you guys are probably sick of giving party advice by now...
but your advice has been very helpful so far.
using the info from here and other places, I have assembled the party detailed below:
half-orc ftr4/barbx
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6
main tank, get the 4 levels in fitr first, then progress the rest of the way in barb.
am thinking of using a two-handed axe with this guy to take best advantage of his high str
duergar fighter
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6
second tank, pure fighter, also has some innate abilites which are nice.
am thinking of giving this char a sword and shield, to maximize his ability to take a beating
tiefling roguex/rngr1
Str 14, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 6
almost a pure rogue, I will start as a rogue for the most skill pts, then take the rngr level, the progress the rest of the way as a rogue. she will dual wield and be a sneak attack expert, as well as the party scout and locksmith
likely dual wield with 2 short swords, or one short sword and a dagger (depending on which magical items I use) might also be missle support occasionally
human cleric of Bane
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18
this will be the party talker, that is why the Cha is pumped up to max... I went with a human here for the extra skill pts to invest into teh diplomatic skills. I realize that good aligned clerics might be a little better suited to getting thru the game, but I am going with an evilly aligned party here, with some ECL classes and such... just kind of my own theme. I am thinking of giving him a crossbow for missle support (would 4 levels in ftr be worth it down teh road for weapon specialization in crossbows?) I am wondering if I should reduce the Int score a little since he already gets extra skill pts for being human, and maybe putting them elsewhere, any suggestions?
drow necromancer
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 12
he will be an offensive minded spellcaster... necromancer is to go along with the evil theme of the party, plus I have always like the spells in the necromancy school. He will be the secondary talker for dialogs that need high Int.
I realize that there are 3 ECL char, but I am hoping that will be made up by the challenge rating system, and it will only hurt in the early going... plus I am thinking of only going with this party of 5 to try to offset that ECL penalty a little bit.
any advice for different stat pt placement would be welcomed, but I dont want to poach any scores below 6.
I am also considering adding a 6th char to this party, but am unsure if I want to, and if I do, I am unsure what to add.
I was considering adding a human druid, for the shapeshifting and druid spells down the road, but I dont know if a druid would really fit into this party's evil theme... maybe an outcast druid? or evil druid that uses his ability and spells to manipulate nature instead of working with nature?
the other option was to go with a deep gnome monk. he will be very slow leveling, though, but could turn into a very powerful character later on with his Wis bonus...
anyway, input is welcome, thanks.
more party advice
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Skooter327
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These all look great.Originally posted by Krysalyn
half-orc ftr4/barbx
duergar fighter
tiefling roguex/rngr1
My only question here, is how will you know when to switch from the high Cha speaker to the high Int speaker? IMHO, you are better off choosing on char to use as a speaker. Also, remember that high Int nets more skil points to further pump the speaking skills.Originally posted by Krysalyn
human cleric of Bane
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18
this will be the party talker, that is why the Cha is pumped up to max... I went with a human here for the extra skill pts to invest into teh diplomatic skills.
...I am wondering if I should reduce the Int score a little since he already gets extra skill pts for being human, and maybe putting them elsewhere, any suggestions?
drow necromancer
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 12
.... He will be the secondary talker for dialogs that need high Int.
My advice: Steal a couple attribute points from Str, Dex, & Con on the drow, and add them to Cha to bring that score to 18. The only speech-related skill/attrib./feat you'll be missing is Mercantile Background. You'll then have just 1 speaker, and won't miss dialog options that the other speaker could've picke up.
Re: Re: more party advice
well, I would switch to my drow if I wasnt getting the dialog options I think I should be getting... things like early on translating the dead goblin rantings, helping fix the catapult, and other stuff down teh road like the histachi brew, etc.
(plus I could always use a walkthrough as a guide to see when a char with high Int might get different dialog options...)
but, I see your point about putting them both on the same char...
