Pole arms using character

[Arioch7]

Hello everyone!
I got a question I hope you can give me an answer to. It's been a long time since I played this game, and a couple of days ago, after I found out MMXII existed (yeah, I am that late), I wanted to play through it one more time, as I have fond memories of it, despite all of the bugs.
After I read reviews of the remake, I saw that they fixed some old problems (good thing), made some new issues (minor bad thing) and revamped the class/level-up system (major deal breaker for me). So I went into searching through my discs, and found my CE (bought off second hand through internet some years ago).
Now, I don't have enough time for trial and error in building viable characters that won't have their a**es handed to them in end game (between my job and my family) and the concept I am set upon right now is heavy pole arms using character with a little bit of support celestial/rune magic thrown in.

Class combo I am thinking of going into is Adept/Fighter(not sure)/Imperial/Valkyrie/Warlord. The reasoning behind this is that Warlord has bonuses in pole arms, nice Inflict wounds AND very nice heraldry bonus which (IIRC) gives 20% higher damage and attack speed with pole arms. Imperial is there as it is required for Warlord. Valkyrie synchronizes well with both Adept and pole arms. Imperial/Warlord also opens up the Master heraldry bonus (IIRC) which would be awesome if true. The second base class I am not sure about, but I think fighter does best.

Now the problem with this is: I remember the pole arms attack speed being very low. Will heraldry make it better that it is enough to make this play style viable?

I apologize for this wall of text, but I really need your advice on this, as I can't afford the time needed to get to the 3rd tier class and find out it was all for nothing. If it is not good, I will fall back to my original build which I know for sure is awesome (my 1st playthrough and various other players' experiences) which is Adept/Mage/Enchantress/Paladin/Warwitch. Thank you all in advance.

P.S. I think there is an awesome heavy pole arm called Angelic something in a tomb where the nigh-impossible-to-kill-demon-thingy roams, and it is a fixed drop. Do I remember it right?

[swcarter]

P.S. I think there is an awesome heavy pole arm called Angelic something in a tomb where the nigh-impossible-to-kill-demon-thingy roams, and it is a fixed drop. Do I remember it right?

It's the [url='http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=DungeonLords_Items_List&_cgifunction=search&DungeonLords_Items.installation=%22Dungeon Lords%22&DungeonLords_Items.itemname=angelic%20destroyer']Angelic Destroyer[/url]. You can find it in the [url='http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlords/walkthrough/tombofsouls.php']Tomb of Souls[/url].

My memory of polearms is the same as yours -- they're really slow -- but I never tried them with a warlord.

SWC

[Scottg]

It's been a long time for me as well.. BUT I do remember weapons and their use *very* well.

Pole-arms are my favorite for this game, followed by hand-to-hand, and then Samurai + Wakizashi swords.

I spent many, many hours just having fun with the blue lions on the small island in the upper west portion of the map.

For all of the weapons you tend to build-up a certain technique and "rhythm". The most elegant is the Polearm, perhaps because it is a little slower. BUT its attack pattern (with more points in the weapon) changes depending on your number of attacks and movement (with when you attack).

The thing is - most opponents will also change their attack style as a result. In the case of Polearms they become more picky about their aggression, and tend to stand back because of its range. A mix of "side-swipe" attacks on your part tends to enforce this. Note however that with Pole-arms (and typically large groups of opponents), you are best off having something to your back - like a wall or similar obstruction.

Now then, what's the "best" as far as the most difficult opponents are concerned?

Dual-wield with Bleeding wound effect and off-hand with "Nether" strike (from a Kama if I remember correctly). It's not that either effect does much in the way of damage, but rather that it tends to "kick-back" the opponent again and again, effectively removing their ability to attack back (..which is critical with the really tough opponents). Both effects in combination do this more effectively. The Arcane spell Whirlwind does this as well while also pushing the opponent back. Note that there are a few weapons with Bleeding wound (..I remember a short sword and an axe). Note that Ice effects don't work on the most difficult opponents.. they do work great on a certain Witch though (..who is also difficult), and that effect is generally better all-round.

