Question about rogues!

Eldaran Celuril · Post by **Eldaran Celuril** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:34 pm

~I was doing some researching on the forums for an answer to my questions - I apologize if they have already been answered!~

For a fun change of pace, I'm going to *attempt* to solo a rogue multiclass. I'm definitely leaning towards the ranger [1] / barbarian [1] / rogue [x]. Actually, not leaning towards, I've already made up my mind on this one, heh!

My two questions are as follows ...

1. What is the best race for this multi?

I personally find something like a drow appealing for both the dex bonus, and the spell resistance, which would be invaluable in a solo game. However, I'm pretty certain that this character would receive and experience penalty .. 40% If I'm correct? That penalty isn't too bad, and I'm prepared for it. However, if someone knows of a race which is very effective, and has no experience penalties, I'd be very glad to know of it!

2. Do clubs work with weapon finesse?

Clubs are - in my opinion - light weapons, and definitely heavily associated with rogues. As such, it would seem somewhat sensible for them to work with weapon finesse - I've held a real shortsword before on a trip to Europe, and it was definitely heavier than a club. There seem to be an abundance of awesome clubs in this game, and I was looking forward to the rangers free dual wielding, and utilizing two clubs! However, if Weapon Finesse doesn't work with clubs, I suppose I'd be better off using shortswords.

Oh, and just wanted to say this: I've been reading these boards forever, and I've been very impressed with every - well, almost every - member! Glad to be aboard guys.

EDIT: Hmm, maybe not so set on the ranger/barb/rogue after all! After some thinking, I'm wondering if a Fighter [4] for weapon specialization would be better than the barb level?

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:48 am

Originally posted by Eldaran Celuril
~I was doing some researching on the forums for an answer to my questions - I apologize if they have already been answered!~

For a fun change of pace, I'm going to *attempt* to solo a rogue multiclass. I'm definitely leaning towards the ranger [1] / barbarian [1] / rogue [x]. Actually, not leaning towards, I've already made up my mind on this one, heh!

My two questions are as follows ...

1. What is the best race for this multi?

2. Do clubs work with weapon finesse?

EDIT: Hmm, maybe not so set on the ranger/barb/rogue after all! After some thinking, I'm wondering if a Fighter [4] for weapon specialization would be better than the barb level?

Try the following combo if you like a rogue based char.:
ranger1/barb.1/fighter2/bard1-2/rogueX
the reason is that ranger and barb. fit well with rogue and have nice bonuses, 2 lev of fighter means 2 feats and the bard lev. gives you acces to bard items (and a song).
Going alone you can mix in a lot of classes without losing the rogue abilities and allowing the reach of the high rogue abilities; weapon spec. is not a must!

For n°1: go with a tiefling, in alternative a halfling or human.
For n°2: no, only small blades work with W.F., but as long as your lev. grows your BAB will be high enough to sustain the loss for TWF with bigger weapons like long swords, axes and maces, and that is another good reason for not taking W.Spec., so you will not be bound to only one type of weapon.

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:19 am

a solo melee character will be very difficult if not impossible to beat the game with.

there are too many battles where your character would get surrounded and killed, since you will have no AoE spells, summon spells, and/or charm/dominate monster spells

two's diary of his solo Bard is a good example of what the battles are like solo, and what it takes to get thru them.

a solo cleric could be done, perhaps Bane due to the dialogue skill bonuses, dominate spells, and summons

a solo druid could perhaps also be done because of shapeshifting ability early, AoE spells, and summons

a solo sorc has been done numerous times...

a rogue/wizard might also be possible

I plan to try a cleric/druid someday (probably deep gnome) and see what that is like...

but, imho, you will need some sort of strong spellcasting ability to solo the game.

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:29 am

1. congratulations for your registeration...
2. i think the best race for this MC char is one of the halflings...
3. you should take ranger/barb/rogue if you ask me

Eldaran Celuril · Post by **Eldaran Celuril** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:34 pm

Re: Re: Question about rogues!

