Character development

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Wed May 22, 2002 7:46 am

I would like to initiate the conversation about best tactics and strategies regarding skill development and level-up.
I'd try to explain on example of my Breton witch-hunter born in Ritual.
So, the first two levels i concentrated on misc. skills to raise STR, SPD, END. It's easy. Just so not employ major and minor skills to avoid level-up too fast. I managed to raise attributes at max. (i.e. 5).Now i believe it's time to start with some attribute of main assortiment, say, INT. The problem is almost all (save security) key skills for INT is in maj./min. list. There is no problem to raise INT (alchemy comes in mind), but i still would like to get 5es for all attributes i'm going to raise. I cannot use shield, for one thing - it'd advance next level, too, though i can allow to raise min./maj. skills not related with INT only as far as i can compensate it by security (not very much, i fear) and choose other attributes i'm going to rise from represented profitable enough in misc category. I even should use bound armour with care to avoid development of light armour skill and unarmored skill

etc. IMHO, the fighter classes (never tried one still, so i'm no sure) are in hardest position in those terms.
I hope you can see what i'm thinking about.
It's quite possible the problem is solved and tactics (what to do between levels) and strategies (what way and sequence to choose) are already developed.
Would be happy to hear your thoughts (well, see in this case

)
TIA,
L.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Wed May 22, 2002 7:54 am

P.S.

.... almost have forgotten: one should never use trainers for min./maj. skills save if he is going to raise skills out of min./maj. lists. It's easy to see

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Mon May 27, 2002 4:59 am

Well, a bit more exploring.
Managed to raise STR, END, SPD by 5 on level 2 and 3. Going to 4th i decided to boost INT. I managed to get 5 in it together with STR and END, borrowed 2 points from next level, though. It was unarmored skill what causes it because it seems almost impossible to use meadim/heavy and not gain raise in unarmored.
I'm still wondering about best development strat./tactic. Since it is obvious the level by itself means virtually nothing (or somebody knows real advantages of high level numbers?) it's waste or resources and time

to level up without at least 3 point in at least 3 attributes. What reason to jump levels as mad and stay weak? Altogether the grow of attributes may be gained only at levelup, and, for example, to gain advancement in rank one must have certain numbers in skills and attributes, not level. Also spellcasting and fighting abilities depend only on skills and attributes - or i'm wrong? The only importance of level-up is the chance to add to attributes.
Now i'm uncertain what my Breton Wich Hunter should go for. Two borrowed points seems to exclude the INT - most of INT boosters (except Security) are in major or minor skill list, and security is hard to raise - exploit with relocking chest doesn't fit because being caught my hero will immediately be kicked out of House, and i cannot find any good place for training. Agility even worse

so it leaves personality or willpower with strength and endurance as companions. Or maybe speed again - but there should be some growth of spellcasting abilities after all. Untill now my witch hunter have behaved more like fighter than mage

It's quite a paradox, the major and minor skills should be used and developed rather carefully, and, IMO, no more than related to one attribute per level. Still feel myself not completely adjusted with such logic

Thanks for your time,
L.

Odonatathrope · Post by **Odonatathrope** » Mon May 27, 2002 11:20 am

a few tips

These are to the best of my knowledge:

1. If you're wearing heavy/medium armor, you shouldn't be inadvertantly increasing your unarmored skill. My guess is this is because you're leaving your shield hand empty. You should only increase unarmored if part of your body is unarmored: head, chest, legs, feet, shoulders, hands, AND shield. If you are wearing heavy or medium helm, curiass, greaves, boots, pauldrons, gauntlets and carrying a shield, you will not increase unarmored. If you don't want to inadvertantly boost block, equip a shield but carry a two-handed weapon (e.g., bow). I think

.

2. The skill development in this game is very counter-intuitive, leading some to suggest you are better off leaving skills important to your class as miscellaneous to avoid leveling up too fast. Of course, this does not sit well with the idea of role-playing. I, too, try to maximize my ability gains on level-up, but I only try to get '5's in two abilities (normally all agility for the level up--I'm a thief--and then another ability completely in miscellaneous). The third point I put into luck. The reason for this is nothing you do will increase the modifier on luck--it will always be one point per level. Since you can only place one 'coin' per ability, it is easy to end up with all stats maxed and luck still at 50, requiring 50 more level-ups to max. So with luck, it's best to start early, and it has the added bonus of making the most out of leveling (two '5's as opposed to three).

