Fed-up with this game, and prob.s with a SOLO character..

[Scottg]

11 years ago I played it, got to the Severed Hand and it crashed on me - with a complete inability to progress further.

So trying it again 11 years later with a little different "flavor" by going "solo".

I thought.. hmm, Demarch of Mask for 11 levels and Wizard for 19 - should be enough experience points to do that on a solo basis..

Buzz - WRONG.

Because of the level difference I haven't seen any kill points since the middle of chapter 2. EVERYTHING since as has been "plot-based", and that hasn't kept-up with the required additional experience points for leveling-up a higher level character. I've got a Drow with its 2 level racial penalty which is further aggravating the experience point problem.

Once again at the Severed Hand and no crashes this time (yeah). But level-up-wise I'm "spinning my heels", Wizard 16 Cleric 9 seems to be about *it*, with a mountain of points required for the next level..



Anyway, so I'm pissed about the experience point thing.. but that's not why I'm calling it quits this time.

No, I play this game for quite some time (again), get to the Severed Hand (again), and this time I'm pretty much "plot-screwed".

I save this idiot priest of Ilmater and he starts spouting this contrived line of BS:

"Whoa, you are a cleric of Mask.. Mask sometimes ally's with Bane.. Bane is the father of Xvim.. You must be an ally of Xvim - so for sure I'm going to kill you (..despite having no spells or weapons and having been tortured for quite some time)"

What a load of CRAP.

Who writes this stuff? Makes me want to dip them in +5 body wax and gauss treatment (up to their chin), let it set, and then rip it off the @sshole.


***EDIT: There is a work-around in the dialog as mentioned in one of my posts below. I'll refrain from seeking the writers thorough waxing as a result. ***


..Yes - apparently you can avoid the quest (and a few others as a result), and "trudge-on-through" like a good little soldier to finish this turd of a game.

To that I say: F*** IT! That was the last and FINAL "straw". (EDIT: or not. )


(..sometime soon I'll update my thoughts on this game in the "Reviews" section.)


Here is my portion of the review for this game (currently bottom of thread page):

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threa ... ii.118714/

[Claudius]

So there was a way to beat it but you are through with it? Well at least you now know that you are done with the game. That's something to find in itself.

My part was:

Neutral Evil fighter mage
Chaotic Evil cleric of talos
Chaotic Evil Barbarain
Chaotic Neutral Mage
Neutral Evil Druid
True Neutral Rogue

The priest of Ilmater didn't have any problem with my party. How odd?

[Claudius]

You are so close to beating the game....

[Claudius]

You can not do the ritual and accede to bane.. Check the walkthrough. I think Xvim says screw it and lets you kill Isaer and Medai..

[Scottg]

So there was a way to beat it but you are through with it? Well at least you now know that you are done with the game. That's something to find in itself.

My part was:

Neutral Evil fighter mage
Chaotic Evil cleric of talos
Chaotic Evil Barbarain
Chaotic Neutral Mage
Neutral Evil Druid
True Neutral Rogue

The priest of Ilmater didn't have any problem with my party. How odd?

Yeah, Rika says something like - "that's tough, guess you'll just have to go ahead and attack.." It was at that point that I just "said" screw it and gave-up. I'm sure that not being able to progress on a quest-basis was not only going to be more difficult, but wouldn't give me ANY experience points. Up until then I had some hope of *perhaps* getting to level 17 for at least one 9th level spell for the final battle. Most of the time it was just my character's development that was "stringing-me along". A *few* battles were interesting, but not many.

The most entertaining and memorable was the optional "Holy Sword" bit in the cemetery back in Kuhldahar. 14th level Wizard/9th level Cleric and I had to use every trick in the book to survive that battle. It was like I was hearing "Run Forest, Run.." in the background. I honestly have NO idea how many times I circled that main portion of the cemetery grave-sites. Mordenkainen's Sword saved my ass BIG-TIME.



