Hey all.
Having played various D&D titles over the years, i have yet one class to investigate, the Warlock. I sense that he can be built in many different ways, and if going Epic there are some interesting things about beeing pure classed.
But i have only the OC with SoZ installed, so max level for me should be 19-21 ish. I can make the Hellfire PRC class, but is it worth it ?
What about a bit of multiclassing ? I was particular curious about the lvl 1 Shadow dancer add-in for the HiPS feat, is it worth it ? Scottg has a Damned Soul build i read and fell in love with instantly on NWN Builder site, and makes heavy use of HiS/MS skills + Warlock invisibility spells.
I tried some different things so far: lvl 1 Rouge with high Dex/Cha, for a skill-master Warlock that utilize Weapon Finesse later on with his Hideous Blow to do some serious damage in meele, and Able learner Feat for Fredom in Skill selection.
I also tried to lvl 12 a more Pure Caster Build with Spell Penetration, GSP, and Combat Casting, taking later Creation Feats ( Arms & Armor + Wondrous Items ) but i seem to have too few skill points to make him effective.
Sometimes i just fiddle with the building, but i would really like some insights from the experts on how to make an effective Warlock through the OC.
Warlock (OC) help needed...
Warlock (OC) help needed...
Oh, When all else fail, put the Dwarf up front!
Mulligan wrote:Hey all.
Having played various D&D titles over the years, i have yet one class to investigate, the Warlock. I sense that he can be built in many different ways, and if going Epic there are some interesting things about beeing pure classed.
But i have only the OC with SoZ installed, so max level for me should be 19-21 ish. I can make the Hellfire PRC class, but is it worth it ?
What about a bit of multiclassing ? I was particular curious about the lvl 1 Shadow dancer add-in for the HiPS feat, is it worth it ? Scottg has a Damned Soul build i read and fell in love with instantly on NWN Builder site, and makes heavy use of HiS/MS skills + Warlock invisibility spells.
I tried some different things so far: lvl 1 Rouge with high Dex/Cha, for a skill-master Warlock that utilize Weapon Finesse later on with his Hideous Blow to do some serious damage in meele, and Able learner Feat for Fredom in Skill selection.
I also tried to lvl 12 a more Pure Caster Build with Spell Penetration, GSP, and Combat Casting, taking later Creation Feats ( Arms & Armor + Wondrous Items ) but i seem to have too few skill points to make him effective.
Sometimes i just fiddle with the building, but i would really like some insights from the experts on how to make an effective Warlock through the OC.
There are "pickup class" 'locks, hybrids, and pure Warlocks.
The "pickup class" versions generally use just one level for The Dark One's Own Luck.. OR sometimes just for See the Unseen (or occasionally two levels for both). Blackguard's are the best type of character/class combo for both Invocations.
Hybrids are pretty rare, (like my "Damned Soul" build). For them it's about more than the "juiciest" of invocations - specifically extending more levels of the Warlcok class to achieve specific benefits for the build overall.
Oddly, pure Warlocks are at once very "particular", and yet not terribly difficult to build. In the context of a non-epic build (as it is for the OC), it's all about class level vs. the campaign.
1. No racial penalty. Even more than a Rogue (though less than Wizard/Sorcerer), class level for access to increasing Eldritch Blast attack is a priority. You want that Eldritch Blast increasing in power as quickly as possible, and want faster access to increasing Eldritch "chains" + no delays in BAB. Delaying just one level often puts your character behind the "curve" as far as opponents are concerned (..particularly their total hit points, but also their saves vs. your "disabling" essences).
2. No non-Warlock classes. NONE. Not even a level of Rogue. See #1.
3. Be exceedingly careful with Invocation selection. ALWAYS look at the Invocation's/Essence's/Blast Shape's benefits relative to your build's needs - specifically when looking at opponents (and your character's capability).
4. In context with #3 - when planning your Invocation selections, specifically consider swapping-out invocations at latter levels (odd class levels). The best example I can give here is:
.........................at first level select Eldritch Spear. You can often stand so far back from any opponent (including the one your are specifically targeting) that you can kill that one opponent before they can reach you. (..of course this also depends on your attack numbers and Eldritch Blast dice relative to the opponents hit dice.) In practice it's usually more effective than the excellent "slow" effect of Draining Blast.
.........................at 2nd level select Leaps and Bounds. The added attack modifier of +2 makes a difference at low levels.
