Inspired by the thread below mine, I realised I have never properly started SoZ. I lost intrest soon after beginning, and never returned.
What would you consider an effective from the start party? I have Kaedrin's installed.
I'm thinking of this:
Paladin/Inquisitor of the Silver Flame. (PrC name can be off, it's basicly Paladin on steroids.) Tank.
Alternatively, Paladin 4/ Favoured Soul 16: Divine Might, Divine Grace, very good buffs. Probably a late-bloomer, though.
Ranger/Scout/Swifthunter feat: as the "guide" character which is still decent in combat. Not sure if I should go dualwield, sword and shield, or bow, though.
Druid with Dino companion. Mainly focusing on this one as a caster.
Wizard/Scholar of Candlekeep. Caster, duh.
Thanks in advance!
Simple SoZ Party
Make sure your stealth character (Ranger) is the first character you create.
"Pure" (Champion of the Silver Flame) Paladin (rather than FS) with Kaedrins .. Kaedrins adds-in some useful spells to the Paladin spell-book, and in combination with the Paladin Prestige classes, it actually becomes a useful class again. Yeah!
This character should have EXTREMELY high Strength - think Earth Genasi (..for the attack numbers). Charisma can be added to in game, so a 12 in Charisma should suffice. Forget about Divine Might or Divine Shield.. the duration isn't long enough to be useful (..lots of hit-points on opponents). 16 in Constitution. Strongly consider both Combat Insights (..so a 13 in Intelligence will be required). (..actually considering the level penalty (-1 to BAB) a Human with 18 strength would probably be better..)
The Scout I don't know about.. I'm not sure if it registers as a Rogue or not in SOZ for disarm and open lock, if so then excellent, as long as it's a Bow attacker and almost exclusively a Ranger. Earth Elemental pet.
The Druid I'd reconsider.. Druids never have access to cold iron damage for wild shape or their animal companions. You also have 2 Tanks already. Finally, you can get much better high-level spells from a Cleric via domains, and still better attack modifier spells from the class than from Druid. I'd go Cleric with bow use.. you could even use the animal domain for another pet if you wanted (though not necessary). There are also some other reasons with spells and that wild-shape is screwed in this game do to very limited "maps" and forced shifting back to normal form.
Wizard/Scholar - can't go wrong with that! I might even make it a bit more complex by only going for 3 levels of Scholar and mixing in at least one other prestige class. Hint, Hint: FROST MAGE. (..also the spell penetration feat required by the class is important against Yuan-ti.) In fact, I'd go Frost Mage for 6 levels before Scholar..
"Pure" (Champion of the Silver Flame) Paladin (rather than FS) with Kaedrins .. Kaedrins adds-in some useful spells to the Paladin spell-book, and in combination with the Paladin Prestige classes, it actually becomes a useful class again. Yeah!
This character should have EXTREMELY high Strength - think Earth Genasi (..for the attack numbers). Charisma can be added to in game, so a 12 in Charisma should suffice. Forget about Divine Might or Divine Shield.. the duration isn't long enough to be useful (..lots of hit-points on opponents). 16 in Constitution. Strongly consider both Combat Insights (..so a 13 in Intelligence will be required). (..actually considering the level penalty (-1 to BAB) a Human with 18 strength would probably be better..) The Scout I don't know about.. I'm not sure if it registers as a Rogue or not in SOZ for disarm and open lock, if so then excellent, as long as it's a Bow attacker and almost exclusively a Ranger. Earth Elemental pet.
The Druid I'd reconsider.. Druids never have access to cold iron damage for wild shape or their animal companions. You also have 2 Tanks already. Finally, you can get much better high-level spells from a Cleric via domains, and still better attack modifier spells from the class than from Druid. I'd go Cleric with bow use.. you could even use the animal domain for another pet if you wanted (though not necessary). There are also some other reasons with spells and that wild-shape is screwed in this game do to very limited "maps" and forced shifting back to normal form.
Wizard/Scholar - can't go wrong with that! I might even make it a bit more complex by only going for 3 levels of Scholar and mixing in at least one other prestige class. Hint, Hint: FROST MAGE.
