Predictable (Spoilers)

The Antichrist · Post by **The Antichrist** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 10:57 pm

Is it just me or did anyone else find ToB extremely predictable and on the whole a bit dissapointing? Like it was so obvious Melissan was the big bad guy and throughout the game i had no sense of purpose, it was if the whole game was 4 little quests and then Melissan, there was no real plot developement like BG1 and BG2, where as you progressed through the game, the whole story behind Sarevok and the Iron Throne, and Irenicus slowly were unraveled. Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed the game very much , maybe its just me who found the whole thing a bit predictable.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 11:34 pm

Can't say I found it predictable, but then, I honestly wasn't looking at the plot. I figure if it's a CRPG, the plot's going to be hokum, anyway. (Two games were exceptions for me: Betrayal at Krondor, and Planescape: Torment.) As it's an add-on, I didn't expect a full-length game, or a lot of non-linearity, or a devious plot. I wanted more of the same, and I thought Bioware delivered pretty well.

And by the way, is that the Beast 666 lifting its leg against you? It's the cutest little thing...!

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

rarsus · Post by **rarsus** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 5:47 am

Originally posted by The Antichrist:
.....Like it was so obvious Melissan was the big bad guy .....

Hmm, when exactly did you know Melissan was the bad guy? right after you've met Melissan at Saradush?

EPKJ · Post by **EPKJ** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:36 am

Originally posted by The Antichrist:
Is it just me or did anyone else find ToB extremely predictable and on the whole a bit dissapointing? Like it was so obvious Melissan was the big bad guy and throughout the game i had no sense of purpose, it was if the whole game was 4 little quests and then Melissan, there was no real plot developement like BG1 and BG2, where as you progressed through the game, the whole story behind Sarevok and the Iron Throne, and Irenicus slowly were unraveled. Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed the game very much , maybe its just me who found the whole thing a bit predictable.

Well, Melissan was predictable. Gromnir said she was deceitful. At that point, I was positive she was the end boss. Dialog usually has a purpose. This was very much like Minsc saying Boo did not like Yoshimo. I immediately knew Yoshimo was going to be trouble. What bothers me is that Throne Of Bhaal deserved to be a third game, not just an expansion. It is disappointing because it is obvious that corners were cut and plotlines rushed to condense it into an add on. This was a mistake. Adding Watcher's Keep and a few wilderness areas would have satisfied as an add on. Then Throne Of Bhaal could have been Baldur's Gate III. It could have been a truly grand epic conclusion which fully developed the Five and really blew players away. But, this was not to be.

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:11 am

I was ready to kill Melissan almost right off the bat. When she kept showing up saying, "Wait, don't fight... oh, I guess I am too late," I wanted to bash her head in (like after the battles with Gromnir and Yagashura). That has to be one of the all-time cheesey, cop-out story telling devices ever invented. Bioware had to write the entire storyline for TOB in about 5 minutes.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:59 am

Bioware were stretched for time, interplay after all had a financial slump, i suppose it must be a product of this that ToB was somewhat less that hoped. Producer putting pressure on developer, how many times have we heard this?

Okay so the story was not the greatest, but can you think of any 'great' saga that has had a particularly good ending?

I saw ToB as the logical conclusion to the BG saga, frankly there was only so much left with the Bhaal character. What other conflicts and dilemmas were you to face as a Bhallspawn?

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:41 am

Sleep is right, but at the same time, Yes, ToB could've been BG3, and it would've worked. And if Interplay hadn't been strapped for cash, then they probably would've done that. Making a final chapter in the saga that just blew everyone away! Even if it was a bit predictable, I still enjoyed it, and found it a suitable ending.

KillerKid · Post by **KillerKid** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 8:49 pm

i personaly would have enjoyed a whole time period between baldurs gate 2 and baldurs gate 2 throne of bhaal they really should have made a third before they ended the series. i really would have liked to see some other stuff happen in baldurs gate like maybe instead of fighting the great 5 maybe you fight another god who decides he hates you for some reason or anyother maybe that amulet u get from saradush or something like that. they should have made a game where he basicaly sends his menions after you and the whole thing happens kinda like SoA except witha full blown god then after that add the whole throne of bhaal xpack to baldurs gate 3 i think they could have made the game ALOT better

HistoEdw · Post by **HistoEdw** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:51 pm

I agree in that ToB was too predictable. Seems like whenever a character rushes in, says some lines, then darts out before you can attack or do any movement for that matter, you know something is up.

ToB made me better realize how great SoA was. There was so much development of characters, especially the arch villian Irenicus. Not only that, you have to admit that guy was one bad ass! Matter of fact, you give both him and Melissan only one life, and I'd pick him to win...

