A question for FABLE (others welcome to join in)

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 11:34 am

On anther thread you made the following post, in terms of the order CH2,CH3, quests ect that you followed

Originally posted by fable
It depends. The first time through, I did all of 'em at once. After that, I did only a few, and happily observed that the 2nd chapter quests got harder if I did the Underdark stuff, first. I liked that element of variation, and I've continued to alternate, ever since.

I have never followed this route (the ch2 stuff is in my opinion the most fun anyhow so I do that first) I have a game I just started and will try it out.

What I am wondering is, How did it get harder?
More Monsters?
Different Monsters?
Monsters with more HP?
Better AI ?

The reason I am interested is that if there is a “script” that varies the difficulty with the order of things It should be possible for one of the “tec-head Modders” to do a program triggering this at the start of the game or even better modifying it.

For example if the monsters HP increased by 20% when you triggered a flag leaving the underdark the program could be tweaked to raise HP by 50% and copied over so it was triggered when you entered the Twisted Ruin (making the game more difficult for those who seek the staff of the magi upon leaving the irenicus dungeon)

Could you, or anyone else elaborate on this ????

It would be nice to have some other way to bost the difficulty over
all other than just turning the difficulty up to insane ( which isn't)

Thanks

MitchMC

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:21 pm

There is some monster variation in most of the dungeons:
If you are very powerful, there will be stronger monsters, too.
For example, the ghoul city in the Cult of the Unseeing Eye quest:
If you are not very high level, there are some mummies, skeletons and skeleton warriors. If you go there later, there is one Greater Mummie, followed by a Bone Golem if you are higher level or eventually a lich if you go there very late.
I had even 2 Liches once in the Shadelord's dungeon when i went there very late in the game.

BTW, the the Tactics Mod allows you to enable 'Always toughest random spawns in dungeons', altough that can be very difficult if you run into a lich without knowing it is there

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:34 am

tactics mod...

nothing quite like it...fun fun fun..

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:08 am

As Numinor pretty much said. (By the way, you'll get more mileage on a question like this if you put your actual request in the title, instead of addressing it to a specific forum member.

) The developers deliberately created two main routes through the chapter, and prepared for both by analyzing the party levels when you enter a given dungeon. I remember being pretty shocked when those liches turned up in the Shade Lord's dungeon, after having dealt with nothing but a few minor nasties the first game around.

IMO, it's stuff like that which keeps BG2 interesting and fresh.

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:18 am

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
tactics mod...

nothing quite like it...fun fun fun..

I just ran(rather crwaked actually) through the irenicus dungeon with tactics installed...... it's one of the most challanging modz out there.....

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:35 am

Tactics, tactics, clap clap clap!

Tactics is SO cool. I'm just working through it myself (the whole thing - Ease of Use, Spell 50, Ascension, Mod NPCs) - it's almost a whole new game. I'm doing the Mae'Var fight right now - Ow, ow, ow. Please do note, however, that only certain fights are upgraded - Mencar and friends are still just as lame-o as ever.

It's a great place to practice the UserUnfriendly cheese guide - so far, just the bits acessible to a low level party. Frankly, a fair number of the fights just beg to be cheesed. The Black Sun guys, for instance, just love to spawn on top of traps...lots of traps...bwa ha ha!

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:50 pm

Originally posted by Numinor

BTW, the the Tactics Mod allows you to enable 'Always toughest random spawns in dungeons', altough that can be very difficult if you run into a lich without knowing it is there

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
tactics mod...

nothing quite like it...fun fun fun..

yes tactics has a lot of great stuff........hell now has a new meaning

tactics sort of beefs up certian fights and ads a couple good new ones
(acid kensi of cheese death, and the ritual come to mind) My idea was that if
there was a built in program, to increase the difficulty, which fable indicates is correct then perhaps some one at wiemers board could do a simple "Mod"
that would trigger it right at the start of the game

(in my ideal word the "fix" would work so that the monsters base hitpoints would increase with the level of the main character.

many potentially nasty beasts like those beatles that show up with the minflayers are killed far to easly by a hight level party or one with a wand of cloud kill (don't leave home without it

) If they didn't go down so quick there would be more of a chance for failed saving rolls.