..........................at 4th level select Draining Blast.
..........................at 6th level select Eldritch Chain.
..NOW and 7th level remove Eldritch Spear and select The Dark One's Own Luck. Eldritch Chain in combination with Draining Blast is simply more effective than Eldritch Spear. You don't need Eldritch Spear any longer so you can take a more defensive Invocation. Note: if you can do this at level 6 then do so, it's just that I think I remember with NON-Kaedrins that you couldn't.
The same is true for Leaps and Bounds once you have enough Dexterity modifier equipment to offest it's +4 to Dexterity.
5. Build your attributes on Charisma, NOT Dexterity. Look to the calculations on Ranged Touch Attacks.. Here it's all about BAB. As your BAB get's higher with class level, your attack numbers become less important overall. This is because your opponent's AC isn't scaling in a manner with respect to Ranged Touch Attacks when compared to your BAB. The one exception to this is scoring a "critical". The higher your attack numbers the better your chances, but generally it's not something you want to build "around", most notably because the Improved Critical feat isn't even available until character level 12. Start Dexterity with a 16 (or 18 depending on race), and leave it there (and of course improve it with modifiers like Leaps and Bounds). Charisma on the other hand directly effects your "disabling" essences.
6. Stongheart Halfling is the race of choice. It has no level penalty, Dexterity bonus (with a resulting attack and AC bonus), an AC bonus (size), and an extra feat. It "gives-up" Strength, but strength isn't needed. If you need a pack mule or two then use your companions. I tend to go with Charisma 16 and Dexterity at 17, with first attribute point in Dexterity to 18, and the rest in Charisma. (..i.e 6/17/14/14/10/16, or 8/17/14/14/8/16 - and usually the later for the added Strength vs. +1 in Will saves.)
7. Feats: Assuming NON-Kaedrins and a Strongheart Halfling (in order): Spellcasting Prodigy, Fey Heritage, Combat Expertise, Fey Power, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Critical Ranged Touch Attack, Shield Proficiency, Fey Skin.
Spellcasting Prodigy, Fey Power and Fey Heritage are there for a cumulative +2 to an essences's DC. Caution: I'm not sure that Fey Power transfers to "enchantment" essences, I've always thought it did, but I don't remember testing it. (..and with Kaedrins installed a current test wouldn't be helpful.) If it doesn't then you can drop the Fey feats if you want and put in others.. Blind Fight would be nice (..though not a requirement with only Slyphs and Shadows giving you problems and being overall rare in the game).
The "combat expertise/improved combat expertise" is an exploit of NON-Kaedrins that doesn't effect ranged touch attacks (even though the character page shows a reduction in attack numbers).
Perhaps the best advice I can give however, is that a Warlock is primarily a "support" class. Unless using Eldritch Spear, generally do NOT attack enemies until after a meat-shield has done so and "drawn threat". Once that has occurred - fire away. At that point your combination of distributed damage and disabling essence effects make your companion's attacks that much more effective.
Note: Hellfire Warlocks are very good for the OC as long as you are prepared to use substantial healing potions, OR have access to Deathward. Constitution modifiers also help a great deal, and regeneration is nice as well.
Zhjaeve is introduced around character level 14, but Elanee has Deathward a bit sooner (character level 9).
Kaedrin's considers "Deathward" an exploit and altered it to where hellfire blast/shield won't even work.
For an OC-only, I'd personally build it as a Hellfire Warlock, even with the limitation that Kaedrin's imposes.
Zhjaeve is introduced around character level 14, but Elanee has Deathward a bit sooner (character level 9).
Kaedrin's considers "Deathward" an exploit and altered it to where hellfire blast/shield won't even work.
For an OC-only, I'd personally build it as a Hellfire Warlock, even with the limitation that Kaedrin's imposes.
Scottg wrote:Note: Hellfire Warlocks are very good for the OC as long as you are prepared to use substantial healing potions, OR have access to Deathward. Constitution modifiers also help a great deal, and regeneration is nice as well.
Zhjaeve is introduced around character level 14, but Elanee has Deathward a bit sooner (character level 9).
Kaedrin's considers "Deathward" an exploit and altered it to where hellfire blast/shield won't even work.
For an OC-only, I'd personally build it as a Hellfire Warlock, even with the limitation that Kaedrin's imposes.
