Demon Summoners and other inconsistences... (SPOILERS!)

[NocturneN]

Alright, so, lately I've come across a few opponents who summon demons against me, but these fights have been mighty strange indeed...I also wanted to ask some things about the Twisted Rune that maybe someone could shed some light on. Figured I'd combine these two topics as they're somewhat related:

Frustrated with how I never found out what exacly was going on with the Bridge District murders, I started going over what leads I had; eventually I found out about the "Twisted Rune House" in the Bridge District and how to enter it. So I entered. And here's were the strangeness begins...

In the fight against Shangalar the Lich and his lackeys the mage Layene starts summoning a Demon; a Pit Fiend. Okay fair enough, but what happens next is that she goes out of her way to try to KILL the Demon... :S Afaik, Layene herself was the only one in the group that was protected from evil, thus the demon happily strides ahead and begins tearing apart her allies...then SHE kills it. So... eh... what?! Same thing with the Lich in the nearby house; he also summoned a Pit Fiend then immediatly Mazed it... What's up with that? You'd think they'd atleast protect themselves before summoning demons... My party was protected from evil, so it wouldn't have mattered in that sense, anyway. Could this be caused by the "Corrected summoned Demons behavior" tweak from the G3 fixpack?

Anyway. Now that I've killed Shangalar and his lackeys it seems I've effectively ended the Twisted Rune influence in Athkatkla. But I still don't understand what it was about; why was Reijek Hidesman trying to create the Flesh Tunic? What was the purpose of the Skin Dancers? Did anyone actually figure that out?

Thanks for reading!

EDIT
Another question that I can't let go: Why does my Daystar sword do two numbers of damage? It says it does extra damage to evil creatures, and double damage to Undead. So shouldn't that be a flat damage increase, i.e. a single number? Right now it strikes as if it was also doing elemental damage, "Did 20 damage to Lich" then "Did 4 damage to Lich" right under, which means the poor Lich can't get a single spell off and many of these latter battles have been ridicilously easy because of it.

[galraen]

Could this be caused by the "Corrected summoned Demons behavior" tweak from the G3 fixpack?

I think it must be, I've never experienced what you describe, and I've never used that 'fix'.

The Skinners plot line becomes clearer after you visit Trademeeet after finishing the Druid Grove. You'll need the note you found in Reijek Hidesman's house to finish the quest, the rest of the plot line can only be completed after the Underdark, depending on a choice you make there. Only an evil character should be able to complete it, as it involves killing a 'good' creature.

The extra damage from Daystar, and any other weapon that does additional 'magic' damage is a glitch, I don't think this can be fixed as it's hard coded in the engine. Basically the engine first calculates base weapon damage, then separately calculates additional 'magic' damage; and it does the second part even if the creature can't be hit by the weapon inflicting it.

If you are actually inflicting weapon damage on the demi-lich with Daystar by the way then you must be using a mod that fixes it's other 'glitch', namely that it's original form only has it set as a +2 weapon for what it can hit, it really should be +4 for what it can hit and there are mods out there that fix this.

[NocturneN]

I think it must be, I've never experienced what you describe, and I've never used that 'fix'.

I tried reinstalling the G3 fixpack and skipping the "Corrected Summon Demon Behavior" fix, but same thing happens. Ohwell, that fight was really easy, anyway.

Shangalar just had "Improved Mantle" (+4 immunity), so I just stuck Anomen with the Crom Faeyr on him. Then it was just a manner of True Sight to dispel their illusions and then I Power Word: Silenced Layene the Mage. Then Breach, and kill. Minsc tanked the Beholder and my MC tanked the Vampire. Really, I don't understand the developers here: if Shangalar would've simply used Protection from Magic Weapons instead of the useless Mantle spells, the fight might've been much harder.

The Skinners plot line becomes clearer after you visit Trademeeet after finishing the Druid Grove. You'll need the note you found in Reijek Hidesman's house to finish the quest, the rest of the plot line can only be completed after the Underdark, depending on a choice you make there. Only an evil character should be able to complete it, as it involves killing a 'good' creature.

I've done that quest, but I never understood what they were up to. They where creating "Skin Dancers" from all the skins? If that's the case, then, why? I tried the riddle in the Umar Hills until I got it right, but, indeed the guy only offers to finish the armor for you. As I'm RPing a Netrual Good char, that was out of the question anyway; I was just hoping to get some answers, which I didn't get.