I was originally planning to use disable device and search with the drow wizard, and I was worried that I would be spreading his skill pts too thin if I tried to pick up some of the caster-related skills as well as the dialog-based skills.
but, the drow does have the +2 Cha bonus... that would allow me to give him Int 20 and Cha 20.
also, the Dreadmaster of Bane has +1 to diplomacy/intimidate/bluff skills, so I thought that would be a natural boost for the dialog-related skills...
if I decide to use the drow for all dialog, I could choose a race other than human for the cleric, then, something like the deep gnome, that has the Wis bonus. but that would make both of my spellcasters with significant ECL penalties...
an interesting suggestion, though, I will consider it.
edit - also what about turning undead for the cleric? (or is it control undead for the evil cleric?) isnt this based on Cha? is this an important ability that serves a useful purpose throughout the game, and worth investing in Cha for?
Originally posted by Skooter327
My only question here, is how will you know when to switch from the high Cha speaker to the high Int speaker? IMHO, you are better off choosing on char to use as a speaker. Also, remember that high Int nets more skil points to further pump the speaking skills.
My advice: Steal a couple attribute points from Str, Dex, & Con on the drow, and add them to Cha to bring that score to 18. The only speech-related skill/attrib./feat you'll be missing is Mercantile Background. You'll then have just 1 speaker, and won't miss dialog options that the other speaker could've picke up.
well, I would switch to my drow if I wasnt getting the dialog options I think I should be getting... things like early on translating the dead goblin rantings, helping fix the catapult, and other stuff down teh road like the histachi brew, etc.
(plus I could always use a walkthrough as a guide to see when a char with high Int might get different dialog options...)
but, I see your point about putting them both on the same char...
I was originally planning to use disable device and search with the drow wizard, and I was worried that I would be spreading his skill pts too thin if I tried to pick up some of the caster-related skills as well as the dialog-based skills.
but, the drow does have the +2 Cha bonus... that would allow me to give him Int 20 and Cha 20.
also, the Dreadmaster of Bane has +1 to diplomacy/intimidate/bluff skills, so I thought that would be a natural boost for the dialog-related skills...
if I decide to use the drow for all dialog, I could choose a race other than human for the cleric, then, something like the deep gnome, that has the Wis bonus. but that would make both of my spellcasters with significant ECL penalties...
an interesting suggestion, though, I will consider it.
edit - also what about turning undead for the cleric? (or is it control undead for the evil cleric?) isnt this based on Cha? is this an important ability that serves a useful purpose throughout the game, and worth investing in Cha for?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Krysalyn
human cleric of Bane
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18
drow necromancer
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 12
You should raise Con. for both: concentration check and fortitude save are important for spellcaster;
choose only one speaker;
the cleric don't need Cha. that high (turn undead is not so important and you already have some conversation bonus) so switch some point from Cha to Int/Con, also Dex could be dropped a little in favor of Int/Con (you can wear plate); if you choose the Wiz as diplomat keep Int to 10 (or even to 8), drop Cha to anything down to 8 (or less if you like min-max) and raise Con. first and then Str. (plates can be heavy and he can sometimes be asked to melee);
For the wizard reduce Str (what do you need it for in a Wiz?) to 8 and raise Con to 16. You have a lot of skill points and with high Int 12 Cha is sufficent for a diplomat; if you choose the priest as diplomat drop Cha to 8 (or less if you like min-max) and raise Dex/Wis.
human cleric of Bane
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18
drow necromancer
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 12
You should raise Con. for both: concentration check and fortitude save are important for spellcaster;
choose only one speaker;
the cleric don't need Cha. that high (turn undead is not so important and you already have some conversation bonus) so switch some point from Cha to Int/Con, also Dex could be dropped a little in favor of Int/Con (you can wear plate); if you choose the Wiz as diplomat keep Int to 10 (or even to 8), drop Cha to anything down to 8 (or less if you like min-max) and raise Con. first and then Str. (plates can be heavy and he can sometimes be asked to melee);
For the wizard reduce Str (what do you need it for in a Wiz?) to 8 and raise Con to 16. You have a lot of skill points and with high Int 12 Cha is sufficent for a diplomat; if you choose the priest as diplomat drop Cha to 8 (or less if you like min-max) and raise Dex/Wis.