Thanx Scottg !
This is really helpful insights, but i of course have just a few more questions:
1: Are you absolutely certain that Spellcasting Prodigy helps on a Warlock ? as there is no save on the main blasts etc and the feat description doesnt even mention Warlock at all.
2: The Deathward exploit, is it the same for Frenzied Berzerker ? (rem. i L.O.V.E. your Damned Soul build ) and isnt there an inventory item or such that give immunity to Death effects i.e Deatward ?
3: If i am not mistaken, then Hellfire only is 3 levels in total, and each lvl counts as increase in Warlock abilities, Including ! increase on d6 damage to the base blast ? so on those 3 levels one would still get +2d6 in Eldritch damage?
4: The Combat Exp i didnt know about, are we sure latest patch didnt fix this ? and is targets AC on ranged touch attacks the same as for Meele touch attacks ? if im not wrong i think it was armor or some such that didnt count in ?
5: Isnt Spell Penetration a must have for Warlocks ? As resistance is the only thing that can with stand a basic blast ?
6: So far i have in all my tests gone the "Chain" way on blast shapes, but i wonder about the Creational Warlock. It just seems so easy to have a Warlock Creator. The Imbue Item feat, Does it work as intended ? No other party member needs creation feats ? If so the Companions can be built even more effectiven, true ? (i had Elenee take Dino Companion + Elephan hide.."grin " she was rock solid after that.
7: i am now playing a OC version of your Damned Soul. It is perhaps the most fun character i have played ever. But ! i am pretty certain the "see the unseen" spell doesnt work as intended or is bugged. Whe i go with the City Watch, and have all those pesky Rouge fights, every single one of the rouges comes out of the doors in hiding, walks into my meele fight and sneak attacks me, even if i am not flanked. I tested this extensively ( i hope) and i was sure that See Unseen should disable their Hiding. I think they are scripted to be hided until their first attack, then i guess the rest is positioning. There are quite many of them. If See unseen doesnt help vs the rouges...where does it help at all in the OC ? -- ?
I am not sure i do it the best way on your DAmned Soul..as i am only in OC. But i made almost a carbon copy of him : Fighter4 / Warlock 7 /Frenzied Berz 6 / Hellfire 3. No crafting skills yet but i wonder if OC would be a good place to have a Crafting Warlock. Skills i think many are not so needed in the OC so i focus on Tumble , Intimidate, Hide & Move, UMD and the needed prereqs. Do you think ( hoping secretly ) you could do a quick remark on how a Damned Soul should be for OC only ? I Have thought of a similar Character, but with BLackguards level instead, and going the Charisma way.
lastly i will say a special tnx to Scottg for insights on a Turn Outsider Cleric Build. I have Made my Doomguide of Kelemvor a Turn master, and up to lvl 14 he has turned, and destroyd almost all undead + outsiders. it actually made me laugh on how easy so many battles beccame, even on hard difficulty
Oh, When all else fail, put the Dwarf up front!
1. I'll go back and try it again, BUT again - I've got Kaedrins, so I don't know if there is a difference. I don't remember Kaedrins altering anything to do with Spellcasting Prodigy though. I've also never tested it on Invocations like Charm, just essences.
2. Yes, Deathward and FB Frenzy (4th level) are the same. I don't believe equipment works.. (rather like Freedom of Movement on an item doesn't work to remove penalties associated with spells like Stone Body, Iron Body, or Tortoise Shell, yet the spell Freedom of Movement does if cast before those other spells.)
3. Yes, you still get the normal scaling in Eldritch blast dice and level for "chains" along with Invocations. It's class feats that get delayed (along with Epic bonus feats). Imbue Item would be a good example.
4. As far as I know it wasn't fixed.. but again, I've got Kaedrins installed. A touch attack calculation is the same for ranged or melee with one difference for the attacker - Dexterity is your modifier for ranged, and Strength is your modifier for melee.
5. Spell Penetration is bugged along with the Warlock class with respect to the Spell Resistance calculation. You'll only get half your class level in the calculation along with only 1 point per Spell Penetration feat. This makes your role and your opponent's "level" hugely dependent on the outcome. http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_resistance
For the most part people say it's a waste.. but just a single point might well lead to the difference between having it work or not. I will say that when I played Warlocks "pre-Kaedrins" on the OC and SOZ that it did *seem* to make a difference, if not a great one.
