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What is motivating Bush ?

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dragon wench
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What is motivating Bush ?

Post by dragon wench »

Up here on the northern side of the border... there is something I find truly perplexing, and I am hoping those of you in the US might be able to shed some light on the subject.

When Bush decided to pursue war with Iraq I wondered if his actions were largely driven by an effort to bolster a sagging popularity.... However...he failed to garner substancial international support.... Worse yet...(at least this is impression we generally have in Canada) it seems that many Americans are less than receptive at the thought of war with Iraq.

I would have thought that general reaction towards inciting hostilities would have acted to deter Bush from following such a course...yet he continues onwards. Does this mean that maybe there is in fact a threat of which the public remains unaware, or is it simply that Bush is bent on pursuing an agenda stemming not from any sort of serious reflection, but rather from purely ideological dogma?

I know we have a diverse set of views on such matters here at SYM and I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts.
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Post by Bloodstalker »

"finishing Daddy's War" :rolleyes:
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Post by Kameleon »

Maybe he's a secret Brit, and is plotting the destruction of America as revenge for the whole Independence thing?

EDIT - Rereading the original post, this could just be a serious topic, in which case I will attempt to put down a proper answer to the question... :)
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Post by dragon wench »

@Kameleon,
*grins*
Well it is a serious question, but I do appreciate a discreet amount of topic-related humour as well :)
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Post by Kayless »

Maybe Athlete's Foot has got the President down? But we can fix that!

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Post by fable »

Folks, she indicated a *discreet* amount of humor, and that this was an attempt at serious discussion. Let's honor her request. :)
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Post by MasterDarkNinja »

okay here is what I think is the reason why Bush is doing what he is (I live in the USA).

Bush's father was president when the golf war happened, Saddam wasn't removed from power, Bush want's to finish what was started a while ago.
interesting facts on the subject though that I know about as well for the war are this

In the demands given to Iraq one of them (made or suggested by Bush) was to let the weapon inspectors use Force if necessary. why would he want to use force? the answer is that Bush WANTS Iraq to refuse the demands so that a war can happen.(I'm serious, pay closer attention to your history teachers).

also the USA people that support the war are saying that Iraw does have weapons of mass destruction stored since a recent thing said by Iraq was to let the USA weapon inspectors back into Iraw but under the old terms from years ago. this means that they cannot go into the 8 palaces in Iraw (the palaces are government buildings)
in the past the USA says that the palaces were used to store weapons of mass destruction so Saddam is hidding stuff inside of them. they say that if Iraq has nothing to hide then it would let the weapon inspectors back into Iraq with access to Everywhere and not just most of the country.
that argument is the main reason that most USA government people who support the war are supporting it. there is a fear by Bush that Iraq will get powerful weapons of mass destruction and he will use them against the USA or it's allies which will make 9-11-01 look like nothing once so ever. there is a fear that Saddam could end up using weapons of mass destruction while not caring about what happens to himself for doing it (but this is not likely to happen even if Iraq had such weapons since Sadam will do anything to remain in power).
Also more motivation to get rid of Sadam's rule is how he used some stuff on his own people, it is illegal to speak against Sadam in Iraq (so you will probably not hear anything saying that Sadam is a corrupt rule)

Bush made a speech last night about why we should go to a war with Iraq (speaking to americans only I think) this speech however wasn't covered by a huge number of news stations (I heard about this one from my dad who had a hard time finding a station showing bush's speech).
Congress has now had it taken to them to start decided if we should go to war with Iraq without help from the United Nations...

as for how I feel on this issue I used to support a war against Iraq but now I've become undecided but now I'm starting to side against the war.
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Post by McBane »

@ mental nomad - I rather doubt it is the oil. I don't think "Shrub" (as Fable calls him ) plans to occupy Iraq to gain control of oil. In fact, it appears he has no real plan on what to do after Hussein is ousted.

It is obvious he is using the "war effort" to deflect legitimate issues here in the states, and is deperately trying to help the republicans regain control of the Senate. (BTW, I just loved the comment he made concerning the Senate democrats, that they are not interested in the security of the US...I am sure Sen Inouye appreciated the statement)

It could also be that Shrub just wants to do better than his father. Hang on to the office for 2 terms, dear ol' dad only did one.

I wonder, with so many of Sr.'s associates on staff, how much influence does he have within his son's administration?

**looks around, realising he does not really participate in these discussions, looks embarrassed, and leaves** ;)
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Post by Gwalchmai »

I heard this from a very liberal friend of mine (she’s borderline scary, she’s so left), but it has to do with oil. Apparently, the Saudi Arabia leadership is breaking down, and will soon be replaced by more anti-American hardliners. That’s our major source of oil. Iraq is sitting on top of lots of oil, but Saddam has been negotiating with Russia and China to sell them his oil as soon as the sanctions are lifted. But the alternative groups in Iraq who want to topple Saddam, all swear they will sell the oil to the US if they ever get into power. That’s why Bush (and his big-oil friends) want a ‘regime change’.

I am not sure. I know there are some big-oil and Bush family connections in Iraq (documented in Molly Iven’s co-authored book Shrub), so my friend may be right. But her idea smacks too much of a conspiracy theory, and I take it with a grain of salt.

