multiclassing advices...

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:26 am

i started a new game because i wanted to multiclass my charecters, i hated my sorcerer (so i created a wizard and a bard now), and because i had a bad combination of races.
this is my new party (all are LVL 1):
a half-elven bard neutral good.
an aasimar paladin of mystra lawful good (duh...).
a halfling rogue chaotic good.
a human cleric (silverstar of selune) chaotic good.
a moon-elven wizard (just wizard- not abjurer etc...) neutral good.
a gold-dwarven fighter lawful good.

i was thinking about few things:
1. multiclass the rogue to ranger at the next level.
2. multiclass the rogue when he is rogue3/ranger2 to a rogue3/ranger2/barb1.

any other suggestions abot multiclassing will be accepted.
if you want to change something about multiclassing my rogue- say it!
if you have suggestions about the party at all- also answer!

thank's everybody!

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:54 am

Originally posted by lonely wolf
i started a new game because i wanted to multiclass my charecters, i hated my sorcerer (so i created a wizard and a bard now), and because i had a bad combination of races.
this is my new party (all are LVL 1):
a half-elven bard neutral good.
an aasimar paladin of mystra lawful good (duh...).
a halfling rogue chaotic good.
a human cleric (silverstar of selune) chaotic good.
a moon-elven wizard (just wizard- not abjurer etc...) neutral good.
a gold-dwarven fighter lawful good.

i was thinking about few things:
1. multiclass the rogue to ranger at the next level.
2. multiclass the rogue when he is rogue3/ranger2 to a rogue3/ranger2/barb1.

1)Sorcerers are very powerful, much more than bards: they use Char. as main abilities, so they can be your diplomat as well, plus they are terrific spellcaster compared to bard that are quite weak, and having also a rogue the benefit of a bard is very low, so my first suggestion is to keep the sorcerer and drop the bard, in any case a human bard is better (more skill points means less points to Int. and more to something else, plus extra feat);
2)Why you choose the paladin of Mystra? aren't you going to multi to wizard? Best option is Helm for the fighter levels if you want a tank.
3)For the rogue the second lev of ranger is a waste, go for a lev of barbarian and two lev. of fighter (rogueX/rang1/barb1/fight2); optionally if you dropped your bard get a lev. of bard to for the use of bardic equipement (rogueX/rang1/barb1/fight2/bard1).
Hope I helped.

Mondrin · Post by **Mondrin** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:41 am

I wouldn't recommend getting more than 2 classes unless the game doesn't account for the 20% XP penalty.

What to multiclass the thief with depends on what you want to do with the thief. If you want to use two weapon fighting then the ranger is a good choice. If you don't, the ranger is a waste.

I wanted my thief to be my archer so I got fighter levels. You get a lot of extra feats this way to customize the character as you want. I also use my thief as the leader. The thief levels give me diplomacy and bluff while the fighter levels give me intimidate. Since fighters have no other class skills you can just toss the rest into your thieving skills to keep them up.

smass · Post by **smass** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:51 pm

I wouldn't recommend getting more than 2 classes unless the game doesn't account for the 20% XP penalty.

Just a clarification - the xp penalty only applies if you have a class that is more than one level more than another class - however this excludes favored classes.

ie: A halfling Rogue X/Ranger 2/ Barb 1 - would not have any penalties. The Rogue is the favored class for halflings - therefore doesn't count towards penalties - and the Barb and Ranger classes are not more than 1 level apart.

If any of you have more questions on multiclassing - check out Kayless' Multiclassing Guide - its a sticky at the top of this forum and answers about any question you could possibly have on the subject.

Mondrin · Post by **Mondrin** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:57 pm

Sorry, Smass is correct. I failed to mention that rule.

I still prefer to keep things a little simpler than that. Being that I like to get more than 1 level in my other classes it gets tough having to balance the other class levels out. Such as wanted 4 levels of fighter. You'd have to waster quite a few levels to get the barbarian/ranger levels up.

