and Flurry for the extra attack and up to 10-60 extra damage per hit with Flurry that make 20-120 extra damage, 70 bonus damage on avarage, striking from behind, from stealth or on a stunned target. That far outweighs a meaningless crit even if you fully upgrade a good melee weapon for her. If you prefer blasters go with Rapid Fire instead of improving on Sniper. Remembr that Sneak attacks with ranged weapons only work if you are 10 meters away maximum.
Critical Strike is good only for the stun but that doesn't improve with levels and her Strength isn't very good to get the stun to work. No wonder people think she sucks when they do not outfit her properly.
If you aren't above using KSE you could switch Dueling to dual wield and with Flurry she'd get up to 30-180 extra damage with Flurry and SA.
Big Problem with that is that her strength isn't quite so good to utilize dual wield properly and as Scoundrel her BA is quite low. If you want to do that make sure you got some stun power at your disposal.
Just tested Mission as level 10 Scoundrel with DW and a double vibro blade got +5/+3 AB. That's really low even for a Scoundrel. Imho DW on Mission is not a good idea unless you like to gamble a lot.
It's situational and resource intensive because it requires you to
a) spend a round applying the stun, which isn't garantueed to work
b) The stun doesn't last particularly long
c) given that you have to spend some of those rounds buffing yourself
An extra lvl of Jedi allows for more FP, and an extra Force Power, which can be a damaging Dark Side one. This would even allow you to play off of your high CHA.
As for the roleplay argument: there's plenty of fluff about Light siders using Dark Side powers, without falling. Entire Jedi traditions are built around that. (Check out the Star Wars SAGA RPG: Jedi Training Manual for this.)
And if you're going for sneak attacks, just dual wield. It allows more Sneak Attack dice to be brought to bear.
But it seemed your intention was rather to have confirmed that Scoundrel 7 / JC 13 was the better option, not to ask wether Sc 6 or Sc 7 was the better option in other's opinion. If you want extra Sneak Attack, why care what others say about it? Just go for Scoundrel 7 then.
BTW, unless you're using a mod (which you are), the Scoundrel lacks the feats to invest in Conditioning.
a) spend a round applying the stun, which isn't garantueed to work
b) The stun doesn't last particularly long
c) given that you have to spend some of those rounds buffing yourself
An extra lvl of Jedi allows for more FP, and an extra Force Power, which can be a damaging Dark Side one. This would even allow you to play off of your high CHA.
As for the roleplay argument: there's plenty of fluff about Light siders using Dark Side powers, without falling. Entire Jedi traditions are built around that. (Check out the Star Wars SAGA RPG: Jedi Training Manual for this.)
And if you're going for sneak attacks, just dual wield. It allows more Sneak Attack dice to be brought to bear.
But it seemed your intention was rather to have confirmed that Scoundrel 7 / JC 13 was the better option, not to ask wether Sc 6 or Sc 7 was the better option in other's opinion. If you want extra Sneak Attack, why care what others say about it? Just go for Scoundrel 7 then.
BTW, unless you're using a mod (which you are), the Scoundrel lacks the feats to invest in Conditioning.
1.) Stuns mean lower AC which in returns nets you more hits. Even with Dueling your AB won't be as good as a Guardians and high AC characters are sometimes hard to hit so every little less AC is welcome.GawainBS wrote:It's situational and resource intensive because it requires you to
a) spend a round applying the stun, which isn't garantueed to work
b) The stun doesn't last particularly long
c) given that you have to spend some of those rounds buffing yourself
An extra lvl of Jedi allows for more FP, and an extra Force Power, which can be a damaging Dark Side one. This would even allow you to play off of your high CHA.
As for the roleplay argument: there's plenty of fluff about Light siders using Dark Side powers, without falling. Entire Jedi traditions are built around that. (Check out the Star Wars SAGA RPG: Jedi Training Manual for this.)
And if you're going for sneak attacks, just dual wield. It allows more Sneak Attack dice to be brought to bear.
But it seemed your intention was rather to have confirmed that Scoundrel 7 / JC 13 was the better option, not to ask wether Sc 6 or Sc 7 was the better option in other's opinion. If you want extra Sneak Attack, why care what others say about it? Just go for Scoundrel 7 then.
BTW, unless you're using a mod (which you are), the Scoundrel lacks the feats to invest in Conditioning.
Furthermore all stuns but stasis deal some damage. Stuns also mean you receive less damage which in turn means less need for healing which means you can use more attacks. It's not all as easy as saying "I waste a turn stunning so I deal less damage therefore stuns suck"
Furthermore I already said it's not hard to micro a bit and make sure your character attacks from behind.
Furthermore since you start at range and cannot attack anyway using a stun and then run up the opponent you sill got enough time to get a full attack round in at least.
2.) All powers dealing serious damage are dark sided period. If you want to play pure LS then the only option to deal good damage is melee.
Yes I know there were other characters like Katarn who utilized dark side powers as Jedi but that is beside the point.
