The missing hero

serjeLeBlade · Post by **serjeLeBlade** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 8:41 am

Originally posted by jcompton

Well, it's not like Mike Sass is my neighbor and if I let him borrow my lawnmower he'll do up a pic for me, so yeah, we did the best we could. And as for "hero", if the ladies want that, there's always Anomen.

Eeek!

I came across this while making a search for info about Ceara...
What can I say? Really a statement!
You know, I'm playng a female pc right now, and I'm experiencing how narrow are the romance options for ladies in the Realms...

Luckyly, my pc is a really gentle and sensitive girl, and she does really like Kelsy's type...

(And for Anomen, when I heard him approving the burning of Viconia, that was definitely enough! I'd rather have HIM burned!)

I want to point out that, imho at least, there is NO male npc in SoA that I would call "an hero" (and I'm not speaking only of the romance-enabled guys, I really mean no one).
What do you think about it?
Is the pc supposed to be the only male character to look, act and speak like a real heroic-fantasy-style hero?
I mean, a Conan, or an Aragorn (from LOTR)...
There's hardly any guy of that sort, in SoA, imo.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 9:22 am

You remind me of something that Minsc said to Edwin: "My anger can only barely be contained! Speak to us as if we are anything but heroes, wizard, and you shall be receiving the rented-mule beating you deserve!"

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:03 am

Originally posted by VonDondu
You remind me of something that Minsc said to Edwin: "My anger can only barely be contained! Speak to us as if we are anything but heroes, wizard, and you shall be receiving the rented-mule beating you deserve!"

I think Minsc fits the character of the traditional hero most out of the male npcs. Besides the above, he starts frothing everytime the group's reputation climbs...and his pre-battle speech before the final fight with Irenicus is fantastic.

(Btw VonDondu, how do you and Uncle Scratchy quote dialogues so well?)

Maybe the designers wanted to avoid to many cliche Conans and Aragorns as they're a bit...dull (sorry). Far more interesting to have sociopaths with buckets of issues to deal with.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:20 am

Originally posted by kopywrite
(Btw VonDondu, how do you and Uncle Scratchy quote dialogues so well?)

I use Infinity Explorer to look up dialogues, then I cut and paste them to text files. It's a bit tedious, but it's not technically challenging at all.

NiteWulf · Post by **NiteWulf** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 5:17 am

B]I think Minsc fits the character of the traditional hero most out of the male npcs. Besides the above, he starts frothing everytime the group's reputation climbs...and his pre-battle speech before the final fight with Irenicus is fantastic. [/b]

I agree to that.
Also, Minscs' dialogue line when an npc gets petrified blinks of heroism.
But still I think the Npc's are not "colourful" enough.
They're too made -except for Aerie who has an interesting but scaring story.

I played DnD games with Npc's who could join your party who were starved almost to death, and beaten up, abused.. etc.
I even encountered some monster you could slay, but appeared to be lawful good and the best cleric in the game.

I think this is a weaker part of BG2, you just walk in the Copper Coronet and voila, you get 3 possible sidekicks.
Except for Mazzy, you have to free her, as well as Imoen.
Respond if you like....

Bad Karma · Post by **Bad Karma** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 8:26 am

Pertaining to NPC's at the Copper Coronet:

From my D&D experience, there were almost always adventurers hanging out in inns (maybe it was just my DM, but oh well). They were looking for help, or someone of like mind, or someone to betray. It seems fine to me.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 9:06 am

Originally posted by UncleScratchy
Actually, I've memorized every line in the game.

Okay, I fibbed. Like VonDondu said, just Download Infinity Explorer and you can go to the dialog files for the various characters. You can cut and paste the ones you like to MS Word or Wordperfect for easy reference. Easy.

Illusions. Shattered.

NiteWulf · Post by **NiteWulf** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:23 am

QUOTE]From my D&D experience, there were almost always adventurers hanging out in inns (maybe it was just my DM, but oh well). They were looking for help, or someone of like mind, or someone to betray. It seems fine to me.[/QUOTE]

I used to play the more old-school, dark and mysterious DnD games, maybe I'm too much used to them.
And BG isn't like that -although it does have strange intriges!

