Two weapon fighting

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:32 pm

I've noticed that normal penalties for two weapons are -6 on the primary hand, and -10 on the off-hand. Even with ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting feats, it's *still* -4 on both hands. Does anybody intend to use this, and how can you justify it? Seems pretty steep a loss, to me.

Coren · Post by **Coren** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 3:15 am

I fyou have two weapon fighting, ambidex, and use a small weapon on your off hand, the penalties are reduced to -2/-2

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 4:43 am

Originally posted by fable
Does anybody intend to use this, and how can you justify it? Seems pretty steep a loss, to me.

People will for the following reasons:

1. It looks cool.

2. Two-weapon fighting enables you to use more of the cool hardware in the game.

3. It gives you an extra chance to hit (especially useful against spellcasters).

4. Dual-weilding two weapons does more damage than one weapon (ie-a 2H sword does 1d10 HP, but two long swords do 2d8)

5. Some of the penalty can be made up with the base attack bonuses, STR and DEX bonuses, other feats and magic weapons. Plus, when you get up into the +14/+8/+2 attack range, -4 isn't that much of a penalty.

My biggest problem with two-weapon fighting is that sometimes a shield (and its AC bonus of +1 to +6) is more useful than a second weapon.

Demis · Post by **Demis** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:52 am

Two-weapon fighting is good for all the reasons mentioned by HLD plus when you wield two weapons you can get the bonuses from both (immunities, resistances, extra elementals damage etc).

Improved two weapon fighting and weapon focus is not included in IWD2 right?

Coren · Post by **Coren** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:07 am

Improved two weapon fighting isn´t, weapon focus is.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:19 am

Originally posted by Coren
I fyou have two weapon fighting, ambidex, and use a small weapon on your off hand, the penalties are reduced to -2/-2

I'm looking at the final manual. It specifically points out the values of ambi and two-weapon fighting as -4/-4. Do you know for a fact that the use of small weapons provides an automatic bonus of +2/+2 to combat? I find that a little hard to accept, no offense intended.

Demis · Post by **Demis** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:38 am

Originally posted by fable

I'm looking at the final manual. It specifically points out the values of ambi and two-weapon fighting as -4/-4. Do you know for a fact that the use of small weapons provides an automatic bonus of +2/+2 to combat? I find that a little hard to accept, no offense intended.

IWD2 manual??

From NWN experience, a light off-hand weapon lowers the penalty for both weapons by 2. Without ambidexterity but with two weapon fighting and a light off-hand weapon the penatly is -2/-6. This is where ambidexterity levels things up, if included the penalty goes -2/-2.

Coren · Post by **Coren** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:50 am

That´s how it is in 3E and NWN, there´s no reason why it shouldn´t be the same in IWD2. Plus, it been discussed at the official site forum (can´t link now obiously, since the forum´s down). I´m as certain as you can be without having seen the game...

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:06 am

Originally posted by Coren
That´s how it is in 3E and NWN, there´s no reason why it shouldn´t be the same in IWD2. Plus, it been discussed at the official site forum (can´t link now obiously, since the forum´s down). I´m as certain as you can be without having seen the game...

I've got final code and final manual, since I'm reviewing the game for one of the major gaming websites. Just arrived yesterday. As you can imagine, I immediately started absorbing the manual, looking for changes that wouldn't be obvious on the screen. The penalty for two weapons struck me at once, on page 41. The small chart (under the heading, Attacking with Two Weapons) looks something like this:

Normal Penalties: -6/-10
Ambidexterity Feat: -6/-6
Two-Weapons Fighting Feat: -4/-8
Both Feats: -4/-4

That's not to say the manual is automatically perfect. The above could be wrong. Manuals have made mistakes, before. But while I'm no number-crunching demon, it *looks* right.

Coren · Post by **Coren** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:17 am

Well, I mean -4/-4 seems immensly exagerated to me....especially if the character isn´t fighter class and doesn´t gain +1 BAB per level. We´ll have to wait untill those blasted forums are up and get an answer from the testers...

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:18 am

Agreed: and that's why I wonder that if it's truly -4/-4, will anybody actually go for it? At -2/-2, I can certainly see it, especially if you have a character wielding two kick-ass short swords or even daggers: imagine a high level thief backstabbing with a pair of those! But at -4/-4, I have to wonder if it would have any other use.

