yet more weapon/class testing fights

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:15 pm

Newest Battles

Kensai
VS
Bezerker Cleric

Human Kensai
STATISTICS:
4 + in flail 3+ in katana 3+ in 2h
(note that all proficiencies are by game standards. ie Not shadowkeeper)
Lvl 19/156 hp
Belt 21 str
Gaxx
Ring prot +2
Boots speed
clck sewers
Ring Earth Control
Wielding:
Flail of Ages in offhand
Celestial Fury in main hand
18 const/dexterity
Ac -1

Human Bararian/cleric dual
STATISTICS:
5+ in hammer, 2+ in katana 3+ in 2h 1+in single, 1+ in Sword/Shield style
Lvls 12 barbarian/19 cleric / 159hp
Red Dragon Scale
Gauntlets Weapon skill
Bld helm
Prot +1 necklace
Ring Earth Conrol
clck sewers
Gaxx
Speed boots
18 const/ dex
Ac-12

Spells cast on Bezerker before battle: Armor of faith, Barkskin and Barbarian special "Enrage" activated
Kensai using Kai ability.
Times recorded in seconds and 1/10th of seconds
Game paused, characters made to attack one another, game unpaused, start recording time
Battle 1

1) 23.56 B/C died
2) 18.49 B/C died
3) 22.34 B/C died
4) 17.25 B/C died
5) 30.44 B/C died

Obviously the FOA is a deciding factor in the battle, as with its slow effect the b/c can't keep up with
kensai. So in the next battle everything is the same except the B/C is equipped with a ring of free action. (how many monsters in bg2 are equipped with rings of free action?)
Battle 2

1) 16.63 K died
2) 17.47 K died
3) 18.03 K died
4) 15.88 K died
5) 20.75 K died
This is fast becoming a strategy match vs a class/weapon match, but obviously the bezerker/cleric is good.

In the next battle both the Kensai and B/C have same weapons and proficiencies.
5+ in Warhammer, 4+ in katana, 3+ in 2 h
Wielding Crom Faeyr and Celestial Fury
Using ring of EarthControl instead of freeaction on bezerker
Spells cast on Bezerker before battle: Armor of faith, Barkskin and Barbarian special "Enrage" activated
Kensai using Kai ability.

1) 22.98 B/C died
2) 19.23 K died
3) 13.28 B/C died
4) 15.62 K died
5) 17.87 K died
6) 12.72 B/C died
7) 12.93 B/C died
8) 17.12 K died
9) 18.75 B/C died
10) 16.13 K died
The results are inconclusive, each died the same,5 times, however the kensai usually had only a few HP left after winning wheras the B/C had more, also during fight it looked like the kensai was getting whooped more and only a couple critical hits saved his backside.
In the next fight i decided to even things up a bit, fight dual class with dual class.
The results are what i expected and what is already know, kensai/mages rock, really rock,
STATISTICS
Kensai/mage level 12/16 139 hp (276 with tensers, Ac-12)
Spells cast on Kensai before battle:Ghost armor, blur, stoneskin, Improv haste, Fireshield red and blue and tensers transorm.
Equipment is the same, as is proficiencies.
Also note: i only cast stoneskin once, it lasted through three battles, i felt sorry for B/C so didnt cast it again
Spells cast on Bezerker before battle: Armor of faith, Barkskin and Barbarian special "Enrage" activated (Also -12Ac)
Kensai not using Kai ability (maybe a bug but i couldnt activate the kai with all of the above spells active, might have somethin to do with tensers being on), didnt need it anyway.

1) 13.22 B/C died (no damage to K)
2) 10.84 B/C died (no damage to K)
3) 10.98 B/C died (no damage to K)
4) 8.59 B/C died (stoneskin finally wore off, K lost 23hp (out of 278))
5) 15.90 B/C died (lost 47 hp (out of 278))
The Kensai's spell repitoire makes him extremely deadly for a given period of time, and the B/C is extremly strong, without need for alot of magic backup. Both classes have their good and bad points and their true skills arent shown by them pummeling each other, but it sure is fun.

