Gandalf vs. Elminster & Aragorn vs. Drizzt

Dúnadan · Post by **Dúnadan** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:16 pm

I know this has probably been done to death, but oh well, here it is again. Who do you think would win these two matches? My bet's on Gandalf dominating Elminster hands down, and Aragorn wiping the floor with Drizzt. What are your opinions?

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President of the World Alliance for the Advancement of Me (W.A.A.M.)

Mielikki · Post by **Mielikki** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:20 pm

who are these gandalf and aragorn ppl?
i m pretty much sure not forgotten realms =]

are they dragonlance?

as a big fan of drizzt, i can admit he can be overmatched, if the opponent is deadly enough (dont kno of this aragorn guy thou, need stats)

speaking of elminster, he is one of the chosen of Mystra, meaning he s immortal to do the duties Mystra put into him.
he has a constitution of 25 and spell progression like 9/9/9/9/9/9/9/9/8.
i dont know of the gandalf guy, but it duz not matter. elminster cannot be killed
=]

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~Goddess Of Forests and all Rangers~

Dúnadan · Post by **Dúnadan** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:27 pm

*Gasp!!* Who are Gandalf and Aragorn?!? *Gasp!!* They are the most famous fantasy literature characters of all time!! They are the children of Tolkien's epic works, the greatest literary genius since...that...guy with...the stuff! I would highly reccomend running out to the library and checking out a copy of the Lord of the Rings, for some of the best reading you will ever experience. I'm rambling...I'd better go quaff some morphine...

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President of the World Alliance for the Advancement of Me (W.A.A.M.)

rapier · Post by **rapier** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:53 pm

Originally posted by Mielikki:
who are these gandalf and aragorn ppl?
i m pretty much sure not forgotten realms =]

are they dragonlance?

*fallsfromchair* Ummm...Hello?! Tolkien...Lord of the Rings?!

Well, to the question...
Elminster vs. Gandalf...Elmister! I mean, how many spells did ya see Gandalf cast in the books?! Around four, none of them really powerful

Drizzt vs. Aragorn...Hmm, I'd say Drizzt, would be easier with the stats of Aragorn, AD&D style...

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Though I can see to the ends of the earth
Still I ramble this treacherous path.
Over my shoulder I glimpse the corpses gathering.
This day I walk the Way of the Beast.

[This message has been edited by rapier (edited 03-28-2001).]

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:10 pm

Oh no...the dread discussion

Tolkien made more believable characters...they don't have spellbooks or levels. They also have more realistic, if still spectacular powers.

Gandalf, despite being an immortal Ishtari, never shows much great power. The single most impressive 'spell' he seems to work is a type of false dawn when rescueing Bilbo from trolls. Even this may not have been a spell at all- he may simply have confused them long enough for dawn to come in it's own time.

Aragorn, while possessing prowess in battle, doesn't seem to possess any magical abilities at all.

I think the best answer is that they are not comparable...Drizzt and Eleminster are overpowered characters from a different world. Remember: the entire fellowship was sent scampering in the face of one Balrog, and Gandalf killed. Drizzt and Elminster would have little trouble with the same creature.

frelic · Post by **frelic** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:20 pm

well, i never read completely through Tolkein's books, but I thought I remember Gandalf being pretty powerful (the white wizard or something). He was, I think, one of those "only wizard of his kind" type things. And I don't know much about Elminster, so its hard to tell.

As for Aragorn, I never had an impression that he was much other than a regular fighter. But then again, I got half way through the "two towers" and stopped (and the movie only did so much).

But a general observation, Tolkein (from what I read) was not very reliant upon magic. It certainly existed, but the majority of actions were by plain blood, sweat and tears. I don't remember Aragorn having an enchanted sword at all. And I think you can count the number of magic swords in the entire trilogy at under 10 (stinger, glamdring, orcrist, others?). So, if you brought the forgotten realms on par with Tolkein, they'd probably end up even matches.

of course (here's the fun), i'd like to see the "other" matches! [G v D & E v A or even G v A & E v A].

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:20 pm

Oh come on, Gandulf unleashes all his might on the Balrog, just because you're not given a spell by spell blow......

I think it's safe to say it'd be a draw, because I think we know who Eliminster and Drizzt are based on..... (wandering busy body wizard who disguises himself, and amazing fighter ranger

)

Who are Gandaulf and Aragorn? LOL, I thought that was a a joke at first

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Quitch, being the Ranger known as Skyhawk, is a proud member of The Brotherhood of the Woods

Kieran_Frost · Post by **Kieran_Frost** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:40 pm

I'd say Gandulf hands down would wip Elminster's ass. I mean, come on, Ganadulf fell down a chasam and still lived and escaped Savelon's (wrong spelling) magical prison, that's pretty powerful. Plus Gandulf had this strange arrogance about him, as if he didn't need to unleash his power, because you could tell just by looking at him, you'd lose.