The extra damage from Daystar, and any other weapon that does additional 'magic' damage is a glitch, I don't think this can be fixed as it's hard coded in the engine. Basically the engine first calculates base weapon damage, then separately calculates additional 'magic' damage; and it does the second part even if the creature can't be hit by the weapon inflicting it.

If you are actually inflicting weapon damage on the demi-lich with Daystar by the way then you must be using a mod that fixes it's other 'glitch', namely that it's original form only has it set as a +2 weapon for what it can hit, it really should be +4 for what it can hit and there are mods out there that fix this.

Hmm, no, actually just the magic damage gets inflicted...but...I'm confused. Are we talking about enchantment level or Thac0 here? Daystar has an enchantment level of +2, but it gets +4 thac0 against evil creatures - that means it can't hit creatures requiring +3 or higher ench. value, even if they're evil, right? Or you're saying it's the other way around? Anyway, the wierd thing here is that I remember Minsc doing no extra magic damage with Flame of the North; it seemed like the damage was all added into one number, which is why Daystar confuses me. For the record, I've never seen Minsc crit higher with ANY other weapon, not even the Warblade +4.

[galraen]

Are we talking about enchantment level or Thac0 here?

Enchantment level (to hit), which is what decides if a target can be hit or not. Daystar is supposed to have a THACO of +4 vs Evil creatures, but due to an error when setting the Enchantment to hit value it can't hit a creature that requires +3 or better to hit.

Flame of the North's extra THACO and damage are handled differently to most other weapons, instead of extra 'magic' damage the wielder's basic THACO and Damage are modified.

The skin dancers aren't explained very well at all, it's like there was a quest and story line that was started but never finished. Once they'd coded it up to where a PC can create the Human Flesh + then forgot about it, and frankly, unless you have the Item Upgrade mod the armour isn't worth the hassle. Especialy as only evil characters can wear it, which makes sense given what you have to kill to get it. The reason they were collecting all the skins I gather was to make multiple suits of armour, which is a bit strange given the other ingredient required.

[NocturneN]

Enchantment level (to hit), which is what decides if a target can be hit or not. Daystar is supposed to have a THACO of +4 vs Evil creatures, but due to an error when setting the Enchantment to hit value it can't hit a creature that requires +3 or better to hit.

Flame of the North's extra THACO and damage are handled differently to most other weapons, instead of extra 'magic' damage the wielder's basic THACO and Damage are modified.

So enchantment level and Thac0 are the same thing? Well, ofc, er... it's just that, since the Daystar is normally a +2 sword, you'd think it wouldn't be able to hit anything of +3 or higher; I thought the bonus +4 Thac0 only meant that it has a higher hit chance against evil creatures than normal creatures, not that it could actually inflict damage on +3 creatures...er. I understand what you mean, though; it's supposed to count like a +4 weapon against evil creatures, but they accidently set it to +2 - I simply thought that it was intended that way, not a bug.

Interesting to hear, I didn't know that. Flame of the North was the first weapon I obtained that did different amounts of damage dependant on alignement; that is why Daystar seems wierd to me, I thought FotN (Flame of the North)'s behavior was standard.

I just need one more thing clarified if you may, Daystar supposedly does double damage to Undead. So. How is the extra damage to Undead calculated? I don't think I've seen the "Magic damage" part hit for more than 7-8, but the actual weapon damage is way over the 20s. If we look at the weapon's standard damage; 3-10? Since most Undead are evil I guess the base damage is 5-12? Anyway, doubled that is 10-24, so shouldn't the magic damage part be much larger than what I'm seeing?

The skin dancers aren't explained very well at all, it's like there was a quest and story line that was started but never finished. Once they'd coded it up to where a PC can create the Human Flesh + then forgot about it, and frankly, unless you have the Item Upgrade mod the armour isn't worth the hassle. Especialy as only evil characters can wear it, which makes sense given what you have to kill to get it. The reason they were collecting all the skins I gather was to make multiple suits of armour, which is a bit strange given the other ingredient required.

Bah that sucks, that was easily the most interesting side quest in the whole game... *sigh*, I haven't been able to find anything about it on the internet either so I figured I'd ask here. I just found some general info about the Twisted Rune, but nothing regarding their involvement in Athkatla.

As for the armor, well...it's leather so crap AC and AC modifiers, but the SAVES! +4 to ALL saves!! AND 20% magic res...that is AMAZING! Honestly, it might not be something you'd use on a warrior but I'll eat my hat if this isn't THE BEST thief armor in the whole game! :O

Regardless, many thanks for your replies, Galraen, again very informative!