3.) I still do not see the big advantage of the Scout for anything else than getting 2 levels of Implant. His class specific feat is pretty useless compared to the SA nd Scoundrels Luck which are pretty good.
By the way my first playtrough was as Scout 4/ JC 16 so I do think I know what I am talking about.
4.) I went into great detail explaining that even without the start up mod getting Imlant 3, Deling 3 and Flurry 2 is more than good enough for melee prowess. Any extra feat is pure luxury.
I also mentioned you can drop a level of Dueling but I prefer to have maximized AC and AB over a slightly less penalizing Flurry but it evens out anyway.
Since most Scoundrels get good dex and good wis score if they go JC your relex and will saves are good anyway. The little differences between 4 Scout + 2 JC levels and 6 levels of Scoundrel isn't really that noticable.
5.) I went with Scoundrel 6 / JC 14 build so no I do not think it's better or even worse than the 7/13 variant. I think the difference is so small no one notices it if no one mentions it.
6.) It gets even better with the K1 Force Pack mod which gives you Force Pull so you have the enemy right in front of you stunned.
7.) Most enemies won't be able to resist the stun. It's mainly the tougher bosses who do like Calo Nord but what benefits does the Scout have over the Scoundrel here? 8 more VP? Sorry changes nothing. Implants? Depends on what you got available. I had only the very basic Implants available on Kashyyk so they were nearly a non factor.
Better saves? Reflex is just as good and I explained why Will and Con saves aren't as important.
First point is totally irrelevant to what I said. Stuns aren't garantueed to work, and even if they do, it still is a round more. I don't say they suck, but I'd rather have them as back up, instead of main tactic. The big problem is that when they don't work, your entire tactic fails, since Sneak Attack isn't applicable.
Flurry 3 as a feat helps, and for a build with a poor 10 in CON, the Toughness feats are more than a luxury, they're bare necessity. Scout 4 could (and should) have the Toughness line, which translates into 40 extra HP, which matter, especially with the Damage Reduction.
As pointed out, Light Side has access to Dark powers, so it's a valid tactic. You're working with selfimposed penalties.
I found the better Fort & Will save quite useful, especially when facing Dark Jedi. You could rely only Force protection-something and Force Shield, but those are yet two extra powers to cast.
Micromanaging is an option, but without a reliable aggro-mechanic, attacking enemies from behind remains a gamble at best.
Personally, I'd play this kind of character in KotORII. There is has all the advantages your build has, without drawbacks.
So, for future readers of this threat: Is Scout better? It is more reliable. Scoundrel has the * potential * to deal far better melee damage, but it's more of a gamble.
Flurry 3 as a feat helps, and for a build with a poor 10 in CON, the Toughness feats are more than a luxury, they're bare necessity. Scout 4 could (and should) have the Toughness line, which translates into 40 extra HP, which matter, especially with the Damage Reduction.
As pointed out, Light Side has access to Dark powers, so it's a valid tactic. You're working with selfimposed penalties.
I found the better Fort & Will save quite useful, especially when facing Dark Jedi. You could rely only Force protection-something and Force Shield, but those are yet two extra powers to cast.
Micromanaging is an option, but without a reliable aggro-mechanic, attacking enemies from behind remains a gamble at best.
Personally, I'd play this kind of character in KotORII. There is has all the advantages your build has, without drawbacks.
So, for future readers of this threat: Is Scout better? It is more reliable. Scoundrel has the * potential * to deal far better melee damage, but it's more of a gamble.
The Scoundrel deals the same damage as the Scout with the same attribute collection. He has the potential to deal about double as much damage as the Scout and can get the damage in quite often so it's hardly any sort of gamble.
The Scoundrel is also less of a gamble in a lot of areas like being hit for example simply due to the noticably higher AC. AC more than 30 is easily reachable without top gear.
I really do not see where the Scout is more reliable outside of saves and even here reflex is the same and the others come up close enough thanks to the JCs good save progression.
Why do you keep pointing out dark side powers when I am talking about RP choice of not using dark side powers? This has nothing to do with self restricting but with RP. You do realize KotoR is supposed to be a RPG, right?
By the way, no force power can dish out as much damage to a single target than a full flurry with all attacks being buffed up with SA not even force storm. Force Storm is superior against multiple enemies though.
This isn't only about the very best character build by the way otherwise I'd not opt for 14 intelligence stat because it's rather worthless.
Outside of repair and persuade you need nothing and even repair is needed only to get HK-47 up.
I already explained that the saves aren't really far off and on top of that you can easily overcome enemy Force Powers with Force Resistence or Force Immunity so enemy force sensetives aren't that much of a threat. Their attacks hurt much more and the +4 AC helps here more than any +2 or +3 save advantage.
Why is Toughness a necessity? You end up with 120 VP without and 140 with it. That's hardly a drastic difference. I found about 120 VP to be fine actually did not have it on my Scout/JC either and was able to finish the game.
The Scoundrel is also less of a gamble in a lot of areas like being hit for example simply due to the noticably higher AC. AC more than 30 is easily reachable without top gear.