Kieran_Frost

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"Men who crave power, and recieve it, look back over the mistakes of their lives, pile it all together and call it destiny."

vbarash · Post by **vbarash** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:07 pm

Not to try and be scientific about this, but let's consider for a second:

Gandalf - Ishtari = DEMIGOD
That means: eternal life, can't be touched by normal weapons. The incident with Balrog proves his power rather than detracts from it. Gandalf was fighting another demigod, and even though he "died", he was given immortality back to finish his purpose on MiddleEarth. So, hypothetically, if Gandalf REALLY had a purpose in fighting Elminster, he COULDN'T BE KILLED.
Furthermore, about the spells he casts: aren't you all forgetting how he saves his party TWICE in Moriah. I quote:

"Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly... and then stopped".
Here, Gandalf just killed the roughly fifty orcs trying to get the party. He goes on to explain:

"I could think of nothing but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many..."
"What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible... I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces."

So here we have Gandalf COMMANDING (what? inanimate objects?) and shutting doors just like that. Then:

"At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the brindge before him... The bridge cracked."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's an AD&D spell that DESTROYS MAGICALLY (we're talking dwarves here!) CREATED BRIDGES INSTANTLY.

FINAL POINT: the strength of Gandalf depends on his development in the story. In Hobbit, Gandalf is ready to jump onto some orcs, which "would have led him to certian deaths". In LOTR, he's facing demi-gods. So decide for yourself.

Well, that's it for the rant.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:21 pm

That's a very good rant, vbarash. And for Middle earth, Gandalf is a force to be reckoned with. But would you really compare his ability to close a door or smash a bridge with Fearun's timestop or imprisonment spells...or raise dead.

Don't get me wrong, I much prefer the Gandalf character, but the creatures of Middle Earth were simply not written to be as powerful as those of Fearun.

Now if you drop Gandalf into Atkathla and let him wander around for, what, 30 days? That would be plenty of time for him to 'level up' and gather what equipment he needed to kick Elminster's butt. I guess that may also hint at why the characters are so different: current RPers wan't to see more and more power...characters have been 'super sized' since Tolkiens day.

Robin_Hood · Post by **Robin_Hood** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:24 pm

OK, some facts comin thru right here...there was only one balrog that was killed by a mortal(a humanoid) in the Tolkien-realm(what was the name again...) was the greatest of its kind. Don't remember the name, read Silmarillion if you're interested. He was killed by Écthelion, a noble Noldor-elf who was also the commander of Gondolin, the last of the big elven forts/cities. If I recall correctly. And Écthelion died at the same time: he managed to push the balrog over a ledge, but the creature pulled the elf with him. And Noldor were QUITE POWERFUL COMPARED TO HUMANS at the time this happened. And Gandalf slayed one of these fierce beasts. And do not forget the fact that Gandalf battled Sauron one on one on the top of some hill(could have been the one near Brii(?)...or it might have been somewhere in Rohan)...actually it was Sauron's arm but it contained all of his powers. A fight from a distance

So I would say that Gandalf would beat the hell out of Elminster. He is half-god after all.

I would say that Drizzt would beat Aragorn since he has so many magical gizmos on and a supernatural dexterity. Even if Aragorn had his Narsil-sword re-forged I would still say that Drizzt would win.

Robin Hood

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:47 pm

The name of the Balrog slain by the captain of the guard for Gondolin was Gothmog.

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KensaiRyu, Grand Master of the Saints of the Sword.

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:48 pm

I've read the hobbit and LOTR once, so i'm not all knowing but waverly c'mon...
The (dwarven/other)doors that were magically locked in middle earth were "little" bit different than the ones you see in faerun. You don't just cast knock or let 23 lvl thief to pick the lock of the door, no in middle earth the doors were merely impossible to open without the right magic, words and balrog are "little" bit more dangerous than some pesky tana'rri you meet in the demon realm (this has been mentioned before, still i think it should be mentioned again) Gandalf came back from dead on his own, there wasn't some fellow party member who used rod of resurrection on him or smth like that. Elminster may be powerful, but if Gandalfs powers would be converted to faerun, he'd kick anyone's a$$ so hard you couldn't imagine it.
If we'd put elminster to middle earth, he might be a pretty powerful mage, but he wouldn't stand a chance against Gandalf.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 3:48 pm

Ok, getting away from Gandalf vs Elminster...

If we take Aragorn's MERP stats and use the MERP guidelines for converting to AD&D...(+5 MERP = +1 AD&D, etc.)

(doing this off the top of my head, trying to remember it...)

Aragorn ends up with several stats in the 20's. He is immune to large amounts of magic (something like permanent spell immunity Abjuration and Necromancy excluding beneficial magic).

The fragments of Narsil while broken count as a +5 (maybe +6) shortsword. Reforged into Anduril it is a +12 Hackmaster....er....+10 Longsword with extra fire and ice damage AND slaying effects against a list of about 20 species.