So IF you want to try melee with the final boss - that's what I'd recommend. Otherwise stick to Cataclysms, Blast Novas, and Whirlwinds.

My overall favorite 3rd tier class (having played them all numerous times) is the Hatamoto. Most powerful combo: Samurai-Wizard (dual-light wield + inflict wounds + Spellfire).

[Arioch7]

First of all, thank you all for fast replies. I didn't really expect it, this being an old game and all.

@ swcarter: Yes, that's the one I was thinking about. I saw it when I was playing my warwitch (saved before rewards), but since I couldn't use polearms, I reloaded and took Cataclysm spell as a reward.

@Scottg: I read on forums that dual wield is awesome. And, I guess I can relate to why that is. It is not however what I would want to play at the moment, as dual wield is my usual go-to in games of this type (last one I played as dual wield was skyrim, but I also played NWN 1 and 2, Sacred 1 and 2, and so on, always ending up with dual wielding characters).
This time around, I would want to try polearms, because they do sound fun, and also (from what I read on the topic) are much more challenging and rewarding (concerning fun) than dual wield. My concern is if I would be able to kill the last boss with this setup. I know it is possible with dual wield (that thing makes mince-meat out of anything), and I know spells are OP in this game. In my 1st playthrough, I went with loads of points in Arcane, Celestial and Drainlife. Concerning spells, I was alternating between Ice shards (arcane, for crowd control) and Lightning (channeled damage) with a couple of novas and later cataclysms thrown in. I was running through the game like this without a hitch until last boss who was immune to Ice shards and a lot of fire spells, but was getting damaged with cataclysms and lightning, so I didn't have hard time beating him down.
Warlord class gets very good heraldry which gives +4 strike with polearms, +20% damage with polearms and +20% speed with polearms. It seems that it would remove some of the speed issues pole arm character faces, but I am not sure of how much it would be noticeable.

Again, thank you or your kind replies

[GawainBS]

In my experience, it's easy to stack attack speed, so that the actual weapon speed no longer mattered. I've gotten very good results with Polearms. They're my favourite kind of weapon too.
I played an Adept/Mage/Valkyrie/Monk/Shaolei Master with Polearms. Plenty of attack speed. Only a bit long winded to get your armour/heavy (pole)weapon skills up to the minimum, given the lack of learning bonuses in those areas. You do have lots of resistance and more learning bonuses in magic, though, which I find invaluable, even if magic is only a back up.

P.S.: Adept/Mage/Enchantress/Paladin/Warwitch is my favourite build too.

[Scottg]

My concern is if I would be able to kill the last boss with this setup.

Not really.



A Warlord's Inflict wounds helps, but you don't hit him anywhere near as often as with a dual-light wield setup.

I've tried it several times and always had to resort to some kind of magic, either for reducing his hit-points and/or disabling him (..via Whirlwinds). (..the summoned floating "Angels" can also be decent distractions, but they don't last long.)

The problem is, no matter what kind of armor you have - it's not enough. He just hits for to much damage (and he does it surprisingly quickly as well). Plus, he has a LOT of hit-points.

[Scottg]

In my experience, it's easy to stack attack speed, so that the actual weapon speed no longer mattered. I've gotten very good results with Polearms..

..Plenty of attack speed..

Yes, it's not *slow* - but it certainly is slower than the other melee-types. (..even with the Heraldry.)

[Arioch7]

The thing is, I wanted to use some magic. Rune magic gives some nice buffs (and is buffed with several of these classes), and adept also opens up some celestial magic. What I didn't want to do is completely rely on magic for damage, meaning no offensive damage dealing spells. That is the alternate path I was willing to take if this class combo is not enough to down the last boss.
So, the consensus is that it might be able to pull it off, but it would be difficult and almost impossible. So, barring dual wield (which is something I don't want to do), melee characters cannot compete with spellcasters.