[galraen]

So enchantment level and Thac0 are the same thing?

No they're not, they are two separate attributes, I'm obviously not doing a very good job of explaining.

The THACO bonus and enchantment to hit are different. The first is what is added to your to hit roll, the second just defines what you can hit. So the THACO bonus of Daystar is +2/+4, which means, as it implies, that it adds two or four to you die roll vs non-evi/evil.

The Enchant to hit of 2 means that it will hit anything that doesn't either a) require +3 or better to hit or b) can't be hit by magical weapons.

As to the armour, I prefer quite a few others to the Human Flesh +5, several have better A/C and by the time you get it the plus 4 on saves is irrelevant, as you probably only fail on a 1 by then and a 1 is always a fail, irrespective of plusses. The 20% MR looks nice on paper, but I found anything less than 100% seems to get beaten; I don't know for sure if Bioware implemented the rule where every level of the caster over 11 deducts 5% from MR, but I get the feeling from playing the game that they do. If that's the case then when you start running into casters that are over 14th level that 20% is meaningless. Bottom line though is it's each to their own preference, no right or wrong here, and unless you char is evil it's a mute point anyway.

[NocturneN]

No they're not, they are two separate attributes, I'm obviously not doing a very good job of explaining.

The THACO bonus and enchantment to hit are different. The first is what is added to your to hit roll, the second just defines what you can hit. So the THACO bonus of Daystar is +2/+4, which means, as it implies, that it adds two or four to you die roll vs non-evi/evil.

The Enchant to hit of 2 means that it will hit anything that doesn't either a) require +3 or better to hit or b) can't be hit by magical weapons.

As to the armour, I prefer quite a few others to the Human Flesh +5, several have better A/C and by the time you get it the plus 4 on saves is irrelevant, as you probably only fail on a 1 by then and a 1 is always a fail, irrespective of plusses. The 20% MR looks nice on paper, but I found anything less than 100% seems to get beaten; I don't know for sure if Bioware implemented the rule where every level of the caster over 11 deducts 5% from MR, but I get the feeling from playing the game that they do. If that's the case then when you start running into casters that are over 14th level that 20% is meaningless. Bottom line though is it's each to their own preference, no right or wrong here, and unless you char is evil it's a mute point anyway.

Aye, that's what I said? The enchantment level is +2, the thac0 vs evil creatures is +4. So if an evil creature has an enchantment level of +3, then Daystar CANNOT hit it. Hmm, but you are saying the bug is that it's supposed to have an enchantment value of +4? Are you sure of this? Because there is nothing in the description that indicates it was supposed to be a regular +4 weapon, imo. It just has higher hit chance against evil creatures, and is supposed to do double damage to Undead (which it doesn't, it adds a small amount of extra magic damage instead). Eh, maybe I'm not doing a very good job of understanding, don't worry.

Well, thieves have really bad final saves, the +4 saves is definately useful for them, not to mention that alot of spells inflict penalties to your saves. As for the MR, I'm not sure, either, and if that's the case then it's obviously not that good.

[galraen]

Hmm, but you are saying the bug is that it's supposed to have an enchantment value of +4?

It should have an enchantment to hit of 4, otherwise it can't hit the very creatures it was designed to hit!

[NocturneN]

It should have an enchantment to hit of 4, otherwise it can't hit the very creatures it was designed to hit!

The way I see it:

It was never meant to be able to hit creatures higher than +2; It was only meant to give a higher hit chance to the die roll versus evil creatures. But you are probably right; the only visual hint of a weapon's enchantment level is thac0, and since it's +4 vs evil I suppose that's the enchantment level it's supposed to have. I'm just over-complicating things I'm sure, let's just leave it. Thanks for the info.

[QuenGalad]

The murders plot could use some additional work, that much is true, but since there are "rune assassins" (or something like that) down in his cellar, I'd say he had some wealthy protectors interested in his "work," probably the Twisted Rune gang. The Human Hide Armor may have been only the first step in his "career," and he might have well planned to perfect the process to create powerful protection for his evil allies.
The armor itself is best used on Viconia, to boost her own magic resistance. I once ShadowKept her into cleric/thief (made roleplaying sense to me) and she was quite powerful in that armor.

The summoned demons I've seen turn on the summoners or their allies if hit by AoE spells.

[galraen]

The summoned demons I've seen turn on the summoners or their allies if hit by AoE spells.

Your summons will turn on you if you hit them with AoE spells too, if you're summoning demons though presumably, unlike NPCs, you have the sense to make sure you all have PFE!

