When D&D went downhill...

Roder · Post by **Roder** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 5:36 pm

I used to be the biggest fan of D&D. I played day and night, night and day, possibly some twilight too, with a few of my friends. I had the rulebooks. Bah! I didn't need them, I knew the rules by heart.

But then D&D (or rather AD&D) went downhill. It all started with the introduction of CRAZY things in Dragon magazine. Now I know you're all going to hate me, but I think the whole overcomplication of D&D started with the introduction of psyionics (sp?)... guides would come out telling you how to acquire the new Sword of Bethoven +32, +1 against liches, +3.35 against orcs and dragons, and how to use it to calculate your WHACO (it's just like THACO only better and improved with more purple dots on it). New creatures appeared in new manuals that would make your head spin 180 degrees until you looked like a morbid owl. Wow... It was about that point when AD&D lost its charm. Sure, you could - and still can - just play with the old rules. But I always felt like I was a step behind - stuck in an eternal time machine while the world was moving forward around me.

In summation, this post really has no point. Just to tell you all how I got disenchanted with D&D. Not that anyone cares.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 4:36 am

Don't play by the old rules, play by the core books(DMG, PHB Etc)

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 5:47 am

Having played BG and it's 2nd edition rules, I've bought the 3rd edition rules, they are refreshingly very good. I enjoy reading the PHB, in fact I've re-read it many times!

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:51 pm

Yeah, I would also say the the 3rd edition rules are well thought out. And all those things that bother you about AD&D...well, you can just as easily not have psionics in your modules, and you can have very few magical weapons so that you don't have all-powerful characters.

Play the type of game you like.

Goodgulf · Post by **Goodgulf** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 5:01 pm

I hear you.

I long for a return to "White Plume Mountain", "The shrine of the Kua Toa" or "The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl." Back when there were not 20 different kinds of fighters and 5 different kinds of elves.

Does anybody remember that first riddle in White Plume? Round she is yet flat as a board, altar of the lupine lords, pearl in black velvet . . .. That is all I remember.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 6:52 pm

Originally posted by Nippy
Having played BG and it's 2nd edition rules, I've bought the 3rd edition rules, they are refreshingly very good. I enjoy reading the PHB, in fact I've re-read it many times!

I'm currently reading the PH, after which I'll read the DMG. I find the rules to be very interesting and I can't wait to put them into practice when I start playing D&D with my 'rents.

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 12:43 am

Originally posted by Roder
But then D&D (or rather AD&D) went downhill. It all started with the introduction of CRAZY things in Dragon magazine. Now I know you're all going to hate me, but I think the whole overcomplication of D&D started with the introduction of psyionics (sp?)... guides would come out telling you how to acquire the new Sword of Bethoven +32, +1 against liches, +3.35 against orcs and dragons, and how to use it to calculate your WHACO (it's just like THACO only better and improved with more purple dots on it). New creatures appeared in new manuals that would make your head spin 180 degrees until you looked like a morbid owl.

I think one of the causes of this is that the original D&D was too simple in it's design. Sure, it's easy to learn and quick to play, but that makes add-ons for it difficult to create while remaining in the original system. The only way to expand the game is to add overpowered rules systems such as psionics, which I find don't interact with the rest of the combat and magic systems very well at all.

As for overpowered monsters and magical items, again because the system is so simple there isn't anywhere to go with them. You can add special abilities and bonuses, additional HD and attacks all you like, but the new creations are just beefed-up versions of existing creatures and items.

IMO D&D is good for a quick hack'n'slash dungeon crawl, but it really doesn't cut it for in-depth campaigns and rolepalying.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 11:18 am

@ Mr Flibble

I don't think D&D is just a quick hack & slash, I think if properly DM'ed, with good role players and good characters, not to mention a solid story, it is entertaining to play in, and to read/watch. I like to read D&D stories and enjoy reading how other people's campaign goes.

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 1:48 pm

Originally posted by Nippy

I don't think D&D is just a quick hack & slash, I think if properly DM'ed, with good role players and good characters, not to mention a solid story, it is entertaining to play in, and to read/watch. I like to read D&D stories and enjoy reading how other people's campaign goes.

Don't get me wrong, I still think AD&D is a great game, but I've done a lot of roleplaying in much more advanced systems (eg Harnmaster, Rolemaster, Millenium's End) and find that the rules of 2nd edition are rather limiting in what you can do. In a combat system where the only way for powerful characters to die is by massive sustained damage, the easiest way to challenge very powerful characters is to make bigger and badder monsters and weapons. Of course, proplery roleplayed and DM'ed there's a lot more to it, but the basic rules are for the most part a simple combat and magic system. I haven't actually seen 3rd edition yet, so I may very well be wrong on the game's evolution, but I've found that D&D is really quite far behind in what other systems are capable of.

On the other hand, some will argue that it's simplicity is what makes D&D so playable. There aren't any complex rules to have to manage every time a player wants to do something different. That's up to personal choice though.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:16 pm

Originally posted by Mr Flibble

Don't get me wrong, I still think AD&D is a great game, but I've done a lot of roleplaying in much more advanced systems (eg Harnmaster, Rolemaster, Millenium's End) and find that the rules of 2nd edition are rather limiting in what you can do. In a combat system where the only way for powerful characters to die is by massive sustained damage, the easiest way to challenge very powerful characters is to make bigger and badder monsters and weapons. Of course, proplery roleplayed and DM'ed there's a lot more to it, but the basic rules are for the most part a simple combat and magic system. I haven't actually seen 3rd edition yet, so I may very well be wrong on the game's evolution, but I've found that D&D is really quite far behind in what other systems are capable of.