So, long story short, I will go through the game as Adept/Mage/Enchantress/Paladin/Warwitch.

Thank you all for the insight and information. It is not what I was hoping for, but it is very helpful.

Since I will start the game probably tomorrow, if you think you can add something, please do. Thanks again.

[Scottg]

So, barring dual wield (which is something I don't want to do), melee characters cannot compete with spellcasters.

Only for two opponents - The one in the crypt to the left passage way as you enter the Tomb of Souls, and the final Boss. That's only about .1 % of the game. (Both have critical immunity as well..)

The rest of the time melee done well with any of the weapon-types is reasonably competitive.

The way points are distributed in this game though, you'll probably end-up a spell-caster of all disciplines - if perhaps not a great spellcaster in all of them.

[Arioch7]

I started a warwitch path. Currently lvl6 and still farming XP at the shacks (1 more level). I might start the polearm thing later on as pet project if I find the time. If not, I am still gonna thoroughly enjoy the game blasting stuff with lightning, flame and frost
I just wanted to hop in and thank everyone once again for the advice. It is much appreciated.

[Scottg]

..and still farming XP at the shacks (1 more level).


I just wanted to hop in and thank everyone once again for the advice. It is much appreciated.

No, prob.s.


Note, I never farm early in the game (anymore), there isn't a lot a value experience-point wise. Neither the shacks nor the sewers. In fact I run through the sewers without doing much of anything there (except a ranged attack on the guy holding the key at the end of it). You can always go back to it later if you want.

Best place to farm at lower levels is in the city near a guard post and Fighter guild. LOT's more experience = MUCH faster leveling (and more money and potions). Guards to help-out (good to heal them as well). Just make sure you get the "kill" for each opponent. (..typically using cheap throwing weapons while looking at their health level and attacking those that are on the verge of death.) I also "level-squat" when doing it. Note: make sure the Guards aren't killed (which generally means saving before each battle).

After the leveling seems to "top-off" there I tend to book-it on over to the North West island to play with the blue lions (by way of the North-West passage). Again, ignoring just about everything by out-running everything.

[galraen]

I got inspired by the concept of Adept/Fighter/Imperial/Valkyrie/Warlord so, having got bored with my Oblivion re-run decided to give it a go.

So far I've completed the first four, just Warlord to go. I'm at the free Lord Davenmore stage of the game,. I wasn't sure if the skill learning bonuses from Valkyrie and Imperial stacked, they do, which makes life a lot easier, I already have the qualifications for Warlord, just the quests to do.

Because of the graphic inadequacies of my laptop, in conjuncture with the appalling way the game engine handles water graphics I'm really struggling when around water, the game almost grinds to a halt. This made the Valkyrie promotion quest almost impossible, and I only got through it thanks to the good old universal standby, poison cloud!

Because of the mobs the game throws at you it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to get through the game just using a pole arm, or indeed any weapon, at some point magic is not simply optional. Fortunately you don't have to spend a lot of skill points to be able to use poison cloud, so that is always a good back-up.

Since I acquired the Winged Destroyer in the Valkyrie Quest however I've had to rely on PC a lot less, the weapon really kicks derriére! In fact when I started the Trial of Ancient Elders I had a -18 penalty with it, but it was still the best weapon in my arsenal for me to use. Needless to say, by the time I finished the trial I had no penalties, and so far nothing has been able to survive an encounter with me one, or even three, on one since. All the dudes in Okato's room got blown away in seconds.

I'll get back to you on how I do later in the game.

[Scottg]

Because of the mobs the game throws at you it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to get through the game just using a pole arm, or indeed any weapon, at some point magic is not simply optional.

It's just hard, not impossible.

I've done this with mundane-only (all forms of melee and ranged weapons) except for healing and augmentation/protection. It's interesting, if a little frustrating - not because of the difficulty, but that nagging habitual desire to use Blast Nova. The final boss however, did require the dual-wield specific attack mentioned (..and so did the one in the mummy casket).