Originally posted by lompo
Try the following combo if you like a rogue based char.:
ranger1/barb.1/fighter2/bard1-2/rogueX
the reason is that ranger and barb. fit well with rogue and have nice bonuses, 2 lev of fighter means 2 feats and the bard lev. gives you acces to bard items (and a song).
Going alone you can mix in a lot of classes without losing the rogue abilities and allowing the reach of the high rogue abilities; weapon spec. is not a must!

For n°1: go with a tiefling, in alternative a halfling or human.
For n°2: no, only small blades work with W.F., but as long as your lev. grows your BAB will be high enough to sustain the loss for TWF with bigger weapons like long swords, axes and maces, and that is another good reason for not taking W.Spec., so you will not be bound to only one type of weapon.

Whether or not the game is possible with a solo "melee" character wasn't one of my questions. If people didn't try things when others told them they were impossible, where would we be as a species today?

Oh, and note the "melee" - I put the quotes to imply that a rogue is much more than just a melee character. By utilizing his stealth abilities, I will be able to avoid some large battles. I believe I have sufficient intelligent and creative problem solving skills to deal with those which are compulsory.

Lonely Wolf and Lompo: Thanks for the answers guys! Too bad that clubs don't work with Weapon Finesse, hehe! I'm definitely taking the ranger/barb/rogue now, and I'm going to try and choose between a Tiefling or one of the halfling races.

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:45 pm

Re: Re: Re: Question about rogues!

Originally posted by Eldaran Celuril
Whether or not the game is possible with a solo "melee" character wasn't one of my questions. If people didn't try things when others told them they were impossible, where would we be as a species today?

Oh, and note the "melee" - I put the quotes to imply that a rogue is much more than just a melee character. By utilizing his stealth abilities, I will be able to avoid some large battles. I believe I have sufficient intelligent and creative problem solving skills to deal with those which are compulsory.

Lonely Wolf and Lompo: Thanks for the answers guys! Too bad that clubs don't work with Weapon Finesse, hehe! I'm definitely taking the ranger/barb/rogue now, and I'm going to try and choose between a Tiefling or one of the halfling races.

comparing daring challenges in a computer game to the advancement of the human species is ridiculous at best.

"melee" is the only way your character is going to get through the battles, without spells, plain and simple.

yes, you can certainly avoid many of the battles by sneaking through the game... but there are also many other places in the game where the only possible advancement of the storyline is through force, where your character is going to have a very difficult time.

your best option then will be to hide/use invisibility to sneak into the crowd, then backstab the biggest threat and hope to finish that threat off very quickly, before you get mobbed by the rest of the group... after that, you will likely have to do a lot of running, possibly using ranged attacks (I would suggest a bow) and/or hiding and sneaking back into the pack and sneak attacking again... rinse and repeat.

I am in no way trying to discourage you from attempting this, I just wanted to be sure that you were aware of how difficult and tedious it might become.

as for your build, I woudl think that these are your best options:

Tiefling/lightfoot halfling - rogue X/rngr 1/barb 1 (favored class rogue)
Half-Orc - rogue 2/rngr 1/barb x (maybe even rogue2/rngr1/ftr2/barbx) (favored class barbarian)
Duergar - rogue2/rngr1/ftr x (or rogue2/rngr1/barb2/ftrX) (favored class fighter)
Drow/svirfneblin - rogue/barb or rngr/rogue or ftr/rogue (since favored class is not rogue/fighter/barbarian)

I do not know how you plan to attack/progress through the game, and/or how much you want to role-play or powergame, thus I cannot comment on specific stats...

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:04 am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about rogues!

Originally posted by Krysalyn

"melee" is the only way your character is going to get through the battles, without spells, plain and simple.

as for your build, I woudl think that these are your best options:

Tiefling/lightfoot halfling - rogue X/rngr 1/barb 1 (favored class rogue)
Half-Orc - rogue 2/rngr 1/barb x (maybe even rogue2/rngr1/ftr2/barbx) (favored class barbarian)
Duergar - rogue2/rngr1/ftr x (or rogue2/rngr1/barb2/ftrX) (favored class fighter)
Drow/svirfneblin - rogue/barb or rngr/rogue or ftr/rogue (since favored class is not rogue/fighter/barbarian)

That is why I suggested to take one lev. of Bard, because some bard specific items can give the char. some casting-like abilities (summoning, charming etc.)