I think with the Priest of Ilmater it depends on who talks to him. Still though, just how does he know that I'm a priest of Mask? They never mentioned that little "bit" of information. I'm guessing that *any* of your party would have been OK to speak with him except perhaps for your Cleric, and even then that's doubtful. For me it was just some @sshat who decided to script it into the game that way. Honestly, even if I was a priest of Bane I don't think it makes any sense - it's just a very stupid plot device. Just how will weakening the Severed Hand with the help of Ilmater help Xvim? (..Bane maybe, but that's not what he is objecting to.)


-should have gone with the tried and true Aasimar Sorcerer/Paladin for my solo, but I was to "smart" for my own good.

Oh well, at least I don't feel I'm doing work anymore playing a game.

[Scottg]

You are so close to beating the game....

Yup, but not close at all to getting to level 17 as a Wizard.

[Scottg]

You can not do the ritual and accede to bane.. Check the walkthrough. I think Xvim says screw it and lets you kill Isaer and Medai..

I haven't removed the game yet.. or the later saves. Perhaps someday I'll do that before the next computer build. Who knows, perhaps I'll get a nasty cold again (..which is what gave me the time to play this thing). I'll be like: "Yeah!" Cough, Cough, Hack, Spit - "I can finish Icewind Dale II!"

Just finishing the game however isn't a lot of motivation for me, in that I really dislike it.

That alternate "path" seems about as logical as the rest of the game's "plots". How could a team that developed such a work of art like BG2 (or even better PS:T) have written this convoluted mess?

[Claudius]

Yup, but not close at all to getting to level 17 as a Wizard.

This: Create 5 monk paladins and cast invisibility on them in the corner of the map to bring the average party level down... Too cheesy?

[Scottg]

This: Create 5 monk paladins and cast invisibility on them in the corner of the map to bring the average party level down... Too cheesy?

..and in creating each of you I name you all: "The Fifth Member of the Away Team."

-here I thought leaving a map during a battle was cheesy. Makes me want some Nachos to snack on.

[Scottg]

This: Create 5 monk paladins and cast invisibility on them in the corner of the map to bring the average party level down... Too cheesy?

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it's possible - specifically: is it possible to create another player late in the game and "insert" them into the party?

Instead of using them to get back experience points, I'm thinking more along the lines of having someone to talk to the priest that won't piss him off.


EDIT:

Ha, there *is* a work-around provided in the dialog sequence with the priest of Illmater.

At the start of the conversation you basically need to say "see ya", and then go back and talk to him again. At that point he gives-up his info. on the ritual.

I'll probably finish it after all - at least when I can get the time sometime this or next week.

[Scottg]

Well, I spent late last night finishing off the twins. (..hmm, that sounds a little filthy.)


I did manage to get enough experience from the various quests to get to level 17 as a Wizard, and one 9th level spell as a result. Didn't do me any good though.

Ex. Mass Dominate Person didn't work on a single opponent for the fight on top of the War tower, and this is despite having a decent Intelligence modifier of +6 AND both Enchantment focuses. Honestly, what's the point?


The ending battle sequence was about as absurd as it could possibly get.

EDIT: (I'm wrong here, wasn't paying enough attention to the story.) As a "starter" - Cambions (which the twins are), are supposed to be either Lawful Evil, or Neutral Evil - but they are supposedly serving a God that is predominately *Chaotic* Evil. Moreover their actions throughout are overall very chaotic (..virtual destruction of the Ten Towns, despite their claims, and use of the highly unstable Mythal).

The real "kicker" is that Madae is a NOT a cleric of Xvim, but rather of Cleric of Bane. I don't know about you, but personally I find that appalling (even if Xvim is the son of Bane).

Then there is the "small" fact that you manage to kill their God before them. (..or at least his temporary manifestation.) Sadly that fight with Xvim was more interesting than the twins. The one thing I didn't like however was the limited floor-space (..vs. the fight with the Twin's that had plenty of floor space with obstructions). In fact that limited floor space for the battle was a reoccurring problem throughout the game.

The final battle itself starts off pretty good, again - good floor space with obstructions, interesting help on both sides, etc..

HOWEVER, once you get rid of the help the game becomes impossibly stupid.


It's primarily all about defenses of your opponents (..those of the twins).

Madae has on Protection from Arrows. Umm, she is a 20th level Cleric of Bane (..again, moronic), and a 10th level Fighter. She does NOT have the spell Protection from Arrows - that's only from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell grouping. Ok, *perhaps* Issair cast it on her, but it seems a little hinky.

