Time for another play-through

[LastDanceSaloon]

My God, this game works perfectly on Windows 7! Tell all your friends, this is awesome beyond awesome!

It's deep mid-winter again, must be time to fire up my third or fourth run through of Icewind Dale

You'd think I'd be perfect at it by now wouldn't you. But that's part of the fun, I still have the same problems at the same places but I just know where I'm going and how to get the most out of quest features.

For example, in Easthaven I always seem to die and reload once on the lame wolf. No idea why. I always die and reload the small pack of Goblins on the seashore at least three times before I remember how to cope with their awkward archers. I can never remember if I'm supposed to kill Pomab or not or how I get to that position without just a relatively pointless manual attack. I always try a few pickpockets then decide I can't be bothered with all the reloading after the first guy to catch me sends the whole room red. I always choose the wrong proficiency 10 minutes before I find a Magical Weapon that I'm not proficient in. I have one character who is at -1 Armour Class who just does all the killing himself (shadowed by a bowman thief), occasionally backtracking to the group if swarmed or met by a Boss or two. I always get the order of the group wrong so I have a weak party member on my front-line and then can't be bothered to import and export until it gets ridiculous.

But anyway, here's my posse, I'm going for all the characters I have zero/teeny tiny experience with in order to help liven up this latest playthrough:

Human Paladin - Strong, Charismatic and Hardy, but a bit thick and about as quick footed as an umbrella stand, Two-Handed Weapons.

Half-Elf Druid - Strong, Charismatic and Hardy, but not a lot else. Staffs and Missile Weapons.

Elven Ranger - Strong, Agile, Hardy and Wise but dumb as rocks. Swordsman, hopefully dual wield at some point but maybe this wont happen in Icewind Dale 1?

Gnome Illusionist - Charismatic and Intelligent but otherwise a bit of a burden when surrounded. Staffs and Missile Weapons.

Dwarven Thief (yeah, I know, LOL) - Very hardy and quite light footed, for a dwarf. Daggers and Bows, hopefully dual wield at some point but maybe this wont happen in Icewind Dale 1?

Human Bard (wouldn't let me have a Halfling Bard) - Charismatic and Intelligent with a hint of Agility, wouldn't ask him to open a jar of pickles though, might break his wrist. Bows and Crossbows until I can figure out what the harp button does or afford to buy him one in the first place.


I think the only character I dumped Wisdom into with any ferocity was the Ranger, can you confirm this was the correct course of action as the party does seem a bit Wisdom-light?

Can you remember if Dual Wielding happens in Icewind Dale 1 and if so, what are the criteria?

Any chance someone can give me a brief how-to on harps?

ta in advance!

[Crenshinibon]

Bards are my absolute favorite characters in all of the D&D games, so a hurrah for you in having one.

The Harp button triggers the Bard Song, which in the core Icewind Dale (and Baldur's Gate) gives +1 to THAC0, damage and luck (armor too if I remember correctly). In order to use it, you just click on the button and your bard sings the song. Think of it as a channeling ability, where he can't really perform other actions while singing. You can however manage it, since after you stop singing, the song's effect lasts for a round or two. If you have the Heart of Winter expansion, it does all of the following (you can choose):

The Ballad of Three Heroes. Bards start the game with the ability to
play this ballad. When the Ballad of Three Heroes is played, all the bard’s
allies gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and +1 saving throws.

The Tale of Curran Strongheart. Bards gain this song at 3rd level.
When the Tale of Curran Strongheart is being played, any fear effect on
the bard’s allies are removed, and they gain an immunity to fear effects for
as long as the song lasts.

Tymora’s Melody. Bards gain this song at 5th level. When played,
Tymora’s Melody gives the bard’s allies +1 luck, +3 saving throws, and
+10% to their lore skill and thief skills.

The Song of Kaudies. Bards gain this song at 7th level. When the Song
of Kaudies is played, the bard’s allies have a 50% chance to shrug off the
effects of spells such as Silence, Shout, Great Shout, Command, or any
other sound-based attack.

The Siren’s Yearning. Bards gain the Siren’s Yearning at 9th level.
When played, the bard’s enemies must save vs. spell or be enthralled,
unable to take action until 1 turn passes or they take damage.
War Chant of Sith. The War Chant of Sith becomes available to bards
when they reach 11th level. When played, the bard’s allies gain -2 bonus
to AC, +10% Resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile
attacks, and the ability to regenerate 2 hit points every round.