3. You mention difficulty in getting agility up while avoiding rapid leveling. Is sneak one of your maj/min skills? If not, increasing sneak is easy (the weight-down-the-control-key-in-presence-of-NPC-and-walk-away tactic).

Hope these help.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Tue May 28, 2002 8:37 am

The agility problem

grows out of the fact that light armor, block, unarmored and sneak are all in major or minor skill list for witch hunter. If i'd wear shield it anyway would cause advancement to next level by raising the block skill.
Wondering how fighters fare with END - they should have spear and both medium and heavy armor in maj./min.

And sorceror - only spear skill out of min./maj.

As for roleplaying - wouldn't it be wiser to develop skills and train oneself on any spare moment and occasion to be prepared to anything what may happen? I'm traying to play noble, generous and considerate character

and as a witch hunter i know very well the importance of all-around preparedness. It's specific of job, the spectrum of possible opponents is very wide

, you know

cjdevito · Post by **cjdevito** » Tue May 28, 2002 10:31 am

Best advice I can give you, don't worry too much about maxing stats per level. Levels come fast and easy after you reach a certain point, particularly when you can afford to train.

If you get even 7 points per level up, you're fine. You can expect to reasonably get to level 40-50 before finishing the main quest, so that's 280-350 stat points to allocate. More, the corpus part of the main quest can result in tremendous bonuses to strength and endurance if you don't get yourself cured right away... you can easily get another 100 stat points that way.

Add in constant effect stat-raising items you can make yourself, along with those in the game (Mask of Clavicus Vile, Fists of Randagulf, etc) and you won't have any trouble maxxing your stats by main quest's end, without having to obsess about getting as many points as possible at level up.

Btw, if you're trying for 15 points at level up each time, you'll never max luck. No stats are associated with luck, so you'll never be able to raise it more then one point per level. So, if you want to max luck, pick it as one of your classes favored attributes to get a starting value of 50, then put one point into it each level for pretty much your character's entire career.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Tue May 28, 2002 11:02 am

Well,

i managed to keep it that way first 4 levels and, since i've discovered easy way to practice in both Security and Alteration, i see i'll do it also for level 5. As i see it the problem stands mostly for first, say, 10-15 levels. The main issue is END, i'm sure you can see it - mage classes do not come with great strength and endurance, at least not from magic-oriented races. Since real source of END is medium/heavy armor (not mentioning the fact they are importand to make one's way in House Redoran) the STR becomes sort of necessity. Speed is important altogether, because there are situations at the begining when the best way is to run, esp. if one is of kind of people tended to wander, explore end poke his nose where he isn't told to

I do reload, but not very often

and i cannot say i like to after my char. has been dead (happens, however

) To get a good start, IMHO, one need to get up quickly skills he anyway cannot survive without. And, from the other side, i hate to waste points, the numer of them isn't endless

cjdevito · Post by **cjdevito** » Tue May 28, 2002 11:19 am

If strength and endurance are your major worries, then just run through the first five or six blades quest as soon as you start the game. Only two actually involve any combat. After you do one of the early quests and kill Dagoth Gares, you'll have corpus.

Each day after you get corpus, your strength and endurance raise by one each. Permanently. Four other stats also drop by one each day, but only temporarily and they can be restored by spell/potion with no problem.

Kill two months of in-game time by resting, and you'll have maxed strength and endurance with a very low level character. Then go get it cured, another easy mission, then play the game from there.

But, from a more practical perspecitive, even if you're only earning 4-5 hit points per level, with 40-50 levels you're still going to end up with plenty of hit points. You'll have a rough spot from levels 10-20 because you'll have low (comparatively) hit points and be facing things like golden saints, but after level 20 or so the monsters don't get any tougher and your hp continue to increase.