Madea's Protection from Arrows is a little hinky, but Issair puts on Anti-magic Field after a bit (..he tends to start with Globe of Invulnerability, Blue Fire Shield, and Seven Eyes). ..you know, Anti-magic Field because he is this powerhouse of a killing machine in melee with the structure of his classes: Sorcerer 20, Rogue 10, with an 18 in Strength and dual-wielding. Why in the hell would a 20th level Sorcerer use Anti-magic Field? It's not like he pre-buffs with Haste and Tensers and THEN puts on Anti-magic Field. Further, BOTH seem to have VERY high Spell Resistance AND Saves, PLUS Issair has EVASION. Honestly, the last thing he needs is Anti-magic field. It's just beyond MORONIC. (..Issair picks up the gun, aims the but of it at me, and pulls the trigger.)

Next - both of the twins have an AC of 30 WITHOUT BUFF's or even Dexterity modifiers. Just how in the Hell do they manage that? It's not outrageous (or it wouldn't be but for the small fact that it isn't derived from equipment but is rather "Natural Armor" instead), but it's more than a little "ripe" IMO (.."ripe" as in: smelling bad, real bad). Without buffs there is one suit of Armor (in-game) that provides +10 AC with a max Dexterity of +2. Along with a max +3 in Deflection bonus. That's 25 AC. Something like the Golden Girdle would also add +3 to slashing weapons for a total of 28 AC against slashing weapons (only). That's still not 30 AC. Their AC is actually 35 (Madae) and 36 (Issair) due to their Dexterity modifiers.

The worst part however are the immunities.

Issair seems to be immune to everything but Piercing damage and Electricity (and secondary from Acid and Cold). He either resists or Evades most damage though.

Madae seems to be immune to everything but Blunt damage and Cold damage.

Maybe this is a Mythal thing? (..it's certainly not God granted - I put the hurt on him and cut-off his healing grant). It's definitely NOT a "buff" thing, and I don't see how it could be an item effect (their equipment was surprisingly weak after I looted their bodies). Moreover Cambions only have some *resistance* to fire damage, but the twins are completely immune to fire damage.

Worse - that Piercing and Blunt damage requires +4 or higher weapons, and if it's ranged weapons it seems to require +5 ammunition. (..you have to wait until Madae's Protection from Arrows wears-out to attack her with a sling - again a +4 sling or better. As far as I know there are no +4 or +5 throwing hammers.)

Even Worse - assuming you can meet those conditions, they still have 15 in damage reduction to each type that they are NOT immune to (..and this includes that elemental damage as well). Though after certain protections are "off" Madae takes 5 bonus in Cold damage.

Then there is actually being able to hit them.. At one point I tried out some melee on them - buffed with Haste, Tenser's, and Black Blade of Disaster (and several other buff's). Attack numbers were 40/35/30 - AND COULD NOT HIT EITHER TWIN. WTF? Never mind not being able to *damage* them. In fact only with the Brillant Short Sword could I hit Issair in battle, and even then it was about one in 30 attacks, and more like one in 60 that did any damage at all (probably because it required a critical to get damage up high enough to over-come the 15 damage resistance). The "Brillant" portion of the Brillant Short Sword seemed to be not so brilliant after all. (..probably because their armor isn't really "armor" - something more like Natural Armor of *20* .)

..continued to next post.

[Scottg]

But wait, there's more!

Some spells work against them - and it seems exceedingly arbitrary as well.

Spell Resistance: It's almost as if Spell Resistance was toggled-off for some spells. Still, it's tough to say because the spell descriptions are so damn obtuse. I *think* the twins have racial spell resistance. To the best of my knowledge Cambions shouldn't - so I don't know what their spell resistance is or what it should be. IF it's racial then with their class level of 30 it should be 42 or 44 (though usually 42). Unless you have a VERY high level spell caster that has the Spell Penetration feat*s* of +4 AND uses Lower Resistance (within it's 20 round duration), then you won't overcome their spell resistance. I couldn't EXCEPT for certain spells, and again - I'm not really sure if that was appropriate or not. Oddly, I'm not complaining about their spell resistance, my complaint is rather with seemingly arbitrary nature of some spells working and others not (..or perhaps just the generally poor descriptions of each spell).