On another note: Someone on this board once said “I’m sorry, but I have to disagree…” (BaronTx) I don’t think anyone should ever apologize for disagreeing, and I would very much like to hear a considered opinion from someone who supports the possible war with Iraq. Unfortunately, listening to Bush last night did nothing to make me think he is trying to get us into this war for any noble reason. It just sounded like so much spin and half-information to me.
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by Bloodstalker »

In all seriousness, I think it's more a political motivation. After 9/11, the nation came together and united with a spirit of patriotism and Bush's popularity took a rise. It just seems to me like thatgave him the impression that the U.S. would unite that way behind an initiative against Iraq, and that would raise his support rating in conjunction. Why Iraq? We have already fought Iraq with very favorable (for the U.S.) results. So I think he took that as an idication that the risk of an internnational disater would be minimul in terms of winning the war. This coupled with a general sense, at least in some areas, that the first war was left incomplete, and Bush figured he could tap into those feelings to generate a new sense of patriotism similar to after 9/11 for finishing a job that we started but left incomplete( propoganda meant to tap into the "do things right psyche) and he gets renewed support for the next presidential bid. As far as public opinion, I am not all that sure that he has a handle on it. I think he has insulated himself, and is convinced that the public is behind him, thus portraying himself as a man of the American people standing against Congress and the international community for what the people truly want and what is in the people's best interests. Actually, all in all, purely politically speaking, a good job off casting things, except the public ain't buying it.

I hope I said what I wanted to clearly, if it all seems like rambling, well, I'll try to be more clear later. I am not the best in the world at stating my political opinions.
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
On another note: Someone on this board once said “I’m sorry, but I have to disagree…” (BaronTx) I don’t think anyone should ever apologize for disagreeing, and I would very much like to hear a considered opinion from someone who supports the possible war with Iraq.

Well I would chime in here and post something serious (instead of antifungal jokes) but I’ve been burned in debates before and have learned it’s better to keep my mouth shut rather than attempt an ineffectual explanation for my beliefs. I’m a layman, unlike highly knowledgeable folks such as fable, HLD and C Elegans, and I can't properly defend my position. So I won't even try. I'll just answer in the affirmative, yes I support an Iraqi war, but don't expect any further elucidation beyond that. I'm back to my antifungal jokes in other threads. Happy debating. :)
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Post by /-\lastor »

I really think he just takes one of those revolving globes, spins it around and points his finger randomly to determine a country to piss off.
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Post by Bloodstalker »

I doubt it, he'd be afraid he'd hit China :D
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Post by dragon wench »

by Gwally:
On another note: Someone on this board once said “I’m sorry, but I have to disagree…” (BaronTx) I don’t think anyone should ever apologize for disagreeing, and I would very much like to hear a considered opinion from someone who supports the possible war with Iraq.


I agree...when I started this topic I deliberately tried to phrase it so that people who support war in Iraq might respond. A respectful diversity of opinion is important in any forum or debate. :)
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Post by Gruntboy »

Oil eh? If we want it, we can merely take it, so why all the fuss? And you don't think the US isn't going to use up all the Arab oil before it goes to its own stockpiles? Or that 90% of the former Soviet Republics are uncharted for Oil? Really?!

Do you know what MAD is? Do you understand what Nixon did? Bush is appearing so crazy (understandably too) that if he gets even half what he wants off the UN he'll be laughing.

Just don't ask "why?" if youever have jet planes crash into your country's tall buildings though. OK? :)
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Post by Gwalchmai »

@Kayless: I usually avoid these discussions as well, for the same reasons you state. My intelligence and access to facts is dwarfed by many of the other posters here. I’ve also seen people get burned in these discussions. But I hope that we SYMians are slowly learning not to let things get out of hand. We’ve had a few quiet months here, and its been nice.

I’m just tired of hearing nothing but rhetoric from the pro-war establishment. And the media and anti-war establishment aren’t any better. For example, I would have liked to have read the text of Gore’s last two speeches in the paper, but all I see are sound bytes, and partial quotes in opinion columns. I would think that Gore’s stance might be more considered, since he currently isn’t pushing any personal agenda and is considered a fringe element in the Democratic Party. His experience as VP should give him an interesting insight. I don’t know if there is an equivalent person on the Republican side to voice another opinion, but I would like to hear it.
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Originally posted by Gruntboy
Oil eh? If we want it, we can merely take it, so why all the fuss? And you don't think the US isn't going to use up all the Arab oil before it goes to its own stockpiles? Or that 90% of the former Soviet Republics are uncharted for Oil? Really?!
Yes, I've never understood our dependence on Arab oil (and I remember driving in the 70s during the oil crisis). The Russians can now sell it to us, and we have plenty of our own. But as far as the Alaskan oil is concerned, I understand that all of it is sold to France since the oil companies can get twice the profit there than if they were to sell it to the lower 48. For that matter, why don't we just lessen our dependence on oil all together?
Do you know what MAD is? Do you understand what Nixon did? Bush is appearing so crazy (understandably too) that if he gets even half what he wants off the UN he'll be laughing.
Not sure what you mean. Yes, I am aware of several things he did - what specifically? and, President Bush doesn't appear crazy to me, but I'll bet he laughs like a girl. :p
Just don't ask "why?" if you ever have jet planes crash into your country's tall buildings though. OK? :)
So, what do you think the current US policy on Iraq would be if 9/11/01 had never happened?
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by Nightmare »

The economy runs well during war time. Crisis means good economy. That, I think, is the main reason Dubya is pushing for this war. As some of you know, I'm strongly against this US-Iraq war.

In his speach yesterday, he ask what would happen when Iraq got nuclear weapons and blackmailed the world? Well, North Korea is already in a position to do that. Yet, no word on North Korea. Hasn't China been in illegal control of a foreign nation (Tibet) for a long time?

I don't buy any of this democracy, freedom, and peace argument. As I've said before, if the US attacks Iraq, I fail to see which gouvernment is "terrorist".
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Post by Gruntboy »

Nixon - acting crazy, acting aggressive. If your (irrational) opponent believes you are just as irrational, they cannot operate from a position where they predict what you will do.

Current policy - no change as of 9/10.
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