There is no dual-wielding in Icewind Dale. The closest you can have to that is a ranger, since when they wield a one-handed weapon in their main hand, with nothing in their off-hand, they receive an additional attack per round.

As far as I know, Wisdom doesn't really carry any weight for a character aside from providing bonus spell slots.

[LastDanceSaloon]

Thanks for the quick reply Crenshinibon.

I knew there was a reason I should be doing something special with my Ranger, at the moment he has a longsword and a shield whereas I shouldn't be waiting for dual-wield but instead just dropping the shield, thanks for that!

The Ranger is quickly becoming my favourite character in this posse, at the early easy stages at least anyway. He can Stealth all the enemies, take on any loose ones by himself and maintain zero Armour Class. Adding the extra attack is going to be awesome!

Yes, Wisdom is all about spell slots and when I play Clerics (my favourite characters for the Icewind Dale series) I always have Wisdom on 18 and it makes for a huge difference so it seems odd to me to have so few people interested in the stat. I'm mainly concerned that my Paladin and Ranger are both Level 4 now (or was it 3, well, they've just had their first extra weapon point) and neither can cast any spells yet so maybe I have failed at a stat point somewhere?

That's some excellent information about the Bard Song, I shall have to experiment with it profusely.

Just some extra questions/points about the Bard though while you're here:

I don't have HoW installed. I have the disc but prefer to play without it, I personally find that expansion tedious regardless of the extra benefits to characters, I just don't like the over-long walkways with ever-repeating monsters, so much so that I'd rather just not go there, lol. So does that change the Harp Progression?

Also, what happens when one actually buys a Harp or finds one, is it used in a weapon slot or is it a magic slot, what's the mechanics of using a Harp item as oppose to the General Harp Button?

And is it worth forking out for every Harp I find (they seem to be 10k apiece :speech: ) or is it better to just buy/find one good one and stick to it as one would a nice Sword or Bow?

[Crenshinibon]

Don't worry, Paladins and Rangers gain the ability to cast spells at later levels. HoW makes them able to cast spells sooner though (level six).

Without HoW, the bard song you get is the equivalent of the very first one described.

By installing the expansion, you are in no way obligated to complete it. You can still gain the bonuses of it (better bard songs, new arcane and divine spells, new abilities for rangers, paladins and druids and of course a level cap of 30).

Unfortunately, using any instrument does not have any effect on the bard song, however, these instruments are still worth using (as Quick Slot items) because they provide powerful enchantments (from summoning several berzerkers or shades to fight for you to confusing your enemies or even strengthening your party). There is one instrument however that is used under the shield slot.

In my opinnion, the best instruments are the ones bought, however, you can buy them later, or as you see fit, after all, most of their effects can be reproduced by spells.

Maybe I am incorrect in remembering this, but I don't recall buying anything except certain potions and magic scrolls (and of course these special trinkets) from the stores. I however, like to play with a much smaller party, so I tend to have more gold to spare.

[kmonster]

You don't have to equip any instrument in order to play bard songs, the harp is standard equipment and therefore not even shown in the inventory.
Just select the song and your bard will sing it (without HoW you'll only have the level 1 song), it's not worth buying any instruments (except once per day items), they don't affect your songs, they're just items you can use like wands or scrolls (read the descriptions).

Without expansion paladin and ranger get their first spell at level 9 and 8, they'll never get many spells and wisdom is unimportant for them.

[LastDanceSaloon]

Crenshinibon - Yes, I've seen the one which one 'holds under the arm' to add additional spells, it was this one which threw me the most and confused my idea of what Harps were supposed to do and how one would use them. I see now how that one is different and thanks for forewarning me of it's purpose.

As far as buying stuff, my golden rule in RPGs is to never buy anything unless I really have to or the item for sale out-provides anything the game is providing in a timely fashion.

Oddly, I'll forego the spells and potions more often than not and just use what comes freely, only popping back to the dealer for topping up what the game hasn't provided but looks like a useful spell, I wont just buy them because they are there. I think the only potions I buy in Icewind Dale are Potions of Speed and maybe Flasks of Fire to dispatch Trolls if I have no other means of Acid or Fire attack.

I do like buying armour and clothing as soon as possible however and normally prioritise my first big spend on maxing my armour class in order to prioritise memorising spells with more immediate clout and reduce my reliance on Healing Potions.