This would not rework the game but it would be nice if a mage/fighter with one 9th level spell (time stop) and one specially ability (Greater whirlwhind) couldn't kill every dragon in the game solo (small teeth pass god I love it.... three dragons and 700,000 exp. almost a level

)

I payed D&D (the real game.......... first version three small books no rules
but lots of subjectivity (read arguements.....sh$t talk about rules lawyers
over half of us became lawyers) What I love about this game is that it has the richness of the best pen and paper games but with a totally impartial,consistant games master. The only drawback is that the game does not have the adaptability of a human GM to make the game more difficult
if the player progresses early ..........

thanks for your comments

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:55 pm

Originally posted by fable
By the way, you'll get more mileage on a question like this if you put your actual request in the title, instead of addressing it to a specific forum member. )

Thanks, and yes thats true. I thought about it and so added the phrase
("others welcome to join") Your opinion however was the one I wanted
most

cheers
Mitchmc

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:22 pm

Originally posted by MitchMc
Your opinion however was the one I wanted most

@Fable: see the common folk flocking around you for your wisdom

that's what comes with too much publicity.....

and a small post on topic: @MitchMc: that would be everyones perfect world........ it would however increaes monster generatin time......

, which is not a good thing IMO....

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:23 pm

Re: Tactics, tactics, clap clap clap!

Originally posted by nephtu
Tactics is SO cool. I'm just working through it myself (the whole thing - Ease of Use, Spell 50, Ascension, Mod NPCs) - it's almost a whole new game. I'm doing the Mae'Var fight right now - Ow, ow, ow.

I'm doing a full thief deal, shodows over soubar for the extras (runnungs stolen goods breaking into ribalds

)

Gerald buchars (sp?) enhanced thieves guild new quests

And improved Mae'Var (before i go turn maevar in to bloodscalp I like to have a thief pickpocket him anf steal his shadow armour then wear it whe I attack

I don't know if this gives him a lower AC for the fight but i just love to imagine his face when his spys advise that I am on my way to wipe him out, and he goes to get ready only to discover that i have stolen this armour lol )

((my kids say that my allignment is really chatoic ba$tard

)

Originally posted by nephtu Please do note, however, that only certain fights are upgraded - Mencar and friends are still just as lame-o as ever.

The big Picture project has an enhanced version.....I think they fixed up the thugs in the sewers and the way to the unseeing cult is that Mencar ?

Originally posted by nephtu It's a great place to practice the UserUnfriendly cheese guide - so far, just the bits acessible to a low level party. Frankly, a fair number of the fights just beg to be cheesed. The Black Sun guys, for instance, just love to spawn on top of traps...lots of traps...bwa ha ha!

black sun = potions&arrows of dispelling&gold&exp and lots of wet work

You can access lots of the tactics stuff right off the bat I've managed to take out the improved twisted ruin and get the staff of the magi after only having completed the mage stronghold and unseeing eye..which i needed to do to pick up the necessary equipment........cheese please

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:31 pm

Originally posted by garazdawi
it would however increaes monster generatin time...... , which is not a good thing IMO....

I have a 2gig drive with lots of ram

the only thing it runs is BG

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:38 pm

Originally posted by garazdawi
@Fable: see the common folk flocking around you for your wisdom that's what comes with too much publicity.....

I AM NOT COMMON

cheers
MitchMc

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:39 pm

Originally posted by MitchMc
What I am wondering is, How did it get harder?
More Monsters?
Different Monsters?
Monsters with more HP?
Better AI ?

The reason I am interested is that if there is a “script” that varies the difficulty with the order of things It should be possible for one of the “tec-head Modders” to do a program triggering this at the start of the game or even better modifying it...