------------------
KensaiRyu, Grand Master of the Saints of the Sword.

shesgottahaveit · Post by **shesgottahaveit** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:29 pm

Hello KensaiRyu,

I am new to this board (from the other board) . These tests you run are pretty cool.

I was surprised to see the F/C held up so well in your second example. You should try a R/C who gets Iron skin and creeping doom. I still think the Kensai/mage would win since that's the most powerful char in the game.

What's so special about FOA? I use it but don't think it compares to CFury.

shesgottahaveit · Post by **shesgottahaveit** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:39 pm

You ever try the Inquisitor?

[This message has been edited by shesgottahaveit (edited 03-22-2001).]

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:28 pm

Yeah its one of my favs for my 2nd fighter (to back up K/M), like using cav with 2+ in 2 handed weapons, 2 +in halbreds, 2 in 2h swords. Awesome class, i hate being held, true sight comes in very handy.
Did u get my K/m? i am having trouble with ISP.

------------------
KensaiRyu, Grand Master of the Saints of the Sword.

Mielikki · Post by **Mielikki** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:31 pm

"What's so special about FOA? I use it but don't think it compares to CFury."

1/3 chance of slow with no save throw allowed =]
meaning anything xcelt a monk would have his ass slowed when.
FoA rules.

------------------
~Goddess Of Forests and all Rangers~

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:32 pm

I must say I like tests like that. However barksin does nothing for someone already wearing plate mail and you should cast four armour of faith to see the potential. Also cast bladebarrier holypower righteous magic and draw upon holy might. Then I believe the b/c will win. Obviously the kensai/mage can cast breach etc but that is another story.

------------------
Proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods.

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:32 pm

my thoughts exactly Mielikki

------------------
KensaiRyu, Grand Master of the Saints of the Sword.

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:37 pm

I was hoping someone would give me some more ideas. Ok i'll do that have results ASAP Bruce.I dont usually play a B/C so i had to guess what spells they would use.

------------------
KensaiRyu, Grand Master of the Saints of the Sword.

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:39 pm

i think let the B/C dual wield crom/FoA, then with at least 3 slots for 2 weapons style, how about that, he could have a chance winning

shesgottahaveit · Post by **shesgottahaveit** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:55 pm

Gotit. Thanks..

------------------
You would'nt hurt a lady would ya? hahahehehe

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:29 am

Interesting results. I think a B/C with spells cannot be compared to a pure fighter. But the B/C vs K/M is interesting.
The B/C (9/20) spells: Free Action, 4xArmour of Faith, Aid, Holy Power, Rightous Magic, Draw Upon Holy Might (in this order). The weapons should be of course Flail of Ages + Crom Faeyr and start with activating Berseker rage.
Spells on the K/M (9/17) side: Stoneskin, Spirit Armor, Blur, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Improved Haste, Protection from Magical Weapons and Tenser's transformation (in this order). Celestial + FOA is the weapon and start with activating KAI.
I would let out both the mages fireshields and cleric blade barrier (as those are "attack spells") and specific defenses from elementals.

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 3:23 am

A berzerker/cleric cannot, to my knowledge, use any kind of swords, so the best combo you could use in such a battle is the FoA/crom faeyr. Probably best to have the FoA in right hand as well, at least for these duels.

But what i cannot understand is not using draw upon holy might, it is a must for any battkle, and no cleric wouldnt use it, as it is "cheap", i think it is level 2 or 3 spell.
Of course a highlevel cleric would have 25 in str con dex, but thats part of the game, Draw upon holy might is the most common used cleric spell (offensive). So try to beat a berzerker cleric with above equipment, but wielding Foa/crom faeyr, and draw upon holy might and see what can beat him. There are a much bigger number of useful spells that can be used, but i cant see they will be needed to beat a non/cleric.