I don't favour the 1/2orc solution, you need a dex. based char, with hp and some Int. for skills, you can't drop Wis below 10 (and being alone I would keep it higher for avoiding dominating spells), so you'll not be able to benefit the strenght bonus of the race, and that is his only adv.; because you want a rogue based char. you need the max. dex. possible, so Tiefling or halfling (or elf, drow better, but rogue is not favoured class so pay attention on multiclass), are the best choices; remember that humans get extra skill points, that means that you can save 2 points in int. for benefit to other abilities.

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 7:38 am

Originally posted by Eldaran Celuril
EDIT: Hmm, maybe not so set on the ranger/barb/rogue after all! After some thinking, I'm wondering if a Fighter [4] for weapon specialization would be better than the barb level?

in regards to this, imho, taking 4 levels of fighter is not worth it, if all you are taking them for is weapon specialization...

weapon specialization only adds two pts of damage to your selected weapon... getting weapon specialization in two weapons will open up maximized attacks, but I think that is a feat that is not worth the cost as well.

one level of barb will give you 1-12 hit points, faster movement, and the ability to rage + 3 rogue levels will give you another 1d6 of sneak attack damage, and get you closer to the rogue-specific feats...

4 levels of fighter will give you slightly more hit points than barb1/rog3, and make weapon specialization available, and you will get a couple extra feats to use

so it is really up to you...

one level of ranger is nice for the free ambidexd and dual wield, but if you take 4 levels of fighter as well, you will be forced to take an additional 2 levels of ranger to keep them within one level of each other to avoid the exp penalty... something to keep in mind.

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 10:33 am

weapon specialization

why is weapon specialization so good and what does it do?

Eldaran Celuril · Post by **Eldaran Celuril** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:55 pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about rogues!

Originally posted by Krysalyn
comparing daring challenges in a computer game to the advancement of the human species is ridiculous at best.

Hah, that's a very - in my opinion - ignorant statement. First off, I wasn't comparing "daring challenges in a computer game to the advancement of the human species." I was simply stating that I can do what I set my mind too, as has been displayed for thousands of years by other people over the course of mankinds history.

Secondly, computer games, books, and other such things have drawn strong comparison with society, human evolution, and forms of government. Take a look at Microcosms for example - comparing somethign - computer games and novels have been used - to a larger system, be it form of government, or the advancement of the human species.

But again, back to my first point, seeing that I wasn't comparing Icewind Dale's challenges to human evolution, your point is completely invalid and out of context.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
"melee" is the only way your character is going to get through the battles, without spells, plain and simple.

yes, you can certainly avoid many of the battles by sneaking through the game... but there are also many other places in the game where the only possible advancement of the storyline is through force, where your character is going to have a very difficult time.

"Yes, you can certainly avoid many of the battles by sneaking through the game" - I thought you said that "melee" was the only way I could get through them, without spells, plain and simple? Nice contradiction.

As to "there are many other places in the game where the only possible advancement of the storyline is through force" - Yes, I realize that as I stated in my second post ...

Originally posted by Eldaran Celuril
I believe I have sufficient intelligent and creative problem solving skills to deal with those which are compulsory.

Thank you bud, you can regurgitate what I said .. I'm impressed!

I realize that you aren't trying to discourage me .. and I apoligize for coming across as an ******* here - I'm an arguer by nature, heh!

As to what I'm going to do for my character, I'm thinking that I'm going to run with the barb/ranger/rogue, though I might incorporate a casting class in there as well for some summons. Should be a fun game!

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:07 pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about rogues!

Originally posted by Eldaran Celuril
"Yes, you can certainly avoid many of the battles by sneaking through the game" - I thought you said that "melee" was the only way I could get through them, without spells, plain and simple? Nice contradiction.

melee is the only way that you can get through the *battles* without spells... avoiding a battle implies that no battle has taken place, does it not? contradiction, I dont think so, if you actually comprehend what I wrote. we can twist each other's words all day if you like.

your character has no spellcasting ability. therefore, the only way to complete an actual battle is via melee. again, you can sneak around and avoid some of the battles, but not all of them. the ones you cannot avoid you will have to complete via melee.

avoiding many of the battles will result in your exp being lower as well, which means your hit points will be lower, and your damage will likely be lower, something else to keep in mind.