Mostly it's down to character improvements and leveling.

I've even gone through the Minotaur section and "stayed awhile" - with just a polearm (or hand-to-hand). (..They aren't as interesting as the blue lions though.) At some point you need to cut-through the crowd though, and that's when you switch to Katana and Wakizashi (..or hand-to-hand).

[galraen]

And avoid the paralysing effects and stunning abilities how exactly? When it comes to things like Carrion worms, then using Pole arms or any other melee weapons (I should have been more specific) don't cut it. Out in the open yes you can dodge about using missile weapons, but in close quarters it's a different ball game. I got cornered by a random demon in Custard Mansion earlier, without magic it would have been game over, as it was I only just survived. Not sure how you overcome six Carrion Wyrms without resorting to magic either, well running away, which is always an option I suppose.

If you're using Rune or other magical forms of protection then it isn't mundane only, so what's the point of not using offensive magic? You can't progress to the final class no matter what that might be without having at least one magic discipline increased to 5, even the combination I'm using. So why not use it?

I will try the final boss without using other than Pole arm. being a stubborn git, but I'm not expecting any more success than others have had.

[galraen]

OT What is it with AIs that have NPCs acting like suicidal maniacs? I mean, so you're a thief, hiding in the bushes waiting to waylay some passing traveller and relieve them of their burdens. Down the road comes a wench jogging along in full plate and packing steel to quote a certain psychopath, do you

A) Run like [expletive deleted]

B] Slink even further into the bushes hoping she doesn't see you

C] Run towards here throwing a kitchen knife at her

I think all thieves in all CRPGs are members of the Tea Party!!

[galraen]

I'd be intrigued to know how you overcome Big Bad Mog and his gang without using magic, they're enough of a handful even using magic.

[Lena]

The thing is, I wanted to use some magic. Rune magic gives some nice buffs (and is buffed with several of these classes), and adept also opens up some celestial magic. What I didn't want to do is completely rely on magic for damage, meaning no offensive damage dealing spells. That is the alternate path I was willing to take if this class combo is not enough to down the last boss.

The final boss can be killed with Shards of Stone (Rune magic, Grymlok sells) relatively easy. As well as the powerful demon in Tomb of Souls.

[galraen]

Shards of stone is almost the only thing that makes Rune magic worth bothering with, it is very potent. Bloody expensive to get enough rune stones to enable you to cast it more than once though, lucky the economic part of the game is broken!

[Scottg]

And avoid the paralysing effects and stunning abilities how exactly?

If you're using Rune or other magical forms of protection then it isn't mundane only, so what's the point of not using offensive magic?

You can't progress to the final class no matter what that might be without having at least one magic discipline increased to 5, even the combination I'm using. So why not use it?

Mundane-only in an *offensive* sense. (..and even then the weapons are still magical.)

The only area that comes to mind where magic is absolutely essential is the pumping platform puzzle in the Nether tower (..to slow down time). Even a dragon can be taken-out reasonably easily with an ice shuriken and not need fire protection.

It was just something different.


Avoiding paralysis effect - stay away. Which usually means constantly moving - most of the time backwards during a fight. You do need to run around the area first to lure the monsters into a "trail" and to make sure you aren't going to run into one as you do the "moon walk".

Usually they "file-up" and you can then strafe that one opponent (or just plug-away with missile attacks).

Another thing - the higher in level you are, generally the lower the duration of the negative effect or the effect just not working. Plus you should have more health. And speed. Etc..

[Scottg]

I'd be intrigued to know how you overcome Big Bad Mog and his gang without using magic, they're enough of a handful even using magic.

Again, pretty easy. At that point I'm VERY high in level.

It's really only bad if you let them all attack you at once, and it's easier if you go after the weaker health characters first.

The worst part is actually loosing your bearing in all those holes in the south east as you are moving about - it gets confusing.