Course, the characters in MERP often seem more powerful than in the books. The Witch King is a MERP level 60 sorcerer -- which would probably convert to about AD&D level 30....and he was turned back at the gates of Minas Tirith by Gandalf.

Most of the power levels in the 3rd age of Middle Earth are very weak compared to what they were in the 1st and 2nd age. Gandalf and the Balrog are holdovers from that time. Consider that Sauron was merely Morgoth's leutenant.

I don't remember Morgoth's stats, but just for grins, his Warhammer would translate into something like: +40, massive bonus lightning damage, requires Str 25 to wield. Then again basically Morgoth = Satan.

As far as Gandalf coming back from the dead himself, that's not quite true. In fact, he was sent back to Middle Earth by Eru (the God -- not just a god -- something that doesn't seem to exist in D&D).

[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 03-28-2001).]

Jon-e-boy · Post by **Jon-e-boy** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 4:30 pm

no contest the galndalf the white rider wouldmop the floor with elminster or anyone for that matter, and who is drizzt, just some drow ranger, to compete with aragorn son of arathorn, last king of the great men???
as i said before no contest, tolkien has managed to create the greatest and most powerful charcaters, two of which are argorn and gandalf, no one in the add world could possibly compete,
anyone who says otherwise, is quite frankly wrong,
and argorn had no enchanted sword? just a regular fighter? elendil flame of the west? the sword thatwas broken.... im not even gonna touch that one, this is the sword that cut the ring from the dark lord finger the first time around, and gandalf? not powerful? after his battle with the balrog he became one of the strongest spellcaster of... ever!!! and if someone believes that drizzt could have taken a blrog out "easily" well... im not familiar with balrogs ion the forgotten realms but if drizzt takes em out easily then they must be different,

final score:
gandalf and aragorn - 10
drizzt and elminster- 0

frelic · Post by **frelic** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 5:27 pm

okay, here's a thought - does anyone ever recall in either the forgotten realms or middle earth written materials (books, etc.)where any character has cast a "time stop" spell?

Its hard for me to see how an author would really handle that. I feel shut out everytime the lich does it. I'd probably toss the book away.

the Elfstone · Post by **the Elfstone** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 6:18 pm

Wow Nighthawk, i've got to give you some props for busting out the old MERP rules. Too bad there isnt a game company w/ that liscense right now, that would make a great CRPG.

"Who's Aragorn?" He's Elessar, "the Elfstone"

vbarash · Post by **vbarash** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 8:39 pm

I realise, waverly, that Gandalf has never been shown stopping time or casting down a minute-long meteor shower on any of his incredible opponents. What one must consider, however:
just because it is aprt of a story, not a stat book, Gandalf's use of magic is more subtle. I actually had to dig up LOTR and look at the passage to find he used something called "word of Command". In most cases, it's just "lightning flashed out from the wizard". Second of all, in Middle Earth like in no other book the concept of restraining one's pride and power is menitoned over and over again. In fact, the prime example of that is Saruman, who DID attemt to use power excessively; but wait, how excessvely??? The chapters on him restraining Gandalf (NOT QUOTING) deal with psychological overbearing and hints of power. No blatant meteor showers. So that's one thing.

My other point is not even really original, but I just wanted to say that some posts made a really good point of bringing up G's enemies. Let's see, now:

Sauron (demigod)
Hundreds and hundreds of orcs throughout the series
Balrog (lesser demigod)
THe Prince of the Nazgul (Sauron's right hand, to start he is a DEATH KNIGHT - I believe there is a special name for classes like this in AD&D III, then he is a hero Death Knight - something around lvl cap or above, CANNOT BE KILLED BY MAN)

Another rant. YAY!!!

TheDude · Post by **TheDude** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:56 am

as a great fan of Tolkien i must say:

Aragorn just kickes drizzt @ss no doubt about it, i think that in 'the lord of the rings' is now cooler char. then Aragorn.(ok from the good guys he's the coolest, can't compare with the Nagzul

)

But Elminster vs Gandalf that's though,
i must agree with rapier u don't see Gandalf cast lots of spells in the books and he get's almost killed by a balrog.
so i think i must be a close battle and (i hate to say it) i think that Elminster is going to win.

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:17 am

Why do you people underestimate the Balrog?
Only dragons are stronger than they are, and Gothmog himself killed 2 elven lords. Of course the Balrog in LOTR wasnt as strong, but nonetheless he was a balrog and was killed by Gandalf.

Gandalf was a demigod, traveled into Saurons place alone, and faced him alone, and even survived the encounter. There is less magic in Tolkien, which is a good thing i think. You claim He cannot die, which might be true, but lok what happened to saruman, his soul left his body, think he was forever trapped, and similar things happened to Melkor and Sauron.

Elminster i do not know a lot about, but Gandalf was maybe the most powerful being there was on middleearth, next to Sauron and Saruman of course.