The "end-run" around this is with Vitriolic Blast, or at Epic levels with 10d6 of Eldritch Blast (not Hellfire) and NO essences.
6. Imbue Item is just there as a "stop-gap" measure for crafting (meaning you don't need access to the *SPELL*). I *think* it was patched. And no, you still need the respective crafting feats. IMO - just have Zhajeve do it (level 15 and 18 give her the two crafting feats: Magical Arms and Armor and then Wondrous Item). Actually I usually hit Sand with Magical Arms and Armor as well - for faster access to crafting Immunity to Criticals into my armor along with weapon enchantments.
7. Having just looked at my Notes Description on the build, My Bad. It's an older build of mine at it should be altered/updated some. See the Unseen works with Invisibility. Either Listen or Spot is required to see a hidden opponent (..or sniff/Survival for Grey Orcs). Listen really doesn't work for opponents that aren't moving, BUT Listen can ALSO work to detect Invisible opponents . Spot on the other hand can't detect Invisible opponents, BUT does protect against Feints (..though I don't recall ever being "feinted" in any campaign). Yup, those few Rogues will be a problem - have a character "summon" for bait. Invisible opponents do occur (goblin casters in Arhvan come to mind, as do Slyphs), and like Blindsight - it does seem to help with attacking concealed opponents (Shadows).
Honestly with what I know now (how Invisibility really works), I'd hose almost all the points in Hide and shift them to Spot and Diplomacy. Even Move Silently doesn't need to be that high.
Yeah that Turn Undead + Outsider is very powerful in the OC.
2. Yes, Deathward and FB Frenzy (4th level) are the same. I don't believe equipment works.. (rather like Freedom of Movement on an item doesn't work to remove penalties associated with spells like Stone Body, Iron Body, or Tortoise Shell, yet the spell Freedom of Movement does if cast before those other spells.)
3. Yes, you still get the normal scaling in Eldritch blast dice and level for "chains" along with Invocations. It's class feats that get delayed (along with Epic bonus feats). Imbue Item would be a good example.
4. As far as I know it wasn't fixed.. but again, I've got Kaedrins installed. A touch attack calculation is the same for ranged or melee with one difference for the attacker - Dexterity is your modifier for ranged, and Strength is your modifier for melee.
5. Spell Penetration is bugged along with the Warlock class with respect to the Spell Resistance calculation. You'll only get half your class level in the calculation along with only 1 point per Spell Penetration feat. This makes your role and your opponent's "level" hugely dependent on the outcome. http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_resistance
For the most part people say it's a waste.. but just a single point might well lead to the difference between having it work or not. I will say that when I played Warlocks "pre-Kaedrins" on the OC and SOZ that it did *seem* to make a difference, if not a great one.
The "end-run" around this is with Vitriolic Blast, or at Epic levels with 10d6 of Eldritch Blast (not Hellfire) and NO essences.
6. Imbue Item is just there as a "stop-gap" measure for crafting (meaning you don't need access to the *SPELL*). I *think* it was patched. And no, you still need the respective crafting feats. IMO - just have Zhajeve do it (level 15 and 18 give her the two crafting feats: Magical Arms and Armor and then Wondrous Item). Actually I usually hit Sand with Magical Arms and Armor as well - for faster access to crafting Immunity to Criticals into my armor along with weapon enchantments.
7. Having just looked at my Notes Description on the build, My Bad. It's an older build of mine at it should be altered/updated some. See the Unseen works with Invisibility. Either Listen or Spot is required to see a hidden opponent (..or sniff/Survival for Grey Orcs). Listen really doesn't work for opponents that aren't moving, BUT Listen can ALSO work to detect Invisible opponents . Spot on the other hand can't detect Invisible opponents, BUT does protect against Feints (..though I don't recall ever being "feinted" in any campaign). Yup, those few Rogues will be a problem - have a character "summon" for bait. Invisible opponents do occur (goblin casters in Arhvan come to mind, as do Slyphs), and like Blindsight - it does seem to help with attacking concealed opponents (Shadows).
Honestly with what I know now (how Invisibility really works), I'd hose almost all the points in Hide and shift them to Spot and Diplomacy. Even Move Silently doesn't need to be that high.
Yeah that Turn Undead + Outsider is very powerful in the OC.