Guess I'm to much romancing the old times..... (the graphics and all that really sucked of course)
Must be gettin' old

[

Alson · Post by **Alson** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 1:35 pm

Originally posted by NiteWulf

I think this is a weaker part of BG2, you just walk in the Copper Coronet and voila, you get 3 possible sidekicks.
Except for Mazzy, you have to free her, as well as Imoen.
Respond if you like....

*SOME MINOR SPOILERS*
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
I'm probably forgeting some, but here some other NPC's that you need to rescue in quests, not just come and recruit them:

Hear'Dalis - planar prison quest.
Edwin - thieves guild quest
Valyger - planar sphere quest
Aerie - the circus tent quest

These are all NPC's that you need to search, and sometimes fight for them.

Not to metion Sola, the custom NPC... It takes ages to recruit him, but he's worth it!

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 2:52 pm

Regarding the argument that having NPCs available to join your party is a "weakness" of BG2, there are only two NPCs whose existence can't really be "justified" in the strongest possible terms: Anomen and Jan. When Jan can no longer sell his Flashers, he turns to unspecified "adventuring" to occupy his time. The subject of motivation isn't really addressed, aside from the promise of being able to earn more than 5 gold pieces a week (adventuring or mobile vegetable peddling--the eternal dilemma). Anomen is on a "quest to prove himself worthy", which means he doesn't have anything in particular in mind; he just wants to meet some noble companions, so he hangs out at the Copper Coronet (of all places). All of the other NPCs have a specific reason for being where they are or a specific quest they want to embark upon or a specific reason for wanting to be in your party.

Look at it this way: you can go to the Copper Coronet to look for travelling companions, and by they same token, so can they. Nalia and Korgan both need help (unlike Anomen), so they are at the Copper Coronet to look for companions (although that's also the reason why Anomen is there). That sounds like typical adventuring to me, and it goes to show that the world doesn't revolve around your own character. The Copper Coronet is well-known for being a place for adventurers to meet each other.

Minsc, Jaheira, and Imoen are supposed to be your old travelling companions. Jaheira even has a subplot that requires you to rescue her. Yoshimo joins you in your escape from the lab. Aerie needs your help. Viconia needs your help, and once you ger her out of her immediate fix, you're potentially the only people in Athkatla who would let her hang out with you. Keldorn is sent by the Temple to assist you on a quest the Temple has given you. Haer'Dalis needs your help. Mazzy needs your help. Valygar is the subject of a Cowled Wizard plot, and you can choose to assist him instead of them if you wish--there's a huge object sitting in the Slums of Athkatla, waiting for someone to do something about it. Edwin may or may not be a former travelling companion, but either way, you come in contact with him through a quest, and the two of you might find it mutually beneficial to travel together when that quest is over (as he points out, a lot of people feel that they could use a good Mage, and he can benefit from having some muscle on his side, as well). Cernd is also part of a major quest, and there's a good reason for letting him into your party (although it isn't mandatory).

IMO, their presence and their motivation for joining your group can be adequately explained, and I'm certainly glad they're available.

NiteWulf · Post by **NiteWulf** » Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:58 am

VonDondu, you're right about that.
Something must be done to get an NPC to join you most of the time, but I meant I find this "something" not hard enough.
Perhaps it's just my own preferation to make this not too easy.

I hope I didn't hurt anyone's BG-coloured heart.....

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:41 am

Originally posted by NiteWulf
VonDondu, you're right about that.
Something must be done to get an NPC to join you most of the time, but I meant I find this "something" not hard enough.
Perhaps it's just my own preferation to make this not too easy.

I hope I didn't hurt anyone's BG-coloured heart.....

I understand what you mean. It would have been great if at least a couple of party NPCs refused to join you unless you could present them with, say, the results of a quest--restoring a stolen object, or finding a lost relative. Of course, the logical reply to that is, "Well, what NPC wouldn't want to join you in the effort?" But I can see several types that might hold back:

1) A morose, despondent type, who has basically given up all hope, and spends all their time drinking or staring at frogs in a swamp.

2) A person who is frankly too engaged in an obsession of theirs to really care about your interests. Help them by pursuing one line of inquiry while they pursue another, find what they're looking for so desperately, and they'll join you.

3) A person who is forced to remain in a certain place pending the retrieval of information that will let them leave. The most obvious example would be a wrongly jailed NPC. You need to find a piece of evidence that would clear them of all charges.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:11 pm

Interesting thread...

as for the hero, KELDORN!!!!