Of all the equipment available in Kuldahar, and there is plenty to keep the appetite wetted from all the sellers, I'm forever disappointed that the game is so bereft of the pleasures of a nice, simple flaming sword +1

kmonster - Thanks for that, that's excellent information and precisely helpful as always

[Crenshinibon]

For me, the only potions I buy in IWD as well as the BG series are the ones that provide protection (immunity) to magic. As for spells, I'll just buy the ones I need, unless they are ridiculously expensive. Some of them are a must for me, like Tenser's Transformation.

I usually equip my party before leaving Easthaven, and then just live off the land, except if in rare cases when I'm forced to buy some weapon.

[Endugu]

*double post*

[Endugu]

Just a note, since you mentioned in your opening post that you always have trouble with the lone Easthaven wolf and you have a ranger in your party...

*spoiler*

Spoiler

You can simply use your ranger's "charm animal" ability on the wolf to solve the quest without needing to fight it.

That's one of those things I like about Icewind Dale:
There always seems to be something new to discover, even if you have played through the game a few times already.


By the way, it's not supposed to work that way, but I'm pretty sure that rangers also receive their extra attack when using a twohanded weapon. Apparently it's the "no shield" part that makes the difference.

[LastDanceSaloon]

That's excellent information about the Ranger. I wish I had known it from the start, lol - I scheduled my Ranger for one-handed weapons and my Paladin for two-handed weapons with double skill points, when, according to that info, I should have done the reverse. Oh well, that shall be next time!

And yes, I have always had problems with the whole animal thing. I'm very familiar with Elven Rangers and play one every time, but I normally make him the Archer of the group to take advantage of all that Agility, they can be virtual machine guns on speed. And I have played a Druid before, but I always forget to charm the wolves, probably because they're so easy to kill. But I've never figured out how to make either of them ever talk to animals. Apparently you can chat with Oswald's Cows, but I've never managed to do it.

And you are right, there's tuns of little things which make each play-through different enough to make for pleasant new experiences. There are also chunks that one completely forgets about, like the Temple full of Talonites and Veerbergs. I always complete the Vale of Shadows and think, right, off to Dragon's Eye and am, every time, confounded that I'd forgotten about this little gem of a segway.

As usual, however, I am at a complete loss as to what to do with my Druid. Aside from healing party members a few measly Hit Points and flinging the odd missile he appears somewhat of a dead-end character once again. Again, I feel like I'm missing something important, but I'm just not. Probably the biggest irony of Icewind Dale is the fact that the Druids are the most useless character to play in a game where you spend the whole game helping out the Druids!

The guy is on level 8 and the only really offensive spell he has are a little lightning bolt. He has a couple of area effect spells, but they both endanger my team as well as the bad guys. Many of his spells only work outside, and there's really not a lot of outside in Icewind Dale, and there's barely any animals to charm. He currently has 3 level 3 spells to choose from, and absolutely none of them are any good. But I'm guessing they suddenly become awesome towards the end of the game.

Like-wise, I'm not really feeling the Bard yet. I'm on the third level of Dragon's eye and I have yet to stumble upon a single Harp and the only ones in town offer a boring couple of extra spells (at the cost of converting him from a bowman into a swordsman) or some summoned Berserkers. I can only guess that the Berserkers are well worth the 10k asking price! I wouldn't know, I haven't bought anything yet. And I can't get used to having him sing his song as I prefer him shooting arrows.

Still, all is going well and I should think that by the time I dispatch the last creature from Dragon's Eye the team will be a lot more rounded and levelled up enough to start taking full advantage of all the character differing traits

[Endugu]

That's excellent information about the Ranger. I wish I had known it from the start, lol - I scheduled my Ranger for one-handed weapons and my Paladin for two-handed weapons with double skill points, when, according to that info, I should have done the reverse. Oh well, that shall be next time!

Well, without spoilering you even more, I'll just note that there's a very good reason for specialising your paladin in one-handed weapons, later in the game.
But hey, one more reason for your next playthrough, right?

And yes, I have always had problems with the whole animal thing. I'm very familiar with Elven Rangers and play one every time, but I normally make him the Archer of the group to take advantage of all that Agility, they can be virtual machine guns on speed. And I have played a Druid before, but I always forget to charm the wolves, probably because they're so easy to kill. But I've never figured out how to make either of them ever talk to animals. Apparently you can chat with Oswald's Cows, but I've never managed to do it.