(..also the spell penetration feat required by the class is important against Yuan-ti.) In fact, I'd go Frost Mage for 6 levels before Scholar..
A few notes and thoughts:
I found heavily multiclassed characters not to be as much fun in SoZ as in the other campaigns.
That's mainly because unlike Mask of the Betrayer, you don't start at level 18, so your build has already "matured" enough that you can play it in the way it's supposed to work from the get-go.
Since you barely reach such a level in the SoZ campaing, your fighter/wizard/eldritch spellsword (to use an example) will spent a lot of time fighting or casting spells (depending on the class they started as), not both, like they should do.
Also, unlike the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign, you won't have many compaignions to rely on while your build levels up to the point where it'll shine.
"Dipping"-multiclassing with only a few levels from one class and a lot from another is more useful in SoZ, in my opinion. Or maybe it's just my playstyle.
For example, a rouge2/rangerX or ranger1/rogueX with the 'able learner' feat makes for a great overland scout: Nature (survival), stealth (hide, spot, open locks etc) and people skills (diplomacy, intimidate) - it's all there!
Don't know if Kaedrin's changes that, but I found the fact that your buffs run out after every encounter to be not that much of an issue. You have to keep that in mind when creating your party and characters, though.
Chars that only shine once they're loaded up on buffing spells are harder to use in SoZ then in the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign, for example.
This has it's upsides, tough: Debuffs also get canceled once you enter the overland map. For example, you don't need to cast 'death ward' on your hellfire warlock*; simply keep an eye on their consitution score during a random encounter battle - once they return to the oveland map, their constitution willl be restored to it's original value.
Remeber that you can't always rest where you want to. This favors classes like the warlock or favored soul a bit. Though that shouldn't keep you from playing something else!
I don't use Kaedrin's, but your party should work fine. The dino compagnion is great to have, especially in the beginnig.
Personally, I was surprised to find out how well the "classical party", consiting of a healer (cleric), warrior (fighter), thief (rogue/ranger) and mage (wizard or sorceror) works in SoZ!
Last but not least, think about the races you want to use in your party. Skills checks are really important in SoZ, whether it's to hide from an enemy or to convince them to let you go (which usually nets you more expierence points than battles). ECL-heavy races are more powerful in certain combat situation,s but they'll also always lack behind others in the skills department.
Overall, just play something that you think you'll enjoy.
In SoZ, you can compensate for a lot of things with proper tactics.
*I don't casting 'death ward' to protect from the consitution damage works anymore anyway, does it?
I found heavily multiclassed characters not to be as much fun in SoZ as in the other campaigns.
That's mainly because unlike Mask of the Betrayer, you don't start at level 18, so your build has already "matured" enough that you can play it in the way it's supposed to work from the get-go.
Since you barely reach such a level in the SoZ campaing, your fighter/wizard/eldritch spellsword (to use an example) will spent a lot of time fighting or casting spells (depending on the class they started as), not both, like they should do.
Also, unlike the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign, you won't have many compaignions to rely on while your build levels up to the point where it'll shine.
"Dipping"-multiclassing with only a few levels from one class and a lot from another is more useful in SoZ, in my opinion. Or maybe it's just my playstyle.
For example, a rouge2/rangerX or ranger1/rogueX with the 'able learner' feat makes for a great overland scout: Nature (survival), stealth (hide, spot, open locks etc) and people skills (diplomacy, intimidate) - it's all there!
Don't know if Kaedrin's changes that, but I found the fact that your buffs run out after every encounter to be not that much of an issue. You have to keep that in mind when creating your party and characters, though.
Chars that only shine once they're loaded up on buffing spells are harder to use in SoZ then in the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign, for example.
This has it's upsides, tough: Debuffs also get canceled once you enter the overland map. For example, you don't need to cast 'death ward' on your hellfire warlock*; simply keep an eye on their consitution score during a random encounter battle - once they return to the oveland map, their constitution willl be restored to it's original value.
Remeber that you can't always rest where you want to. This favors classes like the warlock or favored soul a bit. Though that shouldn't keep you from playing something else!
I don't use Kaedrin's, but your party should work fine. The dino compagnion is great to have, especially in the beginnig.