The same is also true for Issair's Evasion. Some spells he just can't seem to Evade.

Ex. Prismatic Spray.

Neither resist this spell, in 3.5 at least it does have a Spell Resistance component, but it doesn't seem to be a factor here.

Madae - no damage, ever.

Issair - *always* damage. (though a 2nd pass through it - no damage.) No Evasion ever, despite it having a Reflex save structure. It also always seems to hit him with electrical damage, sometimes he makes his save for half, sometimes not. He does however always get 15 in electrical damage removed from the total damage amount.

Ex. Lance of Disruption.

Spell Resistance? Unknown. BUT I never get this listed as a limitation.

Madae - *always* damage, but she has 15 in damage resistance taken off of the total, and sometimes she makes her Reflex save.

Issair - no damage, ever. I don't remember if he Evades it first or not.

Ex. Lightening.

Spell Resistance? Unknown.

Madae - no damage, ever. Presumably due to damage resistance, because I don't remember a Spell Resistance check.

Issair - no damage, ever. He always Evades it. (Chain Lightening same effect..) (..note that my character had a +6 to DC from Intelligence of 22 and a +8 to DC from both Evocation spell focuses, while Issair only has a +6 to saves from his Dexterity of 22).

Most Cold spells however work against Madae. Go figure. But she still gets 15 damage to resist when protected, and she usually makes her save (even with a good DC from your caster). Almost nothing works on her while she has her full protections "up". So it's a good idea to do a lot of running to waste time on her protections, and perhaps trying out a few dispel magics.

There are also some spells that just don't seem to "register" at ALL. Otiluke's Resilient Sphere? FORGET ABOUT IT. No Spell Resist check, no save, no NOTHING. Nor does Flesh to Stone or Disintegrate.

Horrid Wilting and Acid Storm work occasionally once their protections have expired.

[Scottg]

Offensively?

There is almost a complete lack of spell casting on the twins part.

Yeah, a 20th level Cleric and a 20th level Sorcerer and the best they seem to muster is almost exclusively related to their defenses, most of which are pre-buffed before the battle takes place.

What a complete waste of a character build.

Note: Madae will use Heal on herself at the start of your second fight unless you can some how kill her before that (..which I HIGHLY doubt), OR disrupting her casting which is also very difficult. So it's like "starting all over again" going after her. That's not the case for Issair.

It *might* also depend on your character.. Mine had spell resistance, and I don't know if there is "meta-gaming" on the part of the AI that knows if my character is likely to resist or not. On a few occasions Madae summons. And Issair will also do a few spells - but for the sake of your "henchmen" (assuming you have some based on what you did in the game).


BUT.. it seems to make perfect sense because their ability to hit your characters is absurdly high (..given their class structure, lack of buffs, and mediocre Strength modifiers of 20 (Madae) and 18 (Issair), and their overall limited weapons which aren't higher than +4, and really aren't that great.)

Honestly, Issair shouldn't be able to hit as often as he does as a level 20 Sorcerer/ level 10 Rogue. The BAB just isn't there without buffs - and neither seem to improve their attack numbers or damage with Buff's. (..this is versus a character that has just about every buff on for AC.) again, he is also dual-wielding large weapons and only has 18 in Strength.

Ironically Madae seems to hit less often than Issair. (..and her BAB is vastly better.)


There was also one other VERY disturbing thing that was going on.

Both seemed to have a "Stun" attack and a "Contagion" attack.

I'm assuming they are Racial, but my character got "hit" by these attacks more than once.

Worse - I was never able to make the "save" on either (and I don't think there even was a save check on the Stun effect).

FAR Worse - the game provides absolutely NO defense against the Stun effect. MIND BLANK does NOT work (..nor does the 5th level Cleric spell: Greater Command.)

I guess the only "up-side" is that it only seems to effect your characters for about 3 rounds - but that can be a life-time (..literally for your characters).