Biljac · Post by **Biljac** » Tue May 28, 2002 1:07 pm

I think this is a rehash of what Fable called the difference between powergamer and I forget what he called the other end of the spectrum. I would fit into the powergamer side since I have nothing but obselete, non self leveling, non class definative skills in my major/minor. I have complete control over when I level and what stats I willbe taking up. I get 3 stats at 5 bonus every level. There is the question of luck. Well I started with the bonus to luck at creation so I joined game at 50 luck right off the bat. Maybe I am wrong here but so far as what i have read on various boards and what I gleaned from experimentation, luck does squat to anything but enchanting. Or at least very little I see. But even if it does, my plan is for a constant effect luck enchantment just for safety sakes. Now since luck has absoultely nothing to do with governing skill raises, I can not see passing up on those 5 bonus points. I mean the scenario is in 15 levels gain 15 points to luck OR gain 75 points to other stats. Heck you can make a 15 point luck fortification spell with a duration of 3 minutes as far as that goes. But to each his own. Don't know if this answered anything but I wanted to put my 2 drakes in

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Tue May 28, 2002 2:18 pm

Well, i believe i'm not a powergamer, at least not completely. It's true, i care about attributes and skills of my char, nonetheless i do not make my way just to get powerfull artifacts and items, and i do not steal or kill just because that NPC has one. I'm just playing a character who cares to stay alive

and, well, rather would not fail his mission

cjdevito · Post by **cjdevito** » Tue May 28, 2002 2:32 pm

luck does squat to anything but enchanting

Luck effects everything. Really. From alchemy and enchanting, to sneaking, picking locks or casting a spell or even swinging an axe. It works as an additional modifier on every thing you do in the game.

Biljac · Post by **Biljac** » Tue May 28, 2002 7:12 pm

ok ok

I personally never found, nor read of, any substantial help brought by luck other than enchanting. I mean I know what the manual says but still the fact remains that the 15 points in luck, to me anyway, does not overrule the logical reasoning that getting 75 points for other stats is better. Especially seeing that a 15 point luck spell or enchant is easy to get. Of course I am speaking of 15 levels. Same would apply be it 40 because by that time you would have dropped 200 stat points that could technically enable you to create or cast any luck you may want. Anyway as I stated, to each his own

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Wed May 29, 2002 1:31 am

Although it's worth to consider to add to luck at level-up if one hasn't got another attribute with multiplier. However, somewhere there was mentioned that 4 points of luck raises porbability of success only by 1%, so it takes at least 200 to be surely lucky

(assuming that initial rate at zero luck is 50 to 50)). That cannot be achieved by normal development, only by heap of items and spells.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Fri May 31, 2002 9:37 am

Well,

have found Details on the Leveling Curve (thanks to exelent Bullhonkie.com and Shakti's Morrowind Site)
Great thanks to all,
L.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:20 am

My God,

just considered the most single thing: one has just get so much points to get a level as number of minor and major skills multiplied by 100 minus sum of initial values ....

One definitely should be careful with development of those skills

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:24 am

and afterthought:

one can raise attributes as long one can raise level. When all minor/major skills are maxed, there is no way to change attributes ...

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jun 01, 2002 8:44 am

It's all about tradeoffs. If you want to have the easiest starting game, put the skills you're most going to use in your major and minor skills. So what if you eventually can't make new levels? It's not like you'll lack for great attributes and skill stats before that happens, IMO.

Alternatively, put the skills you least expect to use in your major and minor skills, and you'll keep increasing your level for a long, long time. In the game's early stages you'll be completely incompetent, of course. Being a huge, non-linear environment, you'll have many opportunities to increase your skills, finally arriving at a point where a much greater number of your skills are high than would ordinarily be the case. Again, it's whatever suits your mood. I wouldn't do it to powergame, however, simply because powergamers are never satisfied until they find the *one* true, best way to score everything. Tends to take the fun out of life, IMO.

Personally, I write the background of a character, then attempt to arrange my skills in a way that reflects that history. Thus far I haven't had any problems doing things this way, and I can completely forget about which weapon to use if I want to raise this particular stat 5x rather than 4x, etc. But each to their own.

Biljac · Post by **Biljac** » Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:28 am

Quote: "In the game's early stages you'll be completely incompetent, of course. "
Not true since cash is very easy to get and those extra skill levels you get by putting them in major/minor are totally eliminated with a few trainings. And in the interest of RPing, my character wants to be the best he/she can be so in essense he/she isn't considered a powergamer, since in the RPing respect they are not gamers but virtual persons.

cjdevito · Post by **cjdevito** » Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:35 am

I'm with Fable, to be honest. Levels really cease to be meaningful after about level 25.... and any character will be able to level to at least level 50, if not 60, without problems.

Biljac · Post by **Biljac** » Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:49 am

True probably (haven't reached that point myself) but that also points to the fact that skills are your characters main priority and not levels. In fact, IMO, the game would have been better off without levels. Levels actually go against the grain of true RPing. Skills development does not. Stats should have risen with skills development and not a level base.