Alignment

Cedden · Post by **Cedden** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:56 am

Can I somehow change my alignment? It seems to be some what lockt.

I am also in serch of a character to play on a LAN with four friends. Any suggestions on multiclasses that have been funny or powerfull for you would be mutch appreciated.

Thanks.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:59 am

Alignment...? There is no alignment. Your actions define what you are.

Cedden · Post by **Cedden** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:07 pm

Yes very true but you would think that wenn a Paladin goes bezerk and killes everyone in targos that he then in response to his bad actions will become a fallen paladin and change alignment to ohhhhh I dont know, Lawful evil perhaps or even caotic evil.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:46 pm

Originally posted by Cedden
Yes very true but you would think that wenn a Paladin goes bezerk and killes everyone in targos that he then in response to his bad actions will become a fallen paladin and change alignment to ohhhhh I dont know, Lawful evil perhaps or even caotic evil.

Are you referring to a specific person?

aberrant80 · Post by **aberrant80** » Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:25 am

for suggestions on a 4-character party, look at the thread title: "Here's My Party.. help?". the idea is to cover all the necessary roles effectively.

as for ur alignment question: no, it doesn't play much of a role aside from paladin or monk related responses. IWD2 is more of a hack-n-slash game, unlike the BG series.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 5:06 pm

Actually alignment is quite important since there are many powerful items that require certain alignment to be used.
For example if you're planing a barb or fight/cleric check out the eqipment pages to see what gear would you like to use - considering it's stats and necessary alignment type.

Cedden · Post by **Cedden** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 3:41 pm

Call me oldfasion if you want but I rather take the game as it comes its more fun that way.

Thank you all that posted in this thread.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:16 pm

Originally posted by Nuke
Actually alignment is quite important since there are many powerful items that require certain alignment to be used.

Personally, I wouldn't call that alignment; I would call it an item tag. Alignment as I see it (and for what little that's worth) is based on an approach to life and the actions that result from it. The Fallout series and Arcanum, for example, let you choose to react to events in a fashion that sides with nominally good forces, evil ones, or just a mix of both that suits your fashion. But when you can create a party of mixed good, neutral, evil, lawful and chaotic characters without any problem, and all their quests are basically good, then the question of alignment is moot.

Aregorn · Post by **Aregorn** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:06 am

Alignment obviously exists in this game and is one important way to restrict the character flexibility keeping game balance. As for the possibility to use certain equipment or to mix certain classes (e.g.: you can not have a Bard taking advantage of the charisma saves by double-classing to a Paladin as Bards can not be lawful good and that is the only alignment accepted by a Paladin). As for your request, there is no way to change the alignment that I know yet, but you can install a mod which eliminates alignment restriction for multiclassing if you want, remembering that this will probably break the game balance, ok? Here the site
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/bgate/iwd2.html
I hope it helps you

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:14 am

Alignment obviously exists in this game...

I'm curious: how? Aside from item tags that restrict use (which can be called anything, really), how is alignment used in IWD2? I honestly don't see it.

Aregorn · Post by **Aregorn** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:43 am

Hey Fable, I just explained it! But you are right it could have been called in a different way. I am really sorry alignment does not work the way you wanted it to be, but for restrictive purposes and game balance at least clearly accomplish its objectives, you have to agree on that (call it class restriction instead of alignment if you like it best, it will just sound less epic).

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 8:29 am

Originally posted by Aregorn
Hey Fable, I just explained it! But you are right it could have been called in a different way. I am really sorry alignment does not work the way you wanted it to be...

Alignment was created in PnP games to define both how societies come into conflict, and social interaction between individuals: a generic chaotic evil society would act in a certain way, a generic lawful evil society in another, etc. A lawful good character and a chaotic evil one might do many things when they meet, but one of them is unlikely to be slapping each other on the back and singing campfire songs.

Alignment defines goals, a view of the world, the filters one uses to process the vast sensory input of the known universe.

Simply putting a programmed "alignment flag" on an item doesn't constitute alignment. Oh, we can call it that; we can call it a pancake flag, or a Diablo flag, or a paladin flag. Renaming it won't change the definition of alignment in RPG games, though, and if we go by that definition, alignment still counts for zip in IWD2.

But you are right it could have been called in a different way.

Yep! I think we're in agreement on that. I prefer to be clear in my choice of words, because when I communicate, I want to give a person a good idea of what I mean. That's why I don't repeat the PR claims of various games when someone asks how a game plays. I can't say IWD2 makes good use--or any real use--of alignment, because there's only one path forward in the game, and that's a single good path. If a player wants to really look into CRPGs that value alignment, I'd suggest the Troika games like Fallout and Arcanum, or Planescape: Torment, which really delved into alignment as a way-of-life. Have you ever tried it?