But it's all a matter of style and experimentation really. You can make most things work if you try at it.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:10 am

Mondrin you are right when you say that everything depends on your style of playng, but I found more effective the rogueX/rang1/barb1/fight2 built than a rogueX/fighter4 (I tried both the combo and actually the rogue/fighter was in my first group) and I'll explain:
in both case you have the same number of rogue levels, but in the first built you get more effective skill points (due to the ranger); the first built gets more feats: actually the gets one extra feats for the fourth lev. of fighter, that you will spent on WS, but you will miss the total ambidexterity of ranger (worth two feats), the extra speed of barb. (same effect as dash), plus the rage ability, the racial enemy and 2 extra hp from barb. So in the end the first build will only miss two points of damage on your favourite weapon, but has a lot of extra advantages.
But as I said before all depends on personal style.

Back to the first question, I would also drop one of the two tank in favour of a divine spellcaster: drop the dwarf fighter for a dwarf cleric of tempus, or drop the paladin for a LG cleric of Lethander (which you can multiclass with one lev. of Pal once you get Holy avenger).
You don't need many pure fighters in the group (and the rogue /cleric of tempus are good fighters/tanks) because you can summon as many as you like (undeads rule!!!), while you can't summon spellcasters.

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:02 am

thank's guys, but i allready started to play, and that's my kind of gameplay.
do you have more advices for multiclassing my existing party?

@lompo- i didn't take a sorcerer because i hate those!

thank's anyways

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 10:00 am

I find the ftr4/barbX to be wery effective, especially for a dwarf, but your dwarf is lawful good, thus no barb levels there. another combo that looks good on paper, though i haen't tried it, might be a pal1-2/monkX, thus getting the most of the Cha bonus on saves, as well as almost total negative-effects (fear,charm,confusion) protection very early. the assimar is probably one of the only races that has enough ability points to spread for this. try this, tell me how it goes.

another combo I use quite effectively is bard1/wizardX. your half-elf might be eligable for this, if he has a high enough Int. if not, maybe a bard1/sorcX. or maybe take a bard level with your wizard. i use this build for the low-level bardsong(s), thus saving spells for the tougher fights.

my 2c

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 10:16 am

that paladin/monk idea sounds great, i'll try it.
thank's- i'll report you how it goes later (when my paladin is advancing a LVL).

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:08 am

I don't think pal/monk is a great combo, because the most important abilities for the classes are quite different:
for Pal you want hig. str., con and char; while for the monk you need dex., con and wis (for the high ac); thus that built will have to spread the ability points too much to get the real benefit of the different classes;
The best option for your pal., if you want to multiclass him is with fighter, either pal3/fightX or fight4/palX.

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:00 am

@ lompo: not that pal3/ftrX or ftr4/palX dont earn their money. but:

as i said, i haven't tried it yet, but on paper pal2/mnk makes a great combo. it just won't be the "prototype" full-plate-and-packing-steel paladin. just examine the following char:

assimar pal2/mnkX

str 14
dex 14
con 14
int 6
wis 14
cha 18

(or some more min-maxing to your liking)

start as a paladin, multiclas after level 2.

at char level 3(!!!), this char will have evasion, backed by the paladine save bonuses, which can be enhanced by cha-buffing items and spells

he will be imune to fear as a level 2 pal, and to confusion via the early-available (and cheap) belt, and to charm via his Protection from Evil, or some item.

later in the game, he will become a lot more powerful, just think about this:

monk spell resistance + Holy Avenger spell resistance + great saves across the table + cha bonus to saves + GREATER evasion = put him into a group of enemies and start hurling fireballs... that's just standing there, not fighting...

oh, and that is without the elemental resistancies...
quivering palm+smite evil...
2*lay on hands, which may be backed by cha even for the monk ability, this remains to be checked...

did i miss anything?

not too shabby, eh?

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:15 am

o.k. guys.
i started a brand new party with almost all of your advices.
i'm hoping the party will advance good

thank's for the help...

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:49 pm

Originally posted by lompo
I don't think pal/monk is a great combo, because the most important abilities for the classes are quite different:
for Pal you want hig. str., con and char; while for the monk you need dex., con and wis (for the high ac); thus that built will have to spread the ability points too much to get the real benefit of the different classes;
The best option for your pal., if you want to multiclass him is with fighter, either pal3/fightX or fight4/palX.