Personally, I was surprised to find out how well the "classical party", consiting of a healer (cleric), warrior (fighter), thief (rogue/ranger) and mage (wizard or sorceror) works in SoZ!
Last but not least, think about the races you want to use in your party. Skills checks are really important in SoZ, whether it's to hide from an enemy or to convince them to let you go (which usually nets you more expierence points than battles). ECL-heavy races are more powerful in certain combat situation,s but they'll also always lack behind others in the skills department.
Overall, just play something that you think you'll enjoy.
In SoZ, you can compensate for a lot of things with proper tactics.
*I don't casting 'death ward' to protect from the consitution damage works anymore anyway, does it?
Scout gets Trap Detection, just like a Rogue. I don't see why it wouldn't register as one, though. The nice thing is that it stacks Sneak Attack with Ranger levels, if you take the Swifthunter feat.
Why your emphasis on an archer instead of meleecombatant for this one?
I can see your other points, though. Only the Combat Insight feats don't ring a bell.
I'll go with a caster Cleric then, with Zen Archery.
Why your emphasis on an archer instead of meleecombatant for this one?
I can see your other points, though. Only the Combat Insight feats don't ring a bell.
I'll go with a caster Cleric then, with Zen Archery.
GawainBS wrote:Scout gets Trap Detection, just like a Rogue. I don't see why it wouldn't register as one, though.
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Disable_Device
"Special: Onlyroguescan disable traps with DCs of 20 and above. 5 or more ranks inset trapgive a 2 synergy bonus on checks for this skill."
GawainBS wrote: Why your emphasis on an archer instead of meleecombatant for this one?
I can see your other points, though. Only the Combat Insight feats don't ring a bell.
I'll go with a caster Cleric then, with Zen Archery.
With enchantments, Archery is as good as dual-wield in this game. ..see the Notes section on my Assassin build:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?5645
I'd also add that adamantium +2 damage stacks with enchantment damage with Kaedrins. And yes, adamantium arrows are available in SOZ in bulk in-game (..though I think Kaedrins coin/store Genie has them as well).
Additionally, provided you have a distracting "tank" or two, it allows you to stay away from the veritable deluge of opponents that have high attack numbers and outrageous damage.
Yup, Cleric with Zen Archery is *good*. Be sure to look though the various Domains and their spells - look to high damage radius spells. I particularly like Horrid Wilting, though Weird also works pretty well. (..and surprisingly mental immunity from opponents is rare, excepting rare undead and elementals.)
Sorry, Combat *Expertise* (both) are very nice to keep your "tank" from getting hit. Again, the primary objective of the tank isn't offensive, rather it's defensive for the rest of your party - to act as a distraction. Only on occasion will you want the ability to turn it off to get in a few hits. (..combat insight is an epic feat - so it doesn't really apply.)
Scottg wrote:http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Disable_Device
"Special: Onlyroguescan disable traps with DCs of 20 and above. 5 or more ranks inset trapgive a 2 synergy bonus on checks for this skill."
Yes, that's from the wiki. Insofar does it take Kaedrin's into account?
According to the NWN2Builder, Scouts get Trapfinding.
Combat Expertise makes sense.
For the Cleric, should I focus on her casting, or on the archery? Or take Elf Domain and Rapid Shot, and focus on casting for the rest?
GawainBS wrote:Yes, that's from the wiki. Insofar does it take Kaedrin's into account?
According to the NWN2Builder, Scouts get Trapfinding.
Combat Expertise makes sense.
For the Cleric, should I focus on her casting, or on the archery? Or take Elf Domain and Rapid Shot, and focus on casting for the rest?
Then I guess Scouts shouldn't have a problem.
Cleric:
This is probably how I'd do it (..with some added role-playing interest).
A summoner - which can be very good in this game (particularly with ranged bow attacks):
Human 8, 14, 12, 10, 18, 12 (max Wisdom on level-up)
Deity: Kossuth
Domains: Fire and Animal
Animal Companion: Fire Elemental
Point Blank Shot and Spell casting Prodigy
Ashbound
Lvl 4 Fighter (access to bows); Rapid Shot
Exalted Companion
Extended Spell
Augment Elemental
Zen Archery
..up to you, probably Empower though..
