(STR) Monk build

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:47 am

I'm thinking about playing a staff-wielding STR based Monk, and I was wondering if there's some way to add something "extra" to the build. I use Kaedrin's PrC pack.

Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance!

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:15 pm

GawainBS wrote: ..I was wondering if there's some way to add something "extra" to the build.

Yes, stick with unarmed attacks.

While flurry does transfer to staffs, it's at the same 1d6 that a Monk has up through level 4 (Monk).

By level 8 it's 1d10 for unarmed, and 2d6 at level 12 (..double that of a staff). That 2d6 is an average of +3 or basically a +6 in strength..

NWN2 builder website is being upgraded right now, so it's difficult to go though quick "what if" builds..

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:23 am

At high STR and with Power Attack, a staff gets (eventually) better returns on damage. (Granted, Power Attack lowers to hit.) Additionally, the + X enhancement of a staff gets added to damage too. It also "frees" the glove slot.
Apart from that, I really do not want to use unarmed attacks. I want a staff.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 am

GawainBS wrote:At high STR and with Power Attack, a staff gets (eventually) better returns on damage. (Granted, Power Attack lowers to hit.) Additionally, the + X enhancement of a staff gets added to damage too. It also "frees" the glove slot.
Apart from that, I really do not want to use unarmed attacks. I want a staff.

Then you want a different base-type class.

Power Attack (..or Improved Power Attack) can NOT be used with Flurry at the same time. And yes, as a two-handed weapon both are much better now that you have Kaedrin giving the proper damage for 2-handed weapons.

Basically a staff-wielding character is a reasonable role-playing character, but trying to fit the Monk class into it isn't a good idea (..despite traditional Oriental Monks) - for NWN 2 anyway.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:07 pm

True, I forgot PA and Flurry don't mesh in NWN2, but the 1.5x STR bonus & enhancement bonus to damage and extra free slot make the staff at least competitive with Unarmed Attacks: Staff: 1d6 (avg 3) + 5 (enhanc) + 9 (STR*1.5) = 17; vs Unarmed: 2d10 (avg 11) + 6 (same STR*1) = 17. Unless I'm missing an item/feat that makes Unarmed a lot better, I think that the staff is plenty viable for Monk in NWN2.

Now, back on topic: apart from splashing FTR 4 for Weapon Specialisation, I couldn't find any intresting/viable (prestige)class.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:52 pm

GawainBS wrote:True, I forgot PA and Flurry don't mesh in NWN2, but the 1.5x STR bonus & enhancement bonus to damage and extra free slot make the staff at least competitive with Unarmed Attacks: Staff: 1d6 (avg 3) + 5 (enhanc) + 9 (STR*1.5) = 17; vs Unarmed: 2d10 (avg 11) + 6 (same STR*1) = 17. Unless I'm missing an item/feat that makes Unarmed a lot better, I think that the staff is plenty viable for Monk in NWN2.

Now, back on topic: apart from splashing FTR 4 for Weapon Specialisation, I couldn't find any intresting/viable (prestige)class.

There is one other problem.. quarterstaff's can't bypass damage reduction.

Note with Kaedrin's a fighter has other damage enhancements and attack bonuses (..but it does require more levels). (..Greater, Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremecy, Epic.)

I think the best way to go about a build like this is ask what you are looking for in your build rather than any particular class. High damage? A particular type of damage? High damage per hit, or high damage per round? Single attack or multiple attacks? A particular type of AC bonus? Spell resistance? Mental resistance? etc..

Alternatively, what is it about the Monk class that you like?

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:41 pm

DR Might be an issue, but it never bothered me significantly in the OCs. I always had the same non-special material weapon.

I want a Monk because of the Flurry, decent class skills and unarmoured fighting. I also consider a Wizard/Swiftblade/EldritchKnight, but I don't want to buff everytime. My last character (Meleebard) had to do that, and it gets a bit old after a while. An other option is a Druid, but those need buffing too if they go melee, and combining Druid & Monk requires Lawful Neutral, an impossible alignment for me, plus there's the question how weapons/armour/wildshape/monk abilities interact.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:15 pm

GawainBS wrote:DR Might be an issue, but it never bothered me significantly in the OCs. I always had the same non-special material weapon.

I want a Monk because of the Flurry, decent class skills and unarmoured fighting. I also consider a Wizard/Swiftblade/EldritchKnight, but I don't want to buff everytime. My last character (Meleebard) had to do that, and it gets a bit old after a while. An other option is a Druid, but those need buffing too if they go melee, and combining Druid & Monk requires Lawful Neutral, an impossible alignment for me, plus there's the question how weapons/armour/wildshape/monk abilities interact.

For the OC damage resistance is mostly relegated to Undead - particularly vampires in the "castle".

Lets look at this from slightly different perspective:

You want:
Additional Attacks
Good AC
Good class skills ..though which?
Single buff or preferably no buffs

Hmm, damage isn't even on the list.

But I'll assume it is.

Did you know that a Barbarian now has a different type of rage called Whirlwind Rage, and that it provides bonuses to AC.. AND AN EXTRA ATTACK? Likewise, an FB's Fenzy has an extra attack as well, AND (more importantly) Supreme Cleave for the added attacks with groups. Still, either rage/frenzy is a buff - but only one.

Then there is the Swiftblade's haste augmentation, and haste of course provides an extra attack and all the other bonuses. Additionally it can be extended and the Swiftblade's ALSO adds to that duration (i.e. extended and perpetual additions) - all of which can make this act a LOT less like buff (..more like a perpetual buff).

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:27 pm

Here is a build with I just did, and not a Monk-based build:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?94465

In practice Supreme Cleave (in the OC) with a high damage build means more than normal additional attacks per round.

Frenzy however also provides an additional attack.