Originally posted by Eldaran Celuril

As to what I'm going to do for my character, I'm thinking that I'm going to run with the barb/ranger/rogue, though I might incorporate a casting class in there as well for some summons. Should be a fun game!

I think that you should avoid the casting class and tell us how it goes sneaking/meleeing through the game.

I have a party of 3 planned that will melee only, but havent started them yet, it will be interesting to see how a solo melee char performs.

Eldaran Celuril · Post by **Eldaran Celuril** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:16 pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about rogues!

Originally posted by Krysalyn
melee is the only way that you can get through the *battles* without spells... avoiding a battle implies that no battle has taken place, does it not? contradiction, I dont think so, if you actually comprehend what I wrote. we can twist each other's words all day if you like.

your character has no spellcasting ability. therefore, the only way to complete an actual battle is via melee. again, you can sneak around and avoid some of the battles, but not all of them. the ones you cannot avoid you will have to complete via melee.

avoiding many of the battles will result in your exp being lower as well, which means your hit points will be lower, and your damage will likely be lower, something else to keep in mind.

I think that you should avoid the casting class and tell us how it goes sneaking/meleeing through the game.

I have a party of 3 planned that will melee only, but havent started them yet, it will be interesting to see how a solo melee char performs.

*Sigh* ... An arguement about semantics .. Here we go!

"melee is the only way that you can get through the *battles*"

The fact remains that there was potential for battle, and in my eyes, avoiding such a battle counts as a valid method of getting through a battle in my eyes. You're still *getting through* the battle, just not using conventional methods.

By your definition, we could argue this: A solo sorcerer comes across a band of four goblins. He casts a fireball, immolating them all instantly. All that is left is sifting piles of ash - this occurence was a massacre - so by your definition, a battle never took place?

Oh, and sneaking/meleeing through the game should be fun, and I'm looking forward to the challenge.

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:26 pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question about rogues!

Originally posted by Eldaran Celuril
Sneaking/meleeing through the game should be fun, and I'm looking forward to the challenge.

I agree.

and I am looking forward to hearing about it.

it would be great, imho, if you would start a thread similar to the one "two" started detailing your progress through the game... how you got through each area, etc. it would not only be entertaining, but informative as well for others who wanted to play a party without spellcasters.

as I said, I have a party planned to try this very thing, just not solo, but havent had time to start it yet...

and in no way trying to hijack your thread, but I had planned:

duergar barbarian
drow rogue
deep gnome monk

I decided on these races so that they all have a means to sneak into battle (invisibility for the duergar and the svirfneblin, hide and move silently for the drow rogue) to possibly offset the difficulty of no spellcasting, and also for their innate spell resistance (drow and svirfneblin) or saving throw bonuses (duergar).

I am thinking that a lot of the battles the party can sneak into the pack of monsters undetected and then start attacking, hopefully eliminating the biggest threat asap and then duking it out with the rest of the pack. and/or they could each use ranged weapons a lot of the time and try to take out quite a few of the mobs before engaging in melee...

I would see a similar path for your solo rogue... i.e. sneaking by some mobs, and others that are unavoidable using either hit and run tactics with a bow, or possibly sneaking into the pack, sneak attacking the biggest threat, and then running away, possibly rehiding, etc.

the only other thing I had considered was possibly investing in "use magic device" for one of the characters so that they could use some of the sorc/wiz specific items, like wands, to cast spells... that would be breaking from the melee-only aspect of the party, but it is a consideration.

Eldaran Celuril · Post by **Eldaran Celuril** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:58 pm

Hehe, Krys, don't worry .. You're free to post your party here as well!

And I read Two's posts, and highly enjoyed them .. I think it'd be great fun to create something like that of my own! As soon as I get the time - maybe even tonight - I can start up on this character, hehe.

Btw - Your 3 man party is looking amazing and well thought out .. should be fairly powerful and fun!