Aregorn · Post by **Aregorn** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 9:17 am

Nope, never. I do not think though any of the Baldurs gate games were ever Role playing games, were they? I was always more into strategy war games and I like this Black isle series for the challenge with the Dungeon & Dragon system which is quite scientific, hence quite strategic also. Anyway that does not mean I wont give Torment a try, so I can experience what you are saying.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:53 pm

Originally posted by Aregorn
Nope, never. I do not think though any of the Baldurs gate games were ever Role playing games, were they?

Oh, absolutely.

Planescape: Torment in particular has a lot of depth to it. BG2 is more of a non-linear IWD, with party NPCs who have their own agendas. This does a fine job of simulating how characters controlled by a DM might respond in a PnP game--so that two characters with conflicting alignments and/or views of life may actually come to blows and demand that you release one of them from the party; while in another case, two specific characters bond in such a way that if one is killed, the other literally goes beserk on the enemy. Very refreshing.

Aregorn · Post by **Aregorn** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 3:53 am

Sounds good Fable. Now, if I ask you to recommend me only one game which reflects what you are saying, which one will it be? Please think which one you think is the best, so I can taste it as well. Unfortunately I am not able to find Torment available in stock. Thanks

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:39 pm

Originally posted by Aregorn
Unfortunately I am not able to find Torment available in stock.

Planescape: Torment is currently sold in a "Dual Jewel" box that just holds 2 standard-size CD cases. Each case holds 2 CDs. 2 are for Ps:T, and the other 2 are for Soulbringer, a game I have yet to try. The package retails for about $10 here in the US, but copies are becoming scarce on retailers' shelves. There must not be a lot of demand for Ps:T anymore.

@Aregorn, I know you asked fable for his opinion, but I can't resist throwing my 2 cents in. If you play Ps:T, I am confident you will understand fable's comments and wholly agree. I am playing Ps:T now, and I love it--it is quite refreshing. I am one of the many initially turned off by it's Planescape setting, but that setting only adds to the experience when you actually play the game. If you are unsure about trying Ps:T, read the BG vs. Ps:T thread in the Baldur's Gate forum, and specifically look for VonDondu's comments. They are enough to sell anyone on the game, I think.

That said, I think you should start by playing the Baldur's Gate games first--if you haven't already. You say you are accustomed to "strategy war games," and the IwDs followed by the BG games are a lesser departure than the others (esp. Ps:T). I too started with games like Warcraft and Age of Empires (Have you tried Pharoh?). I found the original IwD an easy step into "role playing games," as well as the AD&D world(s), from there.
The one game I would recommend? That would be (the original) Baldur's Gate. After that you can count on getting the sequel.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:42 pm

Originally posted by Aregorn
Sounds good Fable. Now, if I ask you to recommend me only one game which reflects what you are saying, which one will it be? Please think which one you think is the best, so I can taste it as well. Unfortunately I am not able to find Torment available in stock. Thanks

You've already read @Skooter's remarks concerning how to find PS:T, I'm sure. It would be *the* CRPG I'd recommend to anybody looking for something satisfyingly deep and varied. The writing is simply unequaled in any other CRPG I've tried, and I've been playing 'em since the mid 1980s.

Still, if you can't find PS:T, then as Skooter suggests, seek out BG2. It's simulated non-linearity and the interactions of the party NPCs are really a delight.

Aregorn · Post by **Aregorn** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:28 pm

Thanks a lot to both, Fable and Skooter. I have to say I have all the BG series, that's the reason why I bought IWD2. I like the game system and I know it quite well. But I also have to say that these games are far away from Fables claim for what a RPG should be, and I totally agree with him. Even though I am more of a strategic gamer as I have already mentioned, I would really like to try the real RPG, which I did not taste yet. I have just moved to Switzerland, and I do not have a clue of German, then have to buy the games from the UK via Amazon, and unfortunately the game Fable is recommending is out of Stock. Hopefully if I pass through the states I will manage to find a copy (maybe in wal-mart

)
To answer your question Skooter, I have also played warcraft and age of empires, both copies of the original Dune system, but I really do not like it. I quite liked the Sid Meier's system not the best though; Master of Orion was quite good (any moment MO3 is coming out) and a quite promising system, which I liked, is Europa Universalis but even though realistic, so far, it is not too challenging. I am waiting for Hearts of Iron to come out, which uses the same system.
What about The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind? did you try it? it has good reviews and is in stock, but is it good as for RPG or it is not worth it?
Thank you again

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:24 pm

Concerning Planescape: Torment, you're in luck. Click here, and take your pick of new or used.

What about The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind? did you try it? it has good reviews and is in stock, but is it good as for RPG or it is not worth it?

Not if you want a genuine RPG experience. Yes, the world does feel entirely new and distinctive: the 3D engine is pretty remarkable right now. But conversations with NPCs are strictly limited to information and quests, with a lot of word-for-word redundancy in the info. I don't blame Bethesda for this; they had to program thousands of NPCs. Unique dialog and personality went out the window (in all but a few celebrated cases). Still, as an action-based game set in an CRPG-style universe, it's a great deal of fun.

Aregorn · Post by **Aregorn** » Mon Dec 09, 2002 4:10 am

Thanks Fable.