If you can find a character beating a cleric using draw upon holy might i be sure to show you the other spells to be used fighting a duel, but i bet it wont be needed, as he is great at giving damage, and more or less invulnerable to status with enrage and ring of free action.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:39 am

Let us have an agreement on the best weapons for a given class and also the best defensive/enhancement spells.
Sigurd and any clerics: please check the above recommendations for B/C. Is there any important spell what is missing? (for a head to head figting duel). It seems we agree in the weapons as FOA + CF.
Same questions for those who have mastered kensai/mages. Is there any important spell what is missing? (for a head to head figting duel). I'm not sure about CF (katana) + FOA against a super-duper always saving PC. What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Kovi (edited 03-23-2001).]

ROWDIN · Post by **ROWDIN** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:09 am

Berserker celrics are a higher spell caster than any p.c mage in the game, level 20 vs level 17. so the celric can dispell better than the mage who might not dispell all of the celrics spells because he's trying to dispell spells cast by a higher level player.
why sould you dual two weapons go with one and a better armour class the k/m might not have the thaco needed to get past the armour
class my b/c can get -17 without spells or drow items or two rings of gaxx. If your going to do tests than keep than real, items and pcs, has you would find than in the game.
if you have downloaded all of the patchs than you can't get two rings of gaxx anymore. Lets do this hardcore. yours Rowdin.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:23 am

I suggested to also try these fighting duels with dual classes and defensive/enhancement spells. You are right about dispel magic, but then it soon became a spell battle which is a different thing. (I think the mage would win a spell removal battle with Breach, Spell Immunity:Abjuration and more and better high level deflection/removal spells).
About the shield: I think both B/C and K/M will reach AC: -20 with the recommended spells. I agree with the rule of only one Gaxx, the other ring should be the Prot+2.

[This message has been edited by Kovi (edited 03-23-2001).]

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:09 am

Crom Faeyr/Flail of Ages is the best dual weapon combo for a high level duel...regardless of class.

As far as single weapon/shield goes, I think that is a valid question for normal fighters, but with spells the F/M and F/C will hit the AC limit anyway so you want to go dual. For Kensai or Barbarian it might be worth it to use Sentinel instead of a weapon.

If we're talking about the ultimate best equipment available in the game, double Gaxx is still valid since those patches aren't official. Still, it isn't the way it was meant to work and it looks like KensaiRyu is already doing the tests without them.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:45 pm

So who won the duel? The kensai/mage probably. Something that is pretty funny is to get a shapechange scroll.
Let the kensai/mage cast shapechange and the mirror image stoneskin and improved haste. Change your shape to irongolem and activate kai!! This means 54 damage per hit. It works even better with an off hand weapon equipped.
It looks cool too.

------------------
Proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods.

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:13 pm

Well, CF kill Golems with one hit...

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 7:38 pm

OK, I have tested the dual duels as defined above. I gave Ring of Free Action for the K/M instead of Prot+2. The initial statistics were similar:
K/M: AC:-15, THAC0: -13/-11, HP:214
B/C: AC:-15, THAC0: -13/-13, HP:198
except the attack rate (K/M is twice as fast with improved haste and I haven't activated the improved haste of Gaxx at B/C as it is too short time, same applies to Kai)
In the first 8 rounds there were no serious hits. But then the K/M defenses weared off rapidly. The berserker rage of the B/C has ended, but the K/M soon died, as he still didn't do serious damage on the B/C. The 4xAoF is just too strong protection.
Anyway the best fighter is probably a dual Cleric/Mage (11/16) it can use protections/enhancement of both classes.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 9:35 pm

CF kills stone golems and clay golems...not iron golems. So the BC won? You shouldn't have tensers on for the kensai mage which would mean that he could cast a quick spell like stoneskin when protections wear off but I guess then it becomes to complex. Suffice to say that they are both very strong.
Also the k/m could use the staff of the magi.

------------------
Proud member of the Brotherhood of the woods.