I don't know how MODs could take advantage of it, but here's how the game does it. Monsters, traps, containers, etc. are placed on the area map. Some of them only appear if your character activates a trigger. (You know how traps look when you detect them? That's what triggers look like, except you can't detect them. When you walk over one, whatever is controlled by the trigger might appear.) The triggers that change the difficulty of the game are activated according to your character's level. If you have a high level character, more monsters and traps are triggered to appear. For example, a bone golem might appear in the tanner's basement when you walk over the trigger if your character is high enough in level.

Since the triggers are activated by your character's level, again, I don't know how a MOD could use them.

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:09 pm

Re: Re: Tactics, tactics, clap clap clap!

Originally posted by MitchMc
The big Picture project has an enhanced version.....I think they fixed up the thugs in the sewers and the way to the unseeing cult is that Mencar ?

No, Mencar is the obnoxious dorf (ok, that's redundant, I know) upstairs in the Inn of the Seven Dales / Waukeen's Promenade - he has a boatload of HPs, but his party are a pretty lame encounter. The slackers in the sewer are Trenor the Hatchetman & friends, I haven't gotten to them yet.

Originally posted by MitchMc
black sun = potions&arrows of dispelling&gold&exp and lots of wet work

Arrows of dispelling? The cheap jerks haven't given me any of them yet, but a ton o'sales gear and +1 full plate for all (both) the heavies, plus the odd potion.

Originally posted by MitchMc
You can access lots of the tactics stuff right off the bat I've managed to take out the improved twisted ruin and get the staff of the magi after only having completed the mage stronghold and unseeing eye..which i needed to do to pick up the necessary equipment........cheese please

Haven't even attempted the twisted Rune - did you have Project Image? I was planning on waiting till my mages (especially Jan, mwa ha ha) could cast that.

The tricky thing for me on Mae'Var is that I'm pretty habituated to using split-based techniques because I'm a creature of habit and that's how I've been doing things in other games. Mae'Var's gang are really tough to split up.

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:15 am

Originally posted by MitchMc
I have a 2gig drive with lots of ram the only thing it runs is BG

I was talking about CPU power.......not HD or RAM

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:54 am

You can access lots of the tactics stuff right off the bat I've managed to take out the improved twisted ruin and get the staff of the magi after only having completed the mage stronghold and unseeing eye..which i needed to do to pick up the necessary equipment........cheese please

the unimproved twisted rune is the encounter where i posted my first cheese ever...use far sight and project image to load up the spawnpoints with 5 delay blast fireballs...extra crispy???

the improved one is a weimer special...he read up on cheese people have posted and if i was the paranoid type id say he read up on my cheese posts...me??? paranoid??? nnnnaaaaahhhhh....

stop looking at me!!! i can feel your eyes!!! there are weasels in my hovercraft!!!

hahhhahhahha....

cheese coming up...

the improved twisted rune...well, its hard hard to cheese...the best i have come up with is before triggering dialog, load up all party members with stacked protection from elements, and spray 3 inc clouds in the little waiting room...then use a buffed fighter or a powerful sorc to attack the beholder...the lich should pop in the middle of your party and hopefully die fast, spell disrupted...(didnt know inc cloud disrupts lich spell casting??) and prepare the other mages in party with spell triggered sunfire....because your party is protected from fire, you can use the sunfires to sorta depth charge for layne,,,the mage with the staff...her lethal trick of using the staff to hide and cast abu dahzims is very annoying..

but basically use a high level party and powerful spells....

oh and neptu, after installing the tactics or sola mod, you can no longer use project image or simmy to override the 7 spike traps per map limit....

but you can put over 7 traps per map if you put in 7 spike traps, 7 snares and 7 bounty hunter special snares...and you can still overload on delay blast fireballs and skulls...

sorcs rule all, and bun bun rules all sorcs...ehhehhehhe

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:24 pm

cheese for the soul

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
the improved one is a weimer special...he read up on cheese people have posted and if i was the paranoid type id say he read up on my cheese posts...me??? paranoid??? nnnnaaaaahhhhh....

I think you are right

There are nine baddies to deal with. The litch, (who shows up first on the table) as well as the warrior, the vampire, the beholder, the mage (with the staff) and four assassins.
Other than the Litch, the baddies “teleport” in in two waves.