Fire domain has Fireball, Firestorm (7th and 8th levels), and Incendiary Cloud.. PLUS it has Elemental Swarm. (..and even Wall of Fire isn't bad in this game).
All of Kaedrins Elemental companions are useful. Exalted Companion makes it that much more so.
Ashbound makes even low-level summons useful, and of course keeps on improving them.
Augment Elemental for the Hit-points at a point where you can summon them.
Archery will be good enough for this character for the most part with 14 in Dexterity. Not good, but not bad either, and once you get extended spell you can always buff for more. Zen Archery is loaded late - because it's not really needed to have attacks at very high levels except for the last battle.
As a contrast - I'd make my mage Mr. Frosty.
The Duo of "Fire and Ice"!
GawainBS wrote:
How would you go about making the Wizard?
Strongheart Halfling 6, 18, 14, 18, 8, 8 (max Intelligence on level-up)
Deity: Auril
Spellcasting Prodigy, Extend Spell
Spell Penetration
Empower Spell
Lvl 6 -11 Ice Mage
Invisible Needle
Skill Focus Concentration
Lvl 12 Wizard; Skill Focus Spellcraft
Lvl 13+ ASoCK
Greater Spell Penetration
..up to you.
Invisible Needle is selected one level sooner that you can make use of it. There are several reasons why we pick this one vs. Winter's Blast. For one thing the Frost Mage's Piercing Cold doesn't work with Winter's Blast. Another major reason is that Invisible Needle is a relatively long range attack whereas Winter's Blast is only 15 feet. (..it scales in distance relative to the spell leveraging it - up to 9 x 5 feet or 45 foot range.) Additionally, no opponent has a resistance to this damage-type. Finally, the damage-type isn't really counter to cold damage, unlike the others (Fire, Acid, Electricity, Sound).
..and of course the Dexterity bonus helps out to counter the low BAB, and it is a ranged touch attack made at a moderate character level of 7+.
GawainBS wrote:Why Extend Spell for the Wizard? I can't imagine this one relying on many buffs.
Oh, for the Scout/Ranger: I suppose Yuan-ti isn't worth it?
Buffs will be a big part of this character - though not for him (or herself). Haste will be the most important for extended spell (..though you won't have access to that until a bit later). And actually the added speed of Haste will even be useful for this character on occasion.
Then there are certain spells - particularly Grease (..which is possibly my favorite spell in the game). Summons. Etc..
Considering the 3 levels of medium BAB required for the Ranger/Scout, and the relative lack of feats - Human. (..it shouldn't need spell resistance - and that can be provided from your cleric, and it won't need blind fight or AC improvements.)
I looked over a Ranger Scout build..
..I know, I just couldn't help myself.
Human 12, 17, 13, 12, 14, 8 (max Dexterity on level-up).
Diety: Akadia
Point Blank Shot and Dodge
Mobility
Animal Companion: Air
Exalted Companion
Lvl 7-9 Scout
Swift Hunter
Lvl 10 Shadow Dancer
Lvl 11+ Ranger
Natural Bond
Improved Critical Longbow
up to you..
Favored Enemies:
Level 5: Monstrous Humanoids
Level 19: Outsiders (..or level 14 if you don't think you'll get to level 19 or higher).
Level 1 and 14 - up to you, and honestly I'm not sure what I'd choose, probably Beasts for my starter. (..the typical Undead isn't terribly useful in this game, but it's not bad either.. there are a number of Giants and Elementals.. maybe those? Humans wouldn't be a bad choice either.)
Ranger is front loaded (instead of Scout) for a few reasons: Animal Companion and Exalted Animal Companion Feat; Thieving skills (unlock and disarm) aren't really needed early; Sneak attack is largely incidental for this game, plus no HiPS until later; finally the class ends on a character level (9)where selecting the Swift Hunter feat is appropriate.
The Shadow Dancer class adds-in that added leverage for Sneak Attacks.
..I know, I just couldn't help myself.
Human 12, 17, 13, 12, 14, 8 (max Dexterity on level-up).