I once made a party consisting of four elven rangers plus a fighter/mage/thief
and was really suprised at the sheer firepower involved. Made for a very easy playthrough (well, until I got bored, anyway).
Btw, the lone wolf in the easthaven house is special in regards to beeing charmed by a ranger. Simply give it a try next time and you'll see.

As usual, however, I am at a complete loss as to what to do with my Druid. Aside from healing party members a few measly Hit Points and flinging the odd missile he appears somewhat of a dead-end character once again. Again, I feel like I'm missing something important, but I'm just not. Probably the biggest irony of Icewind Dale is the fact that the Druids are the most useless character to play in a game where you spend the whole game helping out the Druids!

I really like druids in IWD. In fact, what I also like about this game is that it makes some of the often weak or neglected classes, like druid, bard and paladin, shine.
Druids are a bit like bards in that they can do a bit of everything. They can heal, can summon creatures to aid you, buff your party via barkskin, kill trolls with sunscorch or burning blade and deal damage to enemies.
Speaking of which, I find their area-of-effect spells to be quite useful.
Scout the area ahead for enemies with your thief, lure them back to you and create a trap consisting of entangle, spike growth, spike stones, insect plague etc (and your mage/bard can help with grease, & web, too). Pluck of any surviving helpless enemies with ranged weapons. Easy as pie!

Like-wise, I'm not really feeling the Bard yet. I'm on the third level of Dragon's eye and I have yet to stumble upon a single Harp and the only ones in town offer a boring couple of extra spells (at the cost of converting him from a bowman into a swordsman) or some summoned Berserkers. I can only guess that the Berserkers are well worth the 10k asking price! I wouldn't know, I haven't bought anything yet. And I can't get used to having him sing his song as I prefer him shooting arrows.

Don't focus on those instruments too much. I don't think I've ever used them much, to be honest...
You should really try to get used having him singing once in a while, though.
What bards are good at is healing between fights (once they get their healing song at level 11), paralyzing enemies with The Siren's Yearning song (basically an unlimited hold person spell) and leveling way faster than any mage, i.e. casting more powerfull spells earlier.
I almost always include a bard in my party in place of a mage. While they can memorize way less spells than a mage, I find that this is more than offset by their songs, fast leveling, their ability to identify anything, free pickpocketing skill and beeing half-way decent in combat with any weapon.

Don't get too hung up on the bard or druid, tough. Different people like different classes and playstyles. Maybe the bard is just not you cup of tea. Play in the way that makes the game the most enjoyable to you!

[GawainBS]

If you want to swap your weapon proficiencies, there's always Dalekeeper.
Just curious: Was it an RP decision to give your Paladin, Bard and Druid low/average Dexterity and the Dwarf Thief with low/average Strength? Given the AD&D rules, that might be problematic: STR is the only thing used to determine to hit in melee, while high DEX always improves your AC, even in fullplate. The Druid & Bard, for example, would benefit from higher AC & ranged to hit. Also, a single-classed Thief is a bit of a waste, since once he's maxed out his thieving abilities (which doesn't take that long), he stops increasing in usefulness. A Fighter/Thief, for example, keeps getting better and better.

As I said, if these were deliberate choices, more fun to you. If they weren't, you might encounter some frustration.

The Bard will get better if you give him more Mage spells. As Cren pointed out, HoW is more or less a must to fully appreciate them, with the songs. Druids also get a lot more spells in HoW.
There's no downside from installing HoW, apart from the (more clumsy/ugly, IMO) BG2 sprites.

[LastDanceSaloon]

Thanks for that Endugu, but for the most part you'll have to re-write it as I'm not playing with the HoW expansion. I'm playing as the original game was intended to be played

And thanks also to Gawain, you make some excellent points. Yes, I'm rp'ing not maximising But don't worry, I'll manage, the battles are much easier without HoW installed, there's very little frustration involved

The Bard is good for spells. The Bard is good for everything really. A bit like the Druid. But they're not very good at specialising in the bardiness and druidiness elements.

The Paladin is good for doing all the talking and accessing extra conversation experience and price negotiations, the Ranger is good at stealthing his way behind enemy lines so he can chop up the mage before the droogs get in the way, the thief is good at finding traps and opening locks and stealthing as back up for the Ranger, and the Gnome Illusionist is good at spellcasting. But the Bard is just this guy and the Druid is basically no different to a Cleric so far, only with much less useful spells and an inability to wear decent armour.

No-one know anything about the Cows or the Beserkers?