First the assassins hit the flour and then IN EXACTLY THE SAME LOCATION the warrior, Vamp, beholder and mage show up. I smiled as I figured this two stage deployment was designed to
Clear out any traps you set with the first wave of assassins. So the big guns can come in and wipe you out

Ha fooled them I don't have anyone of a high enough level to set traps

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
the improved twisted rune...well, its hard hard to cheese...
but basically use a high level party and powerful spells....

No way… I came out of the irenicus dungeon did the mage strong hold, wiped out the beholder lair, picked up the Illithium ore, upgraded Azuredge and collected the staff from the dead body of a ruin mage

No one in the party was much above 8th level and no spells above 5th level. The plan requires some preparation but is very doable. The best thing is that the whole plan revolves around cheesing your way into having a staff of power. (you have to teach you apprentices to blow themselves up real good

)

One interesting thing I learned is that while the Azuredge basic is listed as a +3 weapon that is not its effect on THACO.

A second is that the assassins are immune to cloud kill, but the mage is not.

Third…well I’ll wait till later

I will sit down when I have some time and post/send you the entire cheese plan.

It will take a page or two but I think (hope) that it is sufficiently evil to make it into the next edition of the cheese guide. Even better if I can update the cheese guide with a fix on your first cheese of note

Thanks for the info on the different types of trap and the limits
___________
Cheers
MitchMc

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:36 pm

Originally posted by garazdawi
I was talking about CPU power.......not HD or RAM

Sorry I was less than clear

I checked and this is the beast I have (in correct cmputer terms)

CPU = 2.0 GHz
HD =20 Gb
RAM = 128Mb

still the only thing on it is BG

No time lags of note to report

Cheers
MitchMc

MitchMc · Post by **MitchMc** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:50 pm

Re: Re: A question for FABLE (others welcome to join in)

Originally posted by VonDondu
I don't know how MODs could take advantage of it, but here's how the game does it. ..............................

Since the triggers are activated by your character's level, again, I don't know how a MOD could use them.

Ok back to the topic. please remember I am a techno wenie
(ie I know nothing....I can sort of type

)

Take for example the bandits/bad guys that come after you when you are out at night in the city (Black sun i think) They seem to be dependent on your level, that is to say when you are at a low level you get a low level group with low level loot. Easy to kill

When you are at 20th level the are very mean (bounty hunters, wizard slayers shadow druids ect) And they have great stuff... not easy to kill but well worth the effort

If you could do a "mod" (ie a few lines of self loading script) so that the game thought you were 20th level rather than 10th and made the corresponding changes to the game difficulty then that would be a simple (?) and quick (?) way to turn up the heat

Does this make sense to you????

Cheers
MitchMc

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 6:27 pm

staff of power??

comes with globe of invulnerability...so you set up triggers and sequencers and sprayed lightning bolts???

that would do it...

now the lich is always dead easy...have a improved hasted fighter attack lich as his only target as soon as he teleports with azuredge...liches generally raise spell protection up first in scripts, so a quick physical assault with undead blasting weapons usually kills them quick...

so you loaded up with cloudkills...

aha...

you noted globe will protect your party from level 3 spells...so you stood just outside the room and sprayed the entire area with cloudkills, and once triggered you killed lich with azuredge and attacked...the mage should die due to cloudkill, or be severely weakened....

and you protected the sorc or mage with all the cloudkills with staff of power...

ok, try this, buy and sell wands of cloudkill....so it is recharged...

then use the limited wish spell option, globe of invulnerability, and have all mages spray out as many cloudkills as possible....

now a wand cast of a spell is not "owned" by any character, so a party protected by globes will be fully protected...

(a spell cast is owned by the mage or sorc who casts it...and the game engine says you can always successfully cast spells on self, so a area damage spell can hurt the caster, even if you use spells like spell immunity.....)

the cloudkills should hurt the mage and beholder...kill the lich with azuredge and this should work...

really, the improved twisted rune is all about the lich, beholder and mage....the vamp and assassins are fillers...