Re: Re: more party advice
I had originally planned to keep both of them out of melee... giving the drow a bow, and the cleric a crossbow, most likely.
I figured since the cleric of Bane has the bonuses to conversation skills, that a high Cha would ensure that all dialog options are open... if not, I could then use my wizard as a backup spokesperson, with high Int and decent Cha...
I was worried that the wizard would not have enough skill pts available to max the conversation skills, since I planned to have him invest heavily in knowledge arcana, alchemy, search, and probably spellcraft, maybe diable device... maybe concentration also...
(is concentration important for backrow casters? i.e. if I dont plan for them to engage in melee, can I foget about concentration? or is it necessary because of missle fire and some spells?)
does a char need a really high Cha to open up all dialog options? or is 12-14 enough for conversation?
if I decided to make the wizard the party spokesman, it seems that it would be better to use a different cleric instead of Bane... but I want to stay evil, so I would probably go with Talos or Mask... and then I would probably want to use the cleric as a possible backup melee char...
but... using heavy armor would require me to invest in armored arcana to reduce the % chance of spell failure, correct? that is one reason I had planned to keep the cleric in the back as a caster only... have him wear light armor only and just cast spells... I figured that as the game progressed, he would be casting more spells than engaging in melee, and thus the difference in AC due to armor would not be worth having to invest in armored arcana just to wear plate...
also, I was worried about reducing strength below 10 for the wizard for fear that he would not be able to wear decent gear... I also wanted decent dex for him to use a bow effectively when his spells were worthless or spent, or I wanted to save them.
I was thinking of knocking Cha down to 12 or 14 for the cleric, and putting 2 pts into Int, Dex, and then maybe Con... Int for an additional skill pt, Dex for better crossbow use, and Con for another hit pt a level and better Concentration checks...
the wiz I would probably knock Cha down to 10 or even lower, but I was worried that would affect his speaking ability when I needed his high Int for some conversation paths...
so... in summary, I am still undecided.
Originally posted by lompo
Originally posted by Krysalyn
human cleric of Bane
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18
drow necromancer
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 12
You should raise Con. for both: concentration check and fortitude save are important for spellcaster;
choose only one speaker;
the cleric don't need Cha. that high (turn undead is not so important and you already have some conversation bonus) so switch some point from Cha to Int/Con, also Dex could be dropped a little in favor of Int/Con (you can wear plate); if you choose the Wiz as diplomat keep Int to 10 (or even to 8), drop Cha to anything down to 8 (or less if you like min-max) and raise Con. first and then Str. (plates can be heavy and he can sometimes be asked to melee);
For the wizard reduce Str (what do you need it for in a Wiz?) to 8 and raise Con to 16. You have a lot of skill points and with high Int 12 Cha is sufficent for a diplomat; if you choose the priest as diplomat drop Cha to 8 (or less if you like min-max) and raise Dex/Wis.
I had originally planned to keep both of them out of melee... giving the drow a bow, and the cleric a crossbow, most likely.
I figured since the cleric of Bane has the bonuses to conversation skills, that a high Cha would ensure that all dialog options are open... if not, I could then use my wizard as a backup spokesperson, with high Int and decent Cha...
I was worried that the wizard would not have enough skill pts available to max the conversation skills, since I planned to have him invest heavily in knowledge arcana, alchemy, search, and probably spellcraft, maybe diable device... maybe concentration also...