A classic knight in shinning armour!!

I'll post again when I have more time

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Aug 12, 2002 9:35 pm

Sir Keldorn...

...the closest "hero" as hero can be.

You'd probably know what I mean once you finish ToB and see what happens to him afterwards...

...too bad though for the lady pc's... he's taken already.

...on the other hand... what if, Kelds had his wife sent to prison and found new love in the lady pc?

...

...it has got possibilities...

NiteWulf · Post by **NiteWulf** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:21 am

I understand what you mean. It would have been great if at least a couple of party NPCs refused to join you unless you could present them with, say, the results of a quest--restoring a stolen object, or finding a lost relative. Of course, the logical reply to that is, "Well, what NPC wouldn't want to join you in the effort?" But I can see several types that might hold back:

That's exactly what I was trying to say.
It would have added to the atmosphere of the game to add some NPC's with "difficulties", and once you have given them a push in the right direction, they show to be a more than welcome enforcement.

This would have made Baldurs Gate a little less interesting for the real massacre-maniacs among us, but would be a great improving for others.
Just think of the satisfaction you'll get from helping such a person and see how skilled he really is when you've helped him clear his head.

3) A person who is forced to remain in a certain place pending the retrieval of information that will let them leave. The most obvious example would be a wrongly jailed NPC. You need to find a piece of evidence that would clear them of all charges.

But not in the Cernd-way, I mean REAL intriges, like Valygars' only a lot bigger.

Thanks fable, at least someone who agrees

serjeLeBlade · Post by **serjeLeBlade** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:47 am

Minsc thinks to be a real hero, indeed... he's just a little bit lacking in charisma and wits to play the role convincingly... but I get along with him quite well, he sometimes really managed to have me believe that Minsc, Boo and me were actually the greatest heroes of the Realms

And he's the only one bioware npc that joins you without asking anything in return. In fact, he's on the same mission as you: taking revenge against Irenicus.

What I was trying to say in the beginning of this thread, is that Kelsey actually offers his help for free.
Many npc want to join if you help them on some quests, Kelsey is the only one that wants to join just to help YOU!
Did you ever think about that?
This in one of the reasons I like him so much

Even better would have been someone who was already after Irenicus before you get captured ... someone who approaches you to ask to join forces just because he saw you fight Irenicus on Waukeen Promenade.
Some kind of Wizardslayer who was tracking down Irenicus for years.

I mean, does really nobody throughout the realms care about that crazed uber-powerful mutated elf mage more than the PC?

The only official hero on stage in SoA is Drizzt... he helps against Bodhi (but doesn't join) ... fine but...
After that, he just goes away?

Isn't some Jon Irenucus leading an army of drow in a war against elves supposed to be Drizzt' s busines at all?

Someone could say that Drizzt is too powerful for an npc... (I'd say who cares, if you can get him only in chapter 6 and you're actually powerful enough to kill him and his party, doesn't that mean that he's not "too powerful" any more?)

I'd liked to meet some more Forgtten Realms characters around in SoA, and to have the opportunity to have them in the party.
Even "minor" heroes, like Alias or her saurian paladin friend Dragonbait.

(Wow, Dragonbait would have been whole lots of fun more than Keldorn, if he were the only Paladin npc available, now that I think of it!)

The party finds Carsomyr... and it turns out "the lizard" is the only character capable of wielding it!

(Anybody knows what I'm talkin' about, by any chance?)

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:38 am

Originally posted by serjeLeBlade
The party finds Carsomyr... and it turns out "the lizard" is the only character capable of wielding it!

(Anybody knows what I'm talkin' about, by any chance?)

Not really...Dragonbait would be a dragon polymorphed into a paladin??

From the FR books, right?

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 11:52 pm

I'm not sure how Dragonbait feels about copyright infringement...

@Mahar- Can always trust my C0MM buddy to leap into the fray to defend my pov.

As for a romance, Keldorn pretty old.. like 60.
(He kinda reminds me of Sean Connery)

As for powerful NPC's like Drizzt, I think the ones in your party already are pretty powerful. Keldorn is a high ranking member of the Radiant Heart,
Cernd is a well known and respected Druid from the North, Nalia is a noble, Mazzy is already a famous adventurer, Haer Dalis is far from unknown in the other plains...

So really, there are some greatly powerful ppl who join you.