[kmonster]

Your druid will become more powerful when he levels up. Static charge is a very powerful level 4 spell and there are also powerful spells at level 5-6.
Druids level faster than clerics. They reach level 11 and gain access to level 1-6 spells at 200,000 XP when clerics are still stuck at level 8 with level 1-4 spells.
At level 7 druids can shapeshift, polar bear form grants 3 attacks per round (6 hasted, scimitar proficiency and equipment bonuses (except the AC set by armor and attack properties of weapons) still apply).
Buying umber hulk plate and having a rhino beetle shield made and enchanted in chapter 6 will remove the armor disadvantage.


Bards are very good at singing. Don't forget this.
The facts that they can do quite some physical damage with a composite bow or other weapons, that they can pickpocket, that they are the best diplomats which get the most class specific options during the game, get the highest lore for identifying items, get higher arcane casting levels than mages because of the faster leveling (longest lasting haste, most damaging skull traps, ...), can use very powerful once per day instruments (you can buy a violin where you can get your rhino beetle shield enchanted) often let the players forget that they're by far the best at singing.

[LastDanceSaloon]

Yes indeed, kmonster, I must admit I had completely forgotten about the crucial work my Bard was doing in identifying magical items! I must apologise profusely to my Bard for this as this has indeed saved me an awful lot of money compared to when I play mageless, and an awful lot of time when I play with a mage. So, yes, my Bard is already being a useful unique.

Just waiting for the Druid now, and thanks for assuring me he does improve with age, this is very encouraging - can't wait to see a Polar Bear tear up a few Acolytes

[GawainBS]

The key to using Static Charge, IIRC, is to cast several in a screen clear of enemies, then move in on them: all the charges from the casted spells will trigger simultaniously.

[Endugu]

Ah, sorry, I missed the fact that you play without Heart Of Winter.
Without the expansion, the bard and druid might not be that impressive regarding their bardiness and druidiness, respectively - but as long as you are having fun, it should be fine.

[GawainBS]

About the regular Bard Song. I believe it is a Luck effect, which means that every dice roll counts as if having rolled one higher. The best effect is that all "19"rolls count as 20 - a crit!

[LastDanceSaloon]

I am interested in maximising however, and there are plenty of people who will read this thread who will be also, it might not be this run through but I will do a maximum carnage rp one year :mischief: so here are the vital statistics for the squad and it'd be great to point out which stats could have been placed better in preparation for that time.

I took the first random roll for each character and simply moved the points about. I'm quite happy to 'cheat' and reload if I fail to memorise a spell, but for the initial rolls I like to play strictly by the book for some reason, so for people of a similar mindset, how would you have best distributed the following numbers for the specific characters:

(Bare in mind I chose a Dwarf as the Thief for the LOLs, so no wasting post-space saying you don't use Dwarves for Thieves LOL)


HEATWAVE
Human, Lawful Good, Paladin
Str 18/89
Dex 10
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 18

FLASHWAVE
Elf, Neutral Good, Ranger
Str 18/27
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 8

BULLET
Dwarf, Neutral Good, Thief
Str 18
Dex 17 (max allowed for a Dwarf)
Con 19
Int 18
Wis 4
Cha 2

SHOCKWAVE
Half-Elf, True Neutral, Druid
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 4
Wis 14
Cha 18

SPELLBOUND
Gnome, Neutral Good, Illusionist
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 19
Wis 2
Cha 18

SINGSONG
Human, Neutral Good, Bard
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 3
Cha 18

I like to put 'spare' points towards raising stats which might give me extra spell/save protection even at the cost of some constitution, do any of the 'useless' stats for a character improve saves?

[GawainBS]

Thing to keep in mind is that in AD&D, a CON of 14 and lwoer doesn't do anything worthwhile.

Disclaimer: This might leave you with moron characters with 4 INT, but it's strictly for optimisation purposes.

I would have dumped the Paladin's INT, WIS & CHA as low as possible, to increase his CON to 18 and DEX as high as possible.

Ranger: One extra point into CON from INT and an extra point from DEX, for sneaking/missle weapon attacks.

Thief: An 18 WIS instead of INT (or reduce CON to 16, he's a non-warrior, so 16+ is wasted, barring a bonus to certain saves, which is Dwarf specific.) I think WIS also gives saves bonuses to certain categories. A toss-up, basicly.

Druid: Lowered the CHA to the min of 15, lowered his STR to 10, and raised the WIS to 18, and given him more DEX.

Illusionist: 16 CHA, 16 CON.

Bard: STR 10, CON 16.