I really do not see where the Scout is more reliable outside of saves and even here reflex is the same and the others come up close enough thanks to the JCs good save progression.
Why do you keep pointing out dark side powers when I am talking about RP choice of not using dark side powers? This has nothing to do with self restricting but with RP. You do realize KotoR is supposed to be a RPG, right?
By the way, no force power can dish out as much damage to a single target than a full flurry with all attacks being buffed up with SA not even force storm. Force Storm is superior against multiple enemies though.
This isn't only about the very best character build by the way otherwise I'd not opt for 14 intelligence stat because it's rather worthless.
Outside of repair and persuade you need nothing and even repair is needed only to get HK-47 up.
I already explained that the saves aren't really far off and on top of that you can easily overcome enemy Force Powers with Force Resistence or Force Immunity so enemy force sensetives aren't that much of a threat. Their attacks hurt much more and the +4 AC helps here more than any +2 or +3 save advantage.
Why is Toughness a necessity? You end up with 120 VP without and 140 with it. That's hardly a drastic difference. I found about 120 VP to be fine actually did not have it on my Scout/JC either and was able to finish the game.
I'm talking about the Toughness line, which grants 40 VP & 2 DR. VERY, very useful. The Scout can afford this, the Scoundrel not, hence part of the Scout's better survivability.
Unreliability of Stun is an issue with Scoundrel.
You don't want to use Dark Powers, fine. But using them doesn't make you any less of a Light Side Jedi in the Star Wars fluff. That's what I'm pointing out. Leave the snide comments aside.
Unreliability of Stun is an issue with Scoundrel.
You don't want to use Dark Powers, fine. But using them doesn't make you any less of a Light Side Jedi in the Star Wars fluff. That's what I'm pointing out. Leave the snide comments aside.
In case of an optimized build with Con 14 or even 15 with 8 intelligence and access to implant 3 and max Force Valor you can easily get 22 or 24 Constitution if HP is really an issue.
That'd net up to 140 extra vitality or all in all 240 to 260 VP at level 20.
The -2 damage reduction is rarely noticable if at all and the 40 VP while noticabe are hardly a big deal if you do not have them.
Even with my build getting 18 Constitution is easy which puts me to he 200 VP limit. Count in battle stimulants, shields, heals and the likes and you are really tough enough for any encounter. Not sure about the improved Malak from the mod but we will see about that. If it's not I seriously doubt the 40 VP will make a big difference.
Furthermore it's partly compensated by the additinal 4 AC which helps avoiding a lot of damage the scout has to suffer anyway. I bet I can get through couple of encounters barely taking damage while the Scout has to use couple of heals to keep himself up.
My Scout/JC didn't have Toughness even and managed to get through just fine through the game. His damage was atrocious though.
By the way, I will refrain from using snide remarks when you stop bringing up dark side powers when I never exlcuded them out for everyone, just for people who'd like a pure LS build.
Basically your comments about dark side powers for LS builds were completely uneccessary and you bringing them up and teling me I place uneccessary limits to myself was actually just as snide of a remark when in fact I already told in this thread earlier that I am going to get Choke/Kill and Storm after the Leviathan.
All in all, the Scout/JC is a little tougher if you go with the Toughness line and has a little better fort and will saves and gets the level 12 Jedi class feats a little earlier at level 16 instead of 18 (Master Focus and +2 Def).
The Scoundrel/JC deals tons of more damage to a single target and is more difficult to hit by opponents. In both cases I go by an optimized build not my RP build. Both can get to the game just fine.
Happy now?
That'd net up to 140 extra vitality or all in all 240 to 260 VP at level 20.
The -2 damage reduction is rarely noticable if at all and the 40 VP while noticabe are hardly a big deal if you do not have them.
Even with my build getting 18 Constitution is easy which puts me to he 200 VP limit. Count in battle stimulants, shields, heals and the likes and you are really tough enough for any encounter. Not sure about the improved Malak from the mod but we will see about that. If it's not I seriously doubt the 40 VP will make a big difference.
Furthermore it's partly compensated by the additinal 4 AC which helps avoiding a lot of damage the scout has to suffer anyway. I bet I can get through couple of encounters barely taking damage while the Scout has to use couple of heals to keep himself up.
My Scout/JC didn't have Toughness even and managed to get through just fine through the game. His damage was atrocious though.
By the way, I will refrain from using snide remarks when you stop bringing up dark side powers when I never exlcuded them out for everyone, just for people who'd like a pure LS build.
Basically your comments about dark side powers for LS builds were completely uneccessary and you bringing them up and teling me I place uneccessary limits to myself was actually just as snide of a remark when in fact I already told in this thread earlier that I am going to get Choke/Kill and Storm after the Leviathan.
All in all, the Scout/JC is a little tougher if you go with the Toughness line and has a little better fort and will saves and gets the level 12 Jedi class feats a little earlier at level 16 instead of 18 (Master Focus and +2 Def).
The Scoundrel/JC deals tons of more damage to a single target and is more difficult to hit by opponents. In both cases I go by an optimized build not my RP build. Both can get to the game just fine.
Happy now?