Not exactly. SR does NOT stack. Only the highest bonus counts.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:38 am

Originally posted by Mirk
@ lompo: not that pal3/ftrX or ftr4/palX dont earn their money. but:

as i said, i haven't tried it yet, but on paper pal2/mnk makes a great combo. it just won't be the "prototype" full-plate-and-packing-steel paladin. just examine the following char:

assimar pal2/mnkX

str 14
dex 14
con 14
int 6
wis 14
cha 18

(or some more min-maxing to your liking)

start as a paladin, multiclas after level 2.

at char level 3(!!!), this char will have evasion, backed by the paladine save bonuses, which can be enhanced by cha-buffing items and spells

he will be imune to fear as a level 2 pal, and to confusion via the early-available (and cheap) belt, and to charm via his Protection from Evil, or some item.

later in the game, he will become a lot more powerful, just think about this:

monk spell resistance + Holy Avenger spell resistance + great saves across the table + cha bonus to saves + GREATER evasion = put him into a group of enemies and start hurling fireballs... that's just standing there, not fighting...

oh, and that is without the elemental resistancies...
quivering palm+smite evil...
2*lay on hands, which may be backed by cha even for the monk ability, this remains to be checked...

did i miss anything?

not too shabby, eh?

Mirk I don't discuss that your pal/monk can be an interesting char. to play, is just that you are not building the most effective monk (because you are building a monk, ain't you?).
This is my reasoning: monks get a lot of bonuses as they progress, so you want to get them as soon as possible (as for spellcaster); take a pure monk (no ECL) at lev. 16 (end of normal mode): he has +3 bonus ac, is fist are considered +3 weapon doing 1-20 dmg and has 4 attack*rnd and he will be enjoing of spell res. for a long time (3 lev. ups); your monk will be lev. 13 (+2 pal), with +2 ac, his fist are +2 weapon doing 1-12 dmg for 4 attack*rnd (if you are using holy avenger (?) you'll have 2(!) attack*rnd), and you have just obtained the spell res.
What are you adv.?: some better saves due to paladinhood (plus the Aesimar bonus), the other bonuses are very lame (you don't get feared with such high saves, and you get immunity to disease both as pal and monk; smite evil is a once/day ability and is not so powerful with only 2 lev of pal.), but how much and at which cost?

your monk: 14/14/14/6/14/18

shield dwarf monk (but also other races can be good):16/18/20/6/18/2

if you cont in the racial save bonuses you have offset the paladin holy aura, plus you have higher ac (+5), hp (50-60), dmg and BAB.
Remember that you are building a tank!!

Last: spell res. don't protect you against dmg from fireball etc, but only from spell single directed (as finger of death or flame arrow), so in your strategy you monk is going to die very quickly.
But it can still be a fun char to play with.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:16 pm

Originally posted by Mirk
@ lompo: not that pal3/ftrX or ftr4/palX dont earn their money. but:

as i said, i haven't tried it yet, but on paper pal2/mnk makes a great combo. it just won't be the "prototype" full-plate-and-packing-steel paladin. just examine the following char:

assimar pal2/mnkX

str 14
dex 14
con 14
int 6
wis 14
cha 18

(or some more min-maxing to your liking)

funny you should post that,

currently i'm using a human - ranger 1 monk 1 paladin x

which does most of the same stuff.

ranger gives free dw,

monk gives wis bonus to ac + evasion

then the pally levels take over...

a few good spells and some buffs from the rest of the party and

he's hell on wheels, not the traditional tank, but a very solid party member.

and a minor correction -

sr will stack! (at least in some cases, it will for a drow paladin, i see no reason why monk sr would not stack w/ the holy avenger)

and i believe that ha sr stacks with itself (comes into play for hof)

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:11 am

hey koz-ivan,

i just thought of adding the ranger level to my build (will have to make him human, though) - does 2wf work with fist attacks as a main hand weapon?

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:03 am

Originally posted by Mirk
hey koz-ivan,

i just thought of adding the ranger level to my build (will have to make him human, though) - does 2wf work with fist attacks as a main hand weapon?

actually i thought of something that might really ruin your day...

the way iwd2 treats monk bab progression, will get screwed up if you gain +1 bab from multiclassing, which you will gain from the pally or the ranger. then you will have to use "standard" bab progression ie like a cleric or rogue. even when fighting w/ fists.

dual wield has no effect on unarmed attacks, though i've not tried an off hean weapon w/ a fist main hand.