[Scottg]

So, what did it for me? (..in that I didn't stock-up on Cold Spells to hurl at Madae.. nor did I have the feat: Aegis of Rhime)

Pretty much both portions of the fight with the twins were exclusively with low damage via +4 sling with +5 bullets (Madae), or +4 Crossbow and +5 bolts (Issair).

Ultimatly I had more +5 bolts than bullets - so Issair got to complain to Orrick at the end. (..and Madae basically called him a pussy..er - cat.)


That's right, I spent an enormous amount of my night having my character run around in circles hoping to hit Issair for a few points of damage (..while keeping *just* far enough away to avoid being hit).

What a stupid waste of time.




I seriously recommend staying away from this game, few moments are really well designed and fun.

I particularly recommend staying away from a solo-run. (..perhaps 2 or 3 would be better.)


IF you are determined to go through it solo then I'd recommend an Assimar Sorcerer with one level of Paladin and a VERY high Charisma.

Feats: Dash, Aegis of Rhime, Spirit of Flame, Subvocal casting, Both Evocation spell focuses, Strong Back, and then both Spell Penetration focuses, etc.. (in that order).

Of course selecting those spells will be critical. Improved Invisibility is probably the most important spell in the game - and in fact I wouldn't even go for my Paladin level until acquiring that 4th level spell (..meaning delay in Paladin until at least level 9). Lower Resistance is the other "must", but it won't be needed until your last 5th level spell is selected. (..and I think 6th level Tenser's is pretty important too.)

[Endugu]

Interesting analysis!
I can relate to your frustration - I once played through the game with an all-cleric party of five and finally gave up on the final battle. It was just too frustrating trying to damage the twins. Which surprised me, considering that my party managed to steam-roll through every other part of the game.
But on the other hand, I think not being able to rest between the halfdragon battle atop the tower and the final fight is a bit unfair for any spellcasters. Especially since you're given no warning that the final confrontation starts immediately.

It seems to me part of your frustration seems to stem from your solo run. While it's possible to play that way, the game is clearly is designed and balanced with a party of characters in mind. That doesn't render the rest of your criticism invalid (and I agree for the most part with it), but I always assumed only stubborn people who like being frustrated would even attempt to complete a solo run!

One question: Did they change cambions to being lawful evil with 3rd edition D&D? I'm only familiar with cambion from the 2E Planescape setting where they're listed as the offspring between a mortal and a demon and are thus chaotic evil.


I was thinking about giving this game another try, but your posting made me reconsider. I mean, there are already some parts that I didn't exactly really like about Icewind Dale 2. But for the most part they're not even those that you mentioned!
Maybe I'll give it another try at some later time. Or maybe I should look into some mods to make this game more enjoyable to me.

[Scottg]

If it weren't for lack of experience points on kills (something I didn't know about before starting ), going solo wouldn't have been nearly so stupid as it sounds. My idea was: fast leveling and using summons, and getting to level 30 well before the final battle. For almost half of the game that idea worked splendidly.

(..note: I should mention one other potential problem with a solo run as a Wizard: access to spell scrolls (and as a result: spells). Because of my Cleric levels and the reduction in leveling later due to a lack of experience points from kills - I didn't really have this problem. Though it was frustrating to not have the spells I wanted at the time I wanted them.)

Most of my difficulty with this game as a solo run was at low levels (1-4), not higher levels - and not for very long either.

Once I hit 5th level Cleric (with one level of Wizard) I had my Animate Dead warrior. Note that because of my Drow class I was effectively at level 8. At that point I could save the game, rest (and make sure that it was a rest without intrusion), and then summon 1 more Animate Dead warrior (total 2). Then I'd just go invisible and have them very slowly clean each "map". Rinse and Repeat. I had another Animate Dead warrior at level 6 Cleric (total 4 with resting). It was a LOT easier when I hit level 7 Cleric and got the "bump" to my Animate Dead spell (giving me Boneguards), and also my domain's access to Improved Invisibility. At that point it was pretty much a "cake-walk".

Only very few fights really caused me difficulty, and even then - it wasn't because the opponents were better offensively, but rather they had better *defenses* then they should of had. (..and that annoying theme only got worse.) (..those freak'n Knight Slayers of Xvim - caused me all sorts of problems when placed in battles where I didn't have time to do my summons.)