[NocturneN]

It would've been good if they explained those quests better, indeed. I read alittle bit about the Twisted Rune group on a Forgotten Realms wiki I found and it says there that they are struggling for power and control over the "Lands of Intrigue" - Amn, Tethyr and some other place nearby... But the wiki was rather vague and I didn't really gain much insight other than that.

I'm too much of a purist to go altering the NPCs in Shadowkeeper, I'm afraid. Though I have been considering beefing up Anomen and Imoen's secondary classes' levels to 13ish... Depends alittle on if I will be altering my Kensai/Mage here to 13/xx. I'll most likely leave it all alone, though, I like when characters have natural weaknesses and when their attributes are not perfect etc. Makes the game more challenging, and makes you pay attention to using them the best way. ^^ That armor will definately come to use when/if I roll an evil character, however.

Your summons will turn on you if you hit them with AoE spells too, if you're summoning demons though presumably, unlike NPCs, you have the sense to make sure you all have PFE!

Aye, this. You'd think for these NPC summoning fights they'd script them to use PFE. There's a storage room in bridge district that contains a 4man party that attacks you on sight; the first thing they do is to protect themselves with PFE, THEN their Mage Gates in a Demon...so it was quite strange that these high-levelled baddies seemed to have forgotten all about it. Layene the Mage gave me some other trouble the first time I did that fight, however, she cast a metoer swarm and began bombarding my party with fireballs. So, for the next time I simply went out of my way to PW:Silence her which stopped the demon summoning spell altogheter, then Breach'ed her and killed her before she could recover.

Also, finally, in regards to Daystar: I've just killed Kangaxx. Thinking back to what you said earlier Galraen, the weapon was actually able to inflict BOTH weapon damage and magic damage, i.e. I saw two numbers. So that fix you talked about, I must have it installed - presumably this is something the g3 fixpack fixes as that's the only mod I use. The Equalizer, conversevly just reported "weapon ineffective". As a Demi-Lich is immune to all but +4 and higher, it makes sense.

[QuenGalad]

I suppose the Twisted Rune party might have been scripted independently, without due regard to their respective tactics interacting. I remember at least once luring the Lich alone to the kinda-antechamber and finishing him off without the others so much as twitching. It would have been fun in a comic book - timestop and meteor swarms and demons all exploding in the doorway while the others sit around a table.

I'm too much of a purist to go altering the NPCs in Shadowkeeper, I'm afraid. Though I have been considering beefing up Anomen and Imoen's secondary classes' levels to 13ish...

I don't usually use Shadow Keeper to "power up" my npc's, but I often make "cosmetic" changes, my favourites being changing hair colour and avatars. But sometimes I change npc's classes if I find it fitting roleplay-wise, such as making Minsc a Barbarian, or indeed, Viconia a cleric/thief - I believe many of Shar's worshipers are that, and it fits her backstory of being on the run and in hiding and whatnot. Plus I don't really like her much and having her wear a pink armor does me good

[galraen]

If I ever use Minsc (very rare) then I always make him what he should have been from the start, a chaotic neutral (I'm being kind) berserker. Valygar I usually change to being a Wizard Slayer and Jan a Jester.

[NocturneN]

I don't usually use Shadow Keeper to "power up" my npc's, but I often make "cosmetic" changes, my favourites being changing hair colour and avatars. But sometimes I change npc's classes if I find it fitting roleplay-wise, such as making Minsc a Barbarian, or indeed, Viconia a cleric/thief - I believe many of Shar's worshipers are that, and it fits her backstory of being on the run and in hiding and whatnot. Plus I don't really like her much and having her wear a pink armor does me good

If I ever use Minsc (very rare) then I always make him what he should have been from the start, a chaotic neutral (I'm being kind) berserker. Valygar I usually change to being a Wizard Slayer and Jan a Jester.

Well, roleplay-wise it makes sense Quen, but I'd say changing Viccy into a thief/cleric is a rather big power up; you take a character which is rather bland and linear and give her a ton of utility. Viconia is actually my least favorable character in gameplay terms; she is a single-class Cleric that can't melee. The three other Clerics can either a) Melee, which makes them useful as offtanks or b) in the case of Aerie, provide crazy utility with mage spells, placing priest spells in sequencers etc. I'll eventually take her in an evil party purely because of her coolness factor of being a Drow (I find Drow incredibly interesting, for some reason), but if she also was a useful addition to the party (which she would be as a thief/cleric) her value would increase tenfold. The roleplaying reasons alone are enough for me to seriously consider it, though, so thank you!