Diety: Akadia
Point Blank Shot and Dodge
Mobility
Animal Companion: Air
Exalted Companion
Lvl 7-9 Scout
Swift Hunter
Lvl 10 Shadow Dancer
Lvl 11+ Ranger
Natural Bond
Improved Critical Longbow
up to you..
Favored Enemies:
Level 5: Monstrous Humanoids
Level 19: Outsiders (..or level 14 if you don't think you'll get to level 19 or higher).
Level 1 and 14 - up to you, and honestly I'm not sure what I'd choose, probably Beasts for my starter.
(..the typical Undead isn't terribly useful in this game, but it's not bad either.. there are a number of Giants and Elementals.. maybe those? Humans wouldn't be a bad choice either.)Ranger is front loaded (instead of Scout) for a few reasons: Animal Companion and Exalted Animal Companion Feat; Thieving skills (unlock and disarm) aren't really needed early; Sneak attack is largely incidental for this game, plus no HiPS until later; finally the class ends on a character level (9)where selecting the Swift Hunter feat is appropriate.
The Shadow Dancer class adds-in that added leverage for Sneak Attacks.
I'd start with a lvl of Scout, for the multiplied skillpoints at lvl 1. That's an advantage that can't be overlooked, and given that you start at lvl 4, Ranger can be added after lvl 1. I'd also start with 16 DEX and 14 CON, or 14 INT.
Are Sneak Attacks really worth it to go for HiPS via the sucky Shadowdancer? I cringe at Dodge & Mobility as feats.
Also, do Rangers suffers from the "half Druid level" Animal Companion? If so, not worth it. If not, is the Dino much worse than the Elementals?
Are Sneak Attacks really worth it to go for HiPS via the sucky Shadowdancer? I cringe at Dodge & Mobility as feats.
Also, do Rangers suffers from the "half Druid level" Animal Companion? If so, not worth it. If not, is the Dino much worse than the Elementals?
GawainBS wrote:I'd start with a lvl of Scout, for the multiplied skillpoints at lvl 1. That's an advantage that can't be overlooked, and given that you start at lvl 4, Ranger can be added after lvl 1. I'd also start with 16 DEX and 14 CON, or 14 INT.
Are Sneak Attacks really worth it to go for HiPS via the sucky Shadowdancer? I cringe at Dodge & Mobility as feats.
Also, do Rangers suffers from the "half Druid level" Animal Companion? If so, not worth it. If not, is the Dino much worse than the Elementals?
Yup, that's better. (..though it does delay attack numbers some over the course of the build.)
Rangers have a -3 to animal companions.. They are still worth it for what they do though - which is provide a distraction. It's not intended to be a powerhouse. The Dino Companion is marginally better. However..
HiPS has some uses in the game (and it not necessarily about sneak attack). But is it worth it? Depends on how you play. For that matter I really don't think that the Scout class is worth it. 3d6 of Sneak Attack damage by level 9 that will be exceedingly infrequent? 5d6 by level 17 or 18. One level of Rogue will give you 1d6, give you HiPS for free before the final sequence (assuming you do some grinding). It also makes Natural Bond (along with the Rouge level) at as if the net value is only -1 level. Additionally the Rogue level provides class skill to Open Lock (which the Scout doesn't have). Faster access to Favored Enemy bonuses. Faster access to Improved Rapid Shot. Faster access to Evasion. And basically a "simpler" build. Finally, it also allows for a Strongheart Halfling with it's Dexterity bonus.
The oddity is - I'm not even going to recommend that.
Instead I'm going to recommend a pure Ranger, Air Genasi. Focusing on its Animal Companion and Favored Enemies (..also utilizing Foe Hunter).
..and placing the 1st level of Rogue on the Wizard.
-ALSO I'm going to recommend doing some grinding in Chult (later in the game) to get to level 22 (level 21 with racial penalty). That will compensate for the missing level on Wizard class, and it will give you access to Bane of Enemies for your Ranger and also One Shot.
That will make your Wizard the real utility character in the game.. which frankly suits a multi-class character. It will alter the sequence of the feats however to squeeze-in able learner. (Extended Spell gets pushed to level 15 and Greater Spell Penetration 18., no Wizard level at 12 - instead Frostmage stops at 12.)