There were however occasions where opponents *were* better than me offensively (and without absurd defenses) - and on those occasions the game was truly challenging and as a result - FUN!

The Necromancers in the Ice Maze near the Ice Temple were really brutal, and provided a great deal of enjoyment. The "map" itself also provided enough territory and barriers to move around. It's too bad the aesthetics of the map were so ugly.


Cambions:

..could be Demon and a Mortal, which would make more sense for Chaotic Evil. However, the only Demon that makes *physical* sense to me is a Succubus and a mortal man. Demons (male-type) are generally prone to violence (chaotic), and are MUCH stronger than most mortals. Plus they are barbed all-over, right? I really don't envision a female elf living through a rape by a demon. (..and if Cambions were originally designated as offspring of Demons, perhaps that's why they changed them to Devils?)

In any event - I think it is actually mentioned in the game/Kuldahar (the father's infernal nature), but I don't remember. He probably was a Demon and I'm wrong. I've got a bunch of saves at various points.. I'll try checking it out and I'll report back.

Yup (good catch! ), the story explains it:

Demon father and the mother didn't survive. She was resurrected.. pregnant. (..sort of a three-for-one deal on the Resurrection, no?) Personally I blame Ilmater for giving Egania that much power with her Resurrections.

Hmm, aren't the cambions barbed as well?

[LastDanceSaloon]

yes indeed, the final battle in this game is really on the point of ludicrous - the first time. Like most boss battles it's a problem of the unknown. Once you know it's secrets, everything's doable, but on first sight it's totally over-the-top. And I agree, the second part of it is completely unnecessary overkill, especially with the inability to rest.

I'm glad to say though that what the IWD series does do well is keep you free as much as possible. The end-boss is a dreaded lock-in where as most of the game is happily free from this. Infact, most of the most controversial areas are the lock-in areas. You'd think the RPG makers would learn from this. I'm about to do a rant about Balder's Gate II on a similar topic, but that's about the first 20 hours, not the last 30 minutes, lol.

The extra level thing is a funny one to get excited about. Those last-minute spells are ok for standard troops, but mostly they are ineffectual for the major challenges as most rely on beating XYZ saving throw. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they programmed some characters with over 9,000 to saves in the areas which would be effected by the dramatically over-powered Symbol spells just for the sake of challenge. But generally, no, I've never really even thought about XP being a major issue in the game. I know some do, but I never feel the game needs it, so I never think about it.

I have to say, soloing a theif/mage as you're come-back game seems a bit over-dramatic as well, lol, but each to their own.

[Endugu]

To adress Scottg's point about demons: There are sooo many variants of them in D&D, not to mention tha evry new editon probably added some more. There's succubi, balors, alu-fiends (the female counterpart to cambions), glabrezu (the demon that guards the door in the Severed Hand is one), mariliths (featured as a certain infamous "dungeon boss" in Icewind Dale) and many, many more.

Some of them are barbed, some are scaled, some are hideous, some are terrifying, some beguiling.
Cambions are described as being not exaclty handsome by human standards, but at least they arent' covered in bards.
The encyclopedia entry on planewalker.com lists some more examples of different demons and is generally a good starting point for all things planar in D&D.

...

As for the thread's original topic, I think I wont start another playthrough too soon.
Thought about it once more and remembered that one thing that put me of this game were the locations. They often were too crowded, sometimes too random and quite often very...surreal.
"Surreal" is not something that I expected from the successor to Icewind Dale. Especially since that game features some of my favorite locations and location designs.

[Scottg]

Thought about it once more and remembered that one thing that put me of this game were the locations. They often were too crowded, sometimes too random and quite often very...surreal.

"Surreal" is not something that I expected from the successor to Icewind Dale.

Especially since that game features some of my favorite locations and location designs.

Hmm, makes me want to play Ice Wind Dale I.

[Endugu]

Have you tried Icewind Dale?

It's quite different from it's sequel, mainly due to using a quite different ruleset, but also in terms of plot, battles and overall design. I'm probably biased though, since it remains my favorite Infintiy Engine game.
I know a lot of people don't warm up to it because of it's "old school" design and gameplay elements.