(is concentration important for backrow casters? i.e. if I dont plan for them to engage in melee, can I foget about concentration? or is it necessary because of missle fire and some spells?)
does a char need a really high Cha to open up all dialog options? or is 12-14 enough for conversation?
if I decided to make the wizard the party spokesman, it seems that it would be better to use a different cleric instead of Bane... but I want to stay evil, so I would probably go with Talos or Mask... and then I would probably want to use the cleric as a possible backup melee char...
but... using heavy armor would require me to invest in armored arcana to reduce the % chance of spell failure, correct? that is one reason I had planned to keep the cleric in the back as a caster only... have him wear light armor only and just cast spells... I figured that as the game progressed, he would be casting more spells than engaging in melee, and thus the difference in AC due to armor would not be worth having to invest in armored arcana just to wear plate...
also, I was worried about reducing strength below 10 for the wizard for fear that he would not be able to wear decent gear... I also wanted decent dex for him to use a bow effectively when his spells were worthless or spent, or I wanted to save them.
I was thinking of knocking Cha down to 12 or 14 for the cleric, and putting 2 pts into Int, Dex, and then maybe Con... Int for an additional skill pt, Dex for better crossbow use, and Con for another hit pt a level and better Concentration checks...
the wiz I would probably knock Cha down to 10 or even lower, but I was worried that would affect his speaking ability when I needed his high Int for some conversation paths...
so... in summary, I am still undecided.
but... using heavy armor would require me to invest in armored arcana to reduce the % chance of spell failure, correct?
Clerics magic is not arcane based - therefore they suffer no penalties when casting spells with armor - in fact they receive heavy and medium armor as free feats.
Clerics make excellent support tanks due to their good base attack and armor - combined with their buffing spells.
also, I was worried about reducing strength below 10 for the wizard for fear that he would not be able to wear decent gear...
Your wizard won't need to carry anything heavy - potions and scrolls are very light. Take strength down to 8 and you won't regret it.
I was thinking of knocking Cha down to 12 or 14 for the cleric, and putting 2 pts into Int, Dex, and then maybe Con... Int for an additional skill pt, Dex for better crossbow use, and Con for another hit pt a level and better Concentration checks...
It depends how you are going to use your cleric - a tank cleric does not need int - the extra skill points are nice - but the cleric has very little need for skills - I raise concentration almost exclusively for my cleric - and I don't need the extra skill points - so my tank/buffer cleric has 10 int - he is not a rogue after all.
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Re: Re: Re: more party advice
--[I was worried that the wizard would not have enough skill pts available to max the conversation skills, since I planned to have him invest heavily in knowledge arcana, alchemy, search, and probably spellcraft, maybe diable device... maybe concentration also...
(is concentration important for backrow casters? i.e. if I dont plan for them to engage in melee, can I foget about concentration? or is it necessary because of missle fire and some spells?)]--
Use your rogue/ranger for search and disable device; focus your Wiz. with Know.arc., alchemy, spellcraft (mainly till you can choose the elemental feats) and concentration (very important against missile and damaging spell), so you have 1-2 skill points left every lev. up to spent in diplomatic skills (due to your high Int.).
--[does a char need a really high Cha to open up all dialog options? or is 12-14 enough for conversation?]--
I think 14 should be enough
--[I was worried that the wizard would not have enough skill pts available to max the conversation skills, since I planned to have him invest heavily in knowledge arcana, alchemy, search, and probably spellcraft, maybe diable device... maybe concentration also...
(is concentration important for backrow casters? i.e. if I dont plan for them to engage in melee, can I foget about concentration? or is it necessary because of missle fire and some spells?)]--
Use your rogue/ranger for search and disable device; focus your Wiz. with Know.arc., alchemy, spellcraft (mainly till you can choose the elemental feats) and concentration (very important against missile and damaging spell), so you have 1-2 skill points left every lev. up to spent in diplomatic skills (due to your high Int.).
--[does a char need a really high Cha to open up all dialog options? or is 12-14 enough for conversation?]--
I think 14 should be enough
Regarding your missile supporter in the group, it should be your rogue (with 20+ dex he will have good BAB).