On the other hand, some will argue that it's simplicity is what makes D&D so playable. There aren't any complex rules to have to manage every time a player wants to do something different. That's up to personal choice though.

Ah... See, there's your problem, 2nd edition rules limited you through having a rigid classing system and poor ability score systems and a bad idea for AC (why negative numbers?!?). 3rd edition allows one fighter to be a pure fighter, in your face sword up an enemies bum style or a dextrous, quick archer.

The beauty of 3rd edition is the feat and skill system. It's some of the best innovation I've seen and I suggest wholly you either buy the PHB or get a look on with the web based ones, it's definitely worth it.

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:38 pm

That's exactly what my entire roleplaying group doesn't like about AD&D. Every character of each class is basically the same, just using different weapons or spells.

Is 3rd edition a complete rewrite? Or just additional rules that make sense?

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 6:49 pm

I would say it's practically a complete rewrite, though my knowledge of second edition only goes as far as the Baldur's Gate Series.

Trust me. 3rd Edition allows for very customizable characters. You can have five fighters in a party, and each one have unique characteristics that distinguish him from the others, as well as make him a valuable asset. That of course doesn't even include the role-playing aspect, which will always make a well-defined character with a thought-out personality a fun experience.

Listen to Nippy on this one. Its the skills and feats system that makes it so awesome. 3rd Edition rules rock....I just wish I had a D&D group to play them with.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:57 am

Originally posted by average joe
I would say it's practically a complete rewrite, though my knowledge of second edition only goes as far as the Baldur's Gate Series.

Trust me. 3rd Edition allows for very customizable characters. You can have five fighters in a party, and each one have unique characteristics that distinguish him from the others, as well as make him a valuable asset. That of course doesn't even include the role-playing aspect, which will always make a well-defined character with a thought-out personality a fun experience.

Listen to Nippy on this one. Its the skills and feats system that makes it so awesome. 3rd Edition rules rock....I just wish I had a D&D group to play them with.

So you agree with me for once? Wow!

Like I say, I love the aspects of 3rd Edition and I love the way everything changes if you take a different feat. This is another advantage of 3rd Edition, if you have a party of fighters and 3 of them are melee based, then the other two could be ranged based and allow a very customised party and entertaining game.

The Stranger · Post by **The Stranger** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 1:51 pm

I would have to say that 3E rules are so far removed from the 2E rules that the game is the same in name alone (lots of rhyming...)
I have just bought the 3E books after alot of resistance and after looking them over, I wish I had picked them up earlier! I have played a huge amount of different games in my time from alot of different game companies. I have rarely seen a set of rules that make this much sense! They are great!

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 3:37 pm

Originally posted by The Stranger
I would have to say that 3E rules are so far removed from the 2E rules that the game is the same in name alone (lots of rhyming...)
I have just bought the 3E books after alot of resistance and after looking them over, I wish I had picked them up earlier! I have played a huge amount of different games in my time from alot of different game companies. I have rarely seen a set of rules that make this much sense! They are great!

Yes! Another person that agrees with me! So have you played any games yet?

I'll tell you what, I've got an idea. How about we try playing a game of D&D 3rd Edition over mIRC so that people can see what 3rd Edition is like. We can find the dice rolling scripts, and if I had the DM book, I'd be glad to DM. If someone else has it, then they are quite welcome to. We can play one of the free low-level adventures so they can see whats it like.

What do you reckon guys? Who fancies a game?

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 10:09 pm

If you hadn't guesses it by now....ME!ME!ME!ME!ME!

Just don't get my hopes up you bum. If we commit to do it let's not cancel it. Otherwise, Nips, I will be forced to punch you in the stomach!

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:45 am

Originally posted by average joe
If you hadn't guesses it by now....ME!ME!ME!ME!ME!

Just don't get my hopes up you bum. If we commit to do it let's not cancel it. Otherwise, Nips, I will be forced to punch you in the stomach!

Me? A bum?

If we get enough people we could do it, like I say, I don't have the DM book, but I might get it. Once we do it, we could do it, you know I'm a willing participant!

The Stranger · Post by **The Stranger** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 12:51 pm

I'm in! The only problem I could see is getting together at the same time! I am in the USA central time zone... That's 7 hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time... Perhaps we could play by e-mail and put a time limit on the responses to keep the game moving.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:18 pm

Originally posted by The Stranger
I'm in! The only problem I could see is getting together at the same time! I am in the USA central time zone... That's 7 hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time... Perhaps we could play by e-mail and put a time limit on the responses to keep the game moving.

Aye, maybe. You could play a Monk again, like you wanted to so many years ago! (I read your post in the other thread...)

The Stranger · Post by **The Stranger** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:22 pm

I will when we get this game going. I am investigating setting up a server at home (a really low level deal) that we could play on. I will let you know! As always, my e-mail in in my profile!