KillerKid · Post by **KillerKid** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:16 pm

i found that game more of battle after battle after battle in soa at least some of it was investigation

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:58 pm

Originally posted by KillerKid:
i found that game more of battle after battle after battle in soa at least some of it was investigation

Yeah, it was kinda IWD-like in that respect. But when you get so powerful, games tend to become a matter of "whose superpower is the biggest?" In that sense (and only that sense), I prefered BG1, because you advanced slowly, and each level seemed to matter more.

The Antichrist · Post by **The Antichrist** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 1:34 am

Personally i knew about Melissan was the end boss after i killed Gromnir, i confirmed my suspisions after i killed Yaga-Shura. I think the plot was extremely rushed, i think they could have done a lot more with the 'challenges', i think BG 3 would have been, the first 3 chapters exactly the same except with more plot development, i think chapter 4 would have slowly introduced us to a whole new threat, and over the final 3 chapters it is revealed to us that Cyric is out to claim the Throne of Bhaal for himself, which makes sense considering in one of the 'challenges' he tests you to see how much of a treat you are to him. Of course there would be a lot more to it than that but im just suggesting things of the top of my head here.

And also i thought that the high lvl abilities were a waste of time, the only one i used regularly was summon dark planetar, i found that my party could handle anything without high lvl abilities, the only use in even going up in lvls was a couple of extra HP and some extra spell slots, and even the spell slots were not that great as there is virtually no needed high lvl spells except spell trigger.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: The Antichrist ]

BilboTheHobbit · Post by **BilboTheHobbit** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 6:32 am

I liked the greater whirlwind, dark planetar, implosion and dragons breath. Not every special ability was a waste of time

HistoEdw · Post by **HistoEdw** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 6:41 am

Good point about leveling up too quickly. It used to be such a big deal to gain that next level in Baldur's Gate. I remember how it was such a huge deal when I could now cast one fireball or lightning bolt a day. But in ToB, characters were just too powerful. My thief would simply lay down traps of a level around 235 or so, and that was it. No boss ever stood a chance. All these articles I read about this game saying that you really need to plan ahead when fighting high level mages was a complete myth. Just rush in with a few fighters and it's game over. Don't get me wrong though, for I enjoyed ToB. It's just that those things I liked so much in previous games like having to use stealth, the satisfaction of finding 1-2 powerful magic items in a huge dungeon, or the joy of leveling up 1 level, became a thing of the past.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:07 am

Tob was made for POWERGAMERS(TM) it's that simple.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:22 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
Tob was made for POWERGAMERS(TM) it's that simple.

Odd, but it kinda reminds me of a fantasy-based MMORPG that I used to play a lot: GemStone. When I first started, it was a big deal to make 20 levels (that gave you a special title before your name), and that took 1-2 years. Fifty levels earned you "Legend" status--there were only a few, even after some folks played nightly for many years. When the game moved to AOL and subsequently to their own net server, they deliberately spiffed up the spells bigtime, added areas where enemies spawned very swiftly, and had folks making lord level within 6-8 weeks. It wasn't uncommon to see people with 150 levels.

They did this because they knew a lot of players get off on making that next bonus, learning that new skill or spell. This reduces the game to an endless series of bonuses, but it seems to be the way most players enjoy things.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:08 pm

Originally posted by The Antichrist:
Is it just me or did anyone else find ToB extremely predictable and on the whole a bit dissapointing? Like it was so obvious Melissan was the big bad guy and throughout the game i had no sense of purpose <snip>

I certainly agree with you about the predictability, Antichrist, but I still wasn't disappointed or enjoyed playing the game less. For some reason, I just knew Melissan would be the final boss as soon as I had asked her why she tried to save the Bhaalspawn. (You get this dialogue option very early in the game.) Her reply just seemed hollow, not enough, do undetailed compared to other BG NPC:s motivations.

Anyway, I still enjoyed the game a lot and found a satisfying conclusion to the series. As for the story, MPO is that the story line has been declining in a linear fashion, BG1 had the best storyline, ToB the least good. But I still think the storyline is very good compared to some other CRPG:s I've played, with the sole exception of Planescape:Torment.

humanflyz · Post by **humanflyz** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 8:42 pm

I agree that they should have made Throne of Bhaal Baldur's Gate III. They could have made it so not linear. Maybe Bioware should have halt the Five Bhaalspawn War. Maybe they should let the PC do some more exploring and through various means find that there are Five other most powerful Bhaalspawn trying to start a war. Then the PC meet up with Melissan and then the story could go on as it did in ToB with you killing off each Bhaalspawn and find out that Melissan betrayed all five of the Bhaalspawns and she's after you. I am just rambling here, but I am sure they could have made the story longer. I am sure a lot of you have better ideas.

Oh, does anyone know anything about the progress of TeamBG petition to let Bioware release the IE engine?