The cleric with the low dex and the wizard with low BAB progression wan't be as good and mainly they will be busy on casting spells.
The cleric will be need to tank and melee mainly at the beginning, once you have animate dead (at lev. 5) you will have plenty of fighters (the undead are great!), so you can choose whatever cleric you like (all have good points): Bane for mind dominating spells or Talos for elemental damaging spells are good, decide depending which fit better with your Wiz. and with your style of playing.
Remember that once you have animate dead you'll have plenty of tankers, so you can consider to transform one of your main tank in something different: how about a Barb/druid for extra spellcasting with some melee capability?
Remember that the best tank of the game are your summons (and undead are the best), and the most damage dealer are the spellcaster.
The cleric with the low dex and the wizard with low BAB progression wan't be as good and mainly they will be busy on casting spells.
The cleric will be need to tank and melee mainly at the beginning, once you have animate dead (at lev. 5) you will have plenty of fighters (the undead are great!), so you can choose whatever cleric you like (all have good points): Bane for mind dominating spells or Talos for elemental damaging spells are good, decide depending which fit better with your Wiz. and with your style of playing.
Remember that once you have animate dead you'll have plenty of tankers, so you can consider to transform one of your main tank in something different: how about a Barb/druid for extra spellcasting with some melee capability?
Remember that the best tank of the game are your summons (and undead are the best), and the most damage dealer are the spellcaster.
hmmmm, bow about this, then:
human (or maybe deep gnome, but stats would be mildly different) cleric of Talos
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 6
ok, now he is a damage-dealing cleric, that can also tank. should I reduce his Int and add pts to Str/Con instead? he will invest in Con only, probably, so perhaps the Int isnt needed? though I was considering spellcraft so that he could invest in the elemental dmg feats.
(deep gnome would be: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 20, Cha 6 or should I make Str 14 and Con 16?) I would be concerned that my two casters are ECL races, though...
drow necromancer
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14
he is now the party talker... do I need to add more to Cha? should I take away any pts from Dex or Con? with primarily necromancy spells, will this guy need to invest in spellcraft to get the elemental dmg feats? that would leave only alchemy, knowledge arcana, concentration, and dialog skills to invest in.
human (or maybe deep gnome, but stats would be mildly different) cleric of Talos
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 6
ok, now he is a damage-dealing cleric, that can also tank. should I reduce his Int and add pts to Str/Con instead? he will invest in Con only, probably, so perhaps the Int isnt needed? though I was considering spellcraft so that he could invest in the elemental dmg feats.
(deep gnome would be: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 20, Cha 6 or should I make Str 14 and Con 16?) I would be concerned that my two casters are ECL races, though...
drow necromancer
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14
he is now the party talker... do I need to add more to Cha? should I take away any pts from Dex or Con? with primarily necromancy spells, will this guy need to invest in spellcraft to get the elemental dmg feats? that would leave only alchemy, knowledge arcana, concentration, and dialog skills to invest in.
Originally posted by Krysalyn
hmmmm, bow about this, then:
human (or maybe deep gnome, but stats would be mildly different) cleric of Talos
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 6
(deep gnome would be: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 20, Cha 6 or should I make Str 14 and Con 16?) I would be concerned that my two casters are ECL races, though...
drow necromancer
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14
I would suggest not to have two ECl char. (with eavy penalties) as your main spelcasters, so choose the human cleric; as for his stats drop Int. (being human you get two skill point with any lev of Int.), I suggest to 10-8 (I don't like min-max), and put the points in Con.; the 2 skill points are for concentration-spellcraft (for the elemental feat).
Regarding the Wiz., drop Str. to 8 (or even 6) and raise Con.;
with 20 Int. you get 6 skill points: concentration, Knowledge arcana, alchemy and the rest for the diplomatic skills, after having spend 5 points in spellcraft to raise it to 10 value to always have the option to choose and elemental feat.