Interesting that you should mention Minsc, I considered saying this in my topic about the Ranger: When I first met Minsc in BG1 I thought "Eh? This is a Ranger?! He's a warrior for christ's sake!", but the more time I spent with Minsc in my party, the more obvious his class of Ranger became. Many of the things he says, and how he behaves (not to mention his animal companion), is actually quite fitting of a Ranger, I think. Wouldn't say it'd be wrong to turn him into a berserker, or barbarian either though, he strikes me as having a special connection (and fondness) of nature.

Eh, besides, I'd take Minsc in the party for the comedic value alone, which is pure gold. I mean, just look at what I have in my signature, here: that conversation had me in stitches, I laughed so hard! Ah.. Minsc! Can you honestly, seriously, do anything but BLOODY LOVE Minsc?! And if his hilarous commentary is not enough, he has some of the most badass combat lines in the series: "Full plate, and packing STEEL!", "Make way villany, HERO coming though!!". ^^

[NocturneN]

Just figured I'd bump this up once to display, what I think, is probably the solution to my problem:

Protection Items Failing Due to Bad Targeting

"Some creatures have items equipped that provide racial bonuses, immunities, or protections. In a few cases these protections are not being applied due to bad targeting on the effects. For example, lichs are supposed to be protected from summoned demons and dragons are supposed to be immune to many projectiles such as arrows and axes."

From the G3 fixpack. Although I nowadays play with G3 installed, I didn't install it until late SoA (Somewhere in the Underdark, I think), so an educated guess on my part would be that some of these fixes were never properly applied to my game. Occasionally with large mods like these you need a fresh start for everything to work properly; typically instances of save games were you have already encountered certain monsters would not be updated. I could be wrong ofcourse, but the recommendation here is to simply install the fixpack before you start a new game. It will be interesting to see if I encounter these problems again in future playthroughs.

[galraen]

Viconia is actually my least favorable character in gameplay terms; she is a single-class Cleric that can't melee.

Only just spotted this. She certainly can melee, give her the right equipment and she's very effective in melee combat.

I disagree with you last post on a couple of things too. Why should Liches be immune to Demons unless they can cast protection from evil? Why should Dragons be immune to missiles if they haven't cast the appropriate spell, and why should Liches have a permanent, undispellable Globe of Invulnerability. Cheats like these that they put into the game annoy me as much, sometimes more, than the 'cheat' spells and items they let the player get her/his hands on!

[galraen]

PS Ring97 protects dragons from the PFNM overlay, not normal missiles themselves. Personally I've never successfully used Gate or the like against a Lich either. It's the amount of cheating that goes on in the game that annoys me: Hobgoblins that can hit opponents with a negative A/C (they seem to 'roll' an awful lot of natural 20s) with poison arrows that don't drop; rings of free action given out like candy on Halloween etc.!

PPS And don't get me started like the number of thieves that have real rings of invisibility (unlike the phony ones you find) that don't drop!!

[NocturneN]

Only just spotted this. She certainly can melee, give her the right equipment and she's very effective in melee combat.

What eq are we talking about here? STR is a non-factor, there's tons of STR items, but her CON is abit trickier to raise...you can use that girdle that sets CON to 18, but it can be dispelled and only lasts 8 hrs. Aside from that, the really crippling aspect of single-class Clerics is their APR which is only 1...I am not sure how you can ammend that w/o using clerical spells and haste to buff her up.

But really, I wrote this post when I was still in SoA; I've learnt abit about this game since then and no longer consider Viconia a bad character. In fact, she will be my main healer in my upcoming evil playthrough.

Haha, well I can understand your pain. I never said that Liches or Dragons should behave like that though; the G3 Fixpack, does.

[galraen]

The fix pack does some good things, but it also fixes a lot of things that aren't broken to fit someone else's perceptions of how things should work.

I am not sure how you can ammend that w/o using clerical spells

Well she is a cleric, so naturally one has to include that in summing up her fighting abilities. Should be accademic really, as a full party shouldn't need her in the front line, but in the back sommoning and using a sling (most bullets do add strength bonus, so use a buff and her sling can be very effective with her dex) and healing people. If she does get the urge to join the front line she can actually dish out more damage in one hit than any othr character (assuming you stick to role playing*) any other character. One hit with a harm spell and a two hundred HP monster is suddenly down to 1D4 health!

Harm spells should only be available to evil clerics, another fine balls up by Black Isle!