Volcane666 · Post by **Volcane666** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 12:37 pm

I will have ONE of my fighter types (or even a rogue with a level of ranger taken) use dual wielding but that is all...

The above stats are the same as NWN and you only get the -2/-2 if using a light weapon in the offhand as mentioned above...

Schwoebli · Post by **Schwoebli** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 12:38 pm

I wouldn't dualwield for damage reasons. lets compare a two handed sword with 2x longswords:

lets assume you normaly get 3 attacks per round

so with the two-handed sword you will do:

1d10 + (1.5* str modifier) + 1d10 + (1.5* str modifier) + 1d10 + (1.5* str modifier)

for a total damage of 3d10 + 3*(1.5*str modifier)

with two longsword you will get:

1d8 + (1* str modifier) + 1d8 + (1* str modifier) + 1d8 + (1* str modifier) + 1d8 + (1* str modifier)

damage total: 4d8 + 4*(1*str modifier)

let us take a char with str 18 (which is relativly low for a fighter

). you will have a str modifier of +4

so with a two-handed sword you will do 3d10 + 3*(1.5*4) damage for a total of 21 - 48 damage per round.

with two longswords you will do 4d8 + 4*(1*4) damage. your damage would be 20 - 48 per round.

not much of a difference. but: this is calculated with only 18 str! calculate it through with a higher str modifier and you will see the difference. furthermore it is calculated with a longsword (not a small weapon) in your off-hand which means you will hit with a -4 modifier for this weapon.

on the other hand you could take an elf then the penalty with two longswords would only be -1 / -3.

conclusion: if you have a char with high str (orc barbar or something similar) you should take a two-handed weapon. if you str isn't that high you are maybe more leathel when dualwielding.

what i didn't looked at: improved two weapon fighting, criticals, range of the weapon, haste and slow effects, weapon bonuses

Werewullfe · Post by **Werewullfe** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:48 pm

It is -2/-2 with a small weapon, in IWD2 small weapons are, short sword, dagger, and hand ax(I will have a gnome ranger duel wielding these....

)

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 2:08 pm

Originally posted by Werewullfe
It is -2/-2 with a small weapon, in IWD2 small weapons are, short sword, dagger, and hand ax(I will have a gnome ranger duel wielding these.... )

@Werewulfe, could you post your source for this information? I can only go by the manual, and it doesn't list this. Thanks.

Werewullfe · Post by **Werewullfe** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 2:23 pm

Originally posted by fable

@Werewulfe, could you post your source for this information? I can only go by the manual, and it doesn't list this. Thanks.

A BIS guy(I think it was Puuk or J.E. Sawyer) on the BIS forum told me.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:35 pm

Originally posted by Werewullfe
A BIS guy(I think it was Puuk or J.E. Sawyer) on the BIS forum told me.

I think you're right. I just found a chart on the 147th page (whew!) that shows the penalty dropping to -2/-2 if the off-hand weapon is light. Interestingly, it does *not* mention the primary hand weapon. Either that's a typo by implication, or you can use a weapon like a longsword in the primary hand and still go with -2/-2.

This really does make the option a bit more attractive, IMO, at least once you've acquired some enchanted stuff to mess around with.

Un-Maimed · Post by **Un-Maimed** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:07 pm

I think that the main hand weapon doesnt matter - for the -2/-2 penalty. Only the off hand one needs to be light. *I remember that from a BIS board*.....

This kinda makes sense - especially if you think about old style dueling (before pistols) - with a rapier and a long dagger (for parying, or occasionally used for stabbing).....

but, anyway -2/-2 wouldnt be too bad a penalty for another attack at your highest BAB.

Mianna · Post by **Mianna** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:25 am

I think that it would be cool to have my ranger 2 or 3/druid xx dual-wield scimitars. Would this suck? Is it better to hand her only one scimitar? I also wonder the amount of magical scimitars in ID2...I don´t remember seeing any in ID1 and just a few in BG2.

Virgil57 · Post by **Virgil57** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:20 pm

-Mianna

IMO that combination should work well, scimitars are a really good weapon because they critical over a large range. With improved critical and a keen scimitar you could critical one in 4/5 hits or close to it (I think 16-20 or 15-20 on attack role will critical with that feat/keen weapon).