Caution: Kaedrins tested, not NON-Kaedrins:
I tested 3 characters all virtually identical, the differences were with Spellcasting Prodigy and Fey Power (..all tested to class level 4) - stronheart halflings as mentioned/built above.
1. "vanilla" with only 16 in Charisma: Draining Blast DC = 15
2. Spellcasting Prodigy : Draining Blast DC = 16
3. Spellcasting Prodigy + Fey Heritage & Fey Power: Draining Blast DC = 18
Obviously both Spellcasting Prodigy and Fey Power work in Kaedrins, and for some reason Fey Power seems to give +2 to DC instead of +1. EDIT: Mystery solved a few posts below (#9).
I tested 3 characters all virtually identical, the differences were with Spellcasting Prodigy and Fey Power (..all tested to class level 4) - stronheart halflings as mentioned/built above.
1. "vanilla" with only 16 in Charisma: Draining Blast DC = 15
2. Spellcasting Prodigy : Draining Blast DC = 16
3. Spellcasting Prodigy + Fey Heritage & Fey Power: Draining Blast DC = 18
Obviously both Spellcasting Prodigy and Fey Power work in Kaedrins, and for some reason Fey Power seems to give +2 to DC instead of +1. EDIT: Mystery solved a few posts below (#9).
@Scottg, that's interesting and a curiosity about the Fey Power occured to me. Maybe Fey Power is giving +1 per Fey feat?
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Claudius wrote:@Scottg, that's interesting and a curiosity about the Fey Power occured to me. Maybe Fey Power is giving +1 per Fey feat?
I'll try testing it out.. It would be fantastic if that were the case.
IMO it has something to do with the "translation" from least to lesser Invocations, where the change in ESL is usually 2. I.E. Draining Blast has an ESL of 2, whereas most of the lesser invocation have an ESL of 4. So it's not basing it on a gain of 1 ESL, but rather an average gain of least to lesser Invocation. Just a guess though.
Tested..
I've absolutely NO idea what's going on..
At level 6 no Fey Feat: Draining Blast = 18
At level 6 I selected a Fey Feat: Draining Blast = 19
..so it at first *looks* like there is a multiplier going on with the Fey Feats, but then:
At level 8: Draining Blast =20
(..note I did add 1 point of Charisma here, but the net was only 17, not the even number (18) required to get the added point to DC.)
WTF?
At level 9 no Fey Feat: Draining Blast = 20
At level 9 I selected a Fey Feat: Draining Blast = 20
So I don't know what's going on..
OK.. NOW I know what's happening (with Kaedrins at least):
At every odd Warlock level an essence's DC improves by 1. (..3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th - just like the Eldritch Blast Dice.) Presumably this is ANY essence that has a DC check, but I only tested Draining Blast.
Fey Power with Kaedrins adds +1 to DC.
Fey Power with Kaedrins ALSO adds 1 effective Warlock level which basically moves +1 DC and +1d6 Eldritch Blast one level sooner - to an even level (..like Warlock level 4 instead of 5). Note: I KNOW this doesn't happen with NON-Kaedrins.
This means that at Warlock level 4 using Draining Blast I was getting my +1 to DC from Fey Power and ALSO effectively moving up to Warlock class level 5 and getting my every odd level DC bonus.
..Anyway,
I had NO idea that DC improved liked that for essences. That's AWESOME. (..and a hell of a lot better than Sorcerer/Wizard spell DC checks as a result.)
It would be interesting if NON-Kaedrins displayed the same behavior.
At every odd Warlock level an essence's DC improves by 1. (..3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th - just like the Eldritch Blast Dice.) Presumably this is ANY essence that has a DC check, but I only tested Draining Blast.
Fey Power with Kaedrins adds +1 to DC.
Fey Power with Kaedrins ALSO adds 1 effective Warlock level which basically moves +1 DC and +1d6 Eldritch Blast one level sooner - to an even level (..like Warlock level 4 instead of 5). Note: I KNOW this doesn't happen with NON-Kaedrins.
This means that at Warlock level 4 using Draining Blast I was getting my +1 to DC from Fey Power and ALSO effectively moving up to Warlock class level 5 and getting my every odd level DC bonus.
..Anyway,
I had NO idea that DC improved liked that for essences. That's AWESOME. (..and a hell of a lot better than Sorcerer/Wizard spell DC checks as a result.)
It would be interesting if NON-Kaedrins displayed the same behavior.