That means your Paladin (though with CoSF), Ranger, and Cleric will essentially be "pure classes". Your Wizard is the "Oddjob", mostly for utility and buffing - though the "A bomb" for the really big fights when required.
Air Genasi 8, 20, 14, 13, 6 (Dexterity at all levels except 12. At level 12 Wisdom)
Deity: Akadia
Animal Companion: Air Elemental
Point Blank Shot
Foe Hunter
Exalted Companion
Natural Bond
Improved Critical Longbow
Improved Favored Enemy: Monstrous Humanoids
Improved Favored Enemy: Outsiders
Bane of Enemies
Favored Enemies: Humans, Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Outsiders, Undead. (in that order)
You could also do something similar as a Strongheart Halfling (short bow), which would decrease the grinding in Chult for that added level. But I rather like the role-playing of Air Genasi with Air elemental and Akadia deity.. Besides, hunting Mega Raptors in Chult *really* sounds like this character's forte. (..and it would push your Wizard's ASoCK levels to 10 giving you Quicken for free.)
Not really intrested in giving a Rogue level to the Wizard, from an RP point of view. Determined to stick it on the Ranger. (Or a couple of lvls of Scout.) It feels more natural this way. (Which is a horrible way to decide, mechnanically, but SoZ seems like one of those games where you have to inject your own RP'ing to get things intresting.)
Ok, I forgot that Swifthunter in Kaedrin's doesn't allow you to Skirmish/Sneak Attack Crit-immunes. (It does in PnP and Skirmish (the actual ability instead of Sneak Attack) is easier to apply, so Swifthunter builds are quite good there.) I'll stick to a Ranger with a couple of Rogue levels then and Able Learner.
Ok, I forgot that Swifthunter in Kaedrin's doesn't allow you to Skirmish/Sneak Attack Crit-immunes. (It does in PnP and Skirmish (the actual ability instead of Sneak Attack) is easier to apply, so Swifthunter builds are quite good there.) I'll stick to a Ranger with a couple of Rogue levels then and Able Learner.
GawainBS wrote:Not really intrested in giving a Rogue level to the Wizard, from an RP point of view. Determined to stick it on the Ranger. (Or a couple of lvls of Scout.) It feels more natural this way. (Which is a horrible way to decide, mechnanically, but SoZ seems like one of those games where you have to inject your own RP'ing to get things intresting.)
Ok, I forgot that Swifthunter in Kaedrin's doesn't allow you to Skirmish/Sneak Attack Crit-immunes. (It does in PnP and Skirmish (the actual ability instead of Sneak Attack) is easier to apply, so Swifthunter builds are quite good there.) I'll stick to a Ranger with a couple of Rogue levels then and Able Learner.
That's cool.
The only time you'll get sneak attacks generally with that character is from attacks of opportunity. Even then you'll need to be within pretty short range.. (something like 15 feet I believe). The oddity of it is that attacks of opportunity are not considered sneak attacks - and yet I distinctly remember getting sneak attacks that way (..perhaps as some sort of quasi-flanking effect).
Flanking (real behind the back attacks) within that range is rare and dangerous (and also tedious to do). An effect that might cause opponents to be flat-footed is also something that would cause difficulty with your tanks UNLESS they have freedom of movement (or something else like it). The "Sleeps" would be the best bet for at least a few sneak attacks, obviously Hiss of Sleep being the best of the group.
Caution: Swift Hunter doesn't scale right on the builder site - there they show the twice-as-good Rogue sneak attack damage. (..it through me for a "loop" for a bit when I was futzing with the build there.)
I'm ditching Sneak Attacks as a reliable means of damage: if I get any, great, if I don't, no problem. The Sneak Attack range should be 30 ft, in theory.
A bit disappointed that Swifthunter doesn't really work in NWN2. (Getting an extra 7d6 12x a round against virtually all target types, at range, is quite good.)
A bit disappointed that Swifthunter doesn't really work in NWN2.
(Getting an extra 7d6 12x a round against virtually all target types, at range, is quite good.)