It has near mental immunity at level 12 (with some added will saves), it has near fortitude save immunity as well (with some added constitution bonus). Spell Resistance is finally provided by level 16 (instead of 13 for a pure Monk).

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:28 pm

Class skills: mainly Diplomacy. Does Barbarian's Rage/Whirling Frenzy stack with STR enhancing items? If it does, good. If it doesn't, pass.

Swiftblade means gish means buffing, so it's out. Even Extended, that means casting Haste almost before every meaningful fight. Makes it even less likely I'll choose it.

And yes, assume damage is on the list.

EDIT: Just missed your build. I don't see the benefit from Elemental Warrior. Too much limited-duration abilities, while reducing BAB. On the other hand, maybe a pure FTR focused Staffs would be the way to go. If I used Thug, I'd even get better class skills.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:44 pm

GawainBS wrote:Class skills: mainly Diplomacy. Does Barbarian's Rage/Whirling Frenzy stack with STR enhancing items? If it does, good. If it doesn't, pass.

Swiftblade means gish means buffing, so it's out. Even Extended, that means casting Haste almost before every meaningful fight. Makes it even less likely I'll choose it.

And yes, assume damage is on the list.

EDIT: Just missed your build. I don't see the benefit from Elemental Warrior. Too much limited-duration abilities, while reducing BAB. On the other hand, maybe a pure FTR focused Staffs would be the way to go. If I used Thug, I'd even get better class skills.

The FB-only build is better IMO. (..and removed the Elemental Warrior as a result.)

I don't think an FB's does, but I think a Barbarian's rage does stack. (..this is just the attribute alteration.)

I'd also tried-out a Monk1/Paladin6/Champion of the Silver Flame10.. very different build, and overall not as good as the FB build, but still good and interesting.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:58 pm

The real "killer" class in Kaedrins is Forest Master (w/FB)- but still a "buff" type character. (..nor a staff weapon build.)

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:30 pm

For the Frenzy-like effect? How does that interact with Flurry, BTW?

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:33 pm

GawainBS wrote:For the Frenzy-like effect? How does that interact with Flurry, BTW?

I'm assuming because it doesn't stack with haste that it does stack with Flurry (i.e. haste + Flurry is OK, so Frenzy + Flurry should be as well). There is the alignment problem however (..Monk Lawful, FB/Barbarian can't be lawful.)

Note that like haste the added attack of Whirlwind Frenzy or FB Frenzy doesn't show up on the character sheet.

Barbarian is basically a non-monk Monk. There really should be a Supreme Cleave prestige class for the Monk.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:27 pm

I've altered the Pole Fighter yet again:

Pole Fighter 3 « Build | NWN2DB

I like it better.

Slippery Mind is Indomitable Soul + I get Epic Resilience, all earlier than the other build received Indomitable Soul.

Frenzy while reduced in effect and number of uses, is provided earlier as well. Of course Enhanced Power Attack is also provided earlier.

Spell Resistance is delayed 4 levels, but still there for 20th level. Additionally with the save features of this build most spells and spell-like effects should fail against this build. (..especially with Deathless Frenzy.)

Then add-in an extra +2 to AC with Heavy Armor.

At epic levels damage reduction is 2 levels faster and the specializations + the added strength bonus is more additional damage than from Supreme Power Attack.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:47 am

Thanks, that looks pretty good. There's also Heavy Armour Specialisation, which grants DR 5/-, stacks with everything. Maybe that instead of Greater Hvy Armour Optimisation?
Still, if I'd do this build, I'd go for a non-Monk weapon, like Halberd or Spear. If I want Quarterstaff, it would still be Monk/Ftr/Annointed Knight or something. I underestimated Ann. Knight based on its dismall P&P performance.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:20 am

GawainBS wrote:Thanks, that looks pretty good. There's also Heavy Armour Specialisation, which grants DR 5/-, stacks with everything. Maybe that instead of Greater Hvy Armour Optimisation?
Still, if I'd do this build, I'd go for a non-Monk weapon, like Halberd or Spear. If I want Quarterstaff, it would still be Monk/Ftr/Annointed Knight or something. I underestimated Ann. Knight based on its dismall P&P performance.

That damage resistance doesn't stack with anything else.

Yes, another two-handed weapon would be superior - Falchion in particular. This is the way I'd do it:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?94559

Again, with Monk there is always the conflict of power attack vs. flurry - IF you don't care about power attack then you are "good to go" with a Monk-based build (..usually to 11th or 13th level). Note however that you also have problems with "juggling" attributes/races and XP penalties.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:55 am

You sure that doesn't stack? I got to choose it yesterday as I was leveling characters, and it said "stacks with everything else". I'm not using the latest version, though.

Does NWN feature as many crit-immune enemies as P&P does? I tend to shy away from crits because of that.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:14 pm

GawainBS wrote:You sure that doesn't stack? I got to choose it yesterday as I was leveling characters, and it said "stacks with everything else". I'm not using the latest version, though.

Does NWN feature as many crit-immune enemies as P&P does? I tend to shy away from crits because of that.

I'm only going by Kaedrin's description:

"This DR does not stack with any other source of DR."

If it does stack then it's awesome.

Surprisingly there are more critically immune in the OC than in MOTB - virtually all of whom are Undead. (..Telthor "spirits" aren't undead.) SOZ has very few critically immune except for random encounters with Elementals.

Given that most of the critically immune in the OC are undead.. it might be kind of interesting to do a Skullclan Hunter for it. I'll look through the PRC and the builder site to see if I can come up with something interesting.

EDIT: Nope, don't like the changes to multi-class NON-stacking of sneak attack damage.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Totally unrelated, but given that I'm the OP, I can deviate. ;-)
I never got around to really play the SoZ campaign. It wasn't captivating at all.