Illithium - VERY small spoiler

Incertainty · Post by **Incertainty** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:42 am

Ok, I talked with the ore merchant. The thing is, I've got a 8it of a pro8lem choosing - more exp or the cool mace. The thing is, I need the exp for the moment. 8ad; my party consists of a cavalier, an illusionist/thief, an archer, a cleric/ranger, a kensai (currently dualled to mage, yet to re-activate his kensai skills), and a 8erserker (same as the kensai). So the only decent fighters I've got at the moment are the cavalier and possi8ly the cleric/ranger. The archer is wielding Sarevok's 8lade of chaos, 8ut I'd rather have him shooting away (grand mastery). Now the thing is this: the mace seems good, almost too good to pass up for mere exp, 8ut my no8ody has mace proficiency (the cleric has hammer and flail) and as explained, I need the exp. Can you help me decide?

Hesperus · Post by **Hesperus** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:30 am

So who's the leader of the party? If its the cavalier, it might change the advice based on role-playing reasons, as it seems on the face of it at least that a paladin would choose the church's interest over his/her interest in a sweet mace, but that may be debatable because having that mace will really enable him/her to crush a lot of powerful undead without a lot of trouble (which may be an outweighing good to giving the fake ore to the snooty artist, and fudging a bit to the Helmites). But here's the funny spoiler (highlight):

It works out well if you keep the real ore from the church of Helm's perspective: theyare quite pleased when you don't give in to the whimsy of the over priced artist--the big Helm guy likes the properties of the fake ore for a number of Helmish reasons. I don't remember which option gives more experience, but you get some in either route, and you get rewarded from the church (I think you get a decent helmet and some reimbursement, if I recall) if you keep the ore for yourself (or rather, for the greater good of destroying undead

).

IHateUsernames · Post by **IHateUsernames** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:46 pm

i think its about the same XP but you dont get ad much money. might be slighly lower XP but not much

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:28 pm

I can't remember how much extra experience you get for giving the illithium ore to Sir Sarles (if any). But in the long run, any extra experience you might get for giving the illithium ore to the (undeserving) Sir Sarles is negligible, while the benefit in having the Improved Mace of Disruption +2 is substantial. If you want to benefit yourself the most, then there's your answer. (Don't worry about proficiency points--you'll have plenty to distribute.) However, I don't think a Cavalier would keep the ore for himself if you were roleplaying properly. Even if your character somehow knew in advance that you could upgrade the Mace of Disruption (which is highly unlikely), enabling you to kill hordes of undead, the end does NOT justify the means to a Lawful Good character, especially not a Paladin. But that's up to you. If you want to look at the "big picture", that's fine with me, because I like to play Neutral Good or Chaotic Good characters, and from that perspective, I don't think it's right to give the ore to Sir Sarles.

If you're going to "meta-game" (that is, make choices based on information your character couldn't possibly have), then you can also consider the fact that keeping the illithium ore for yourself actually yields a positive outcome for the quest as far as the Temple is concerned--the Temple gains a modest, appropriate work of art without (inappropriately) glorifying the ego-hound Sir Sarles in the process. But again, I don't think that a Cavalier would cheat or lie to Sir Sarles even if it yielded a positive outcome. Are you going to roleplay or choose the best outcome? Again, that's up to you.

Does that answer your question?

Hesperus · Post by **Hesperus** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:55 pm

Good answer I'd say and you're likely right, given LG paramount importance of following orders (LN as well I suppose). With paladins I try to stretch it and try to be like a Rule Utilitarian, where one's duty is to follow the rules that would bring about the greatest good for the greatest number. Helping others in such a way is the stretched take on the good aspect of the alignment, with lawful following ideal rules instead being hopelessly bogged in a person's rules as a LN might be. As a result, maybe (stretch) the Rule Utilitarian paladin might be justified in not following the orders of a likely LN Helmite (though there are Helmish LG paladins...) and not following the selfish whims of the artist, as more good could be served by the destruction of undead. However, my stretched case may fall apart because you have to lie to the artist: lying typically will not maximize utility, and I'm not sure how hot a paladin would be about breaking a rule. And there are alternative ways to smash undead (much less the +1 mace of dis is really good, though the paladin might have already "talked" to Cromwell for the +2). And metagame playing isn't appropriate from a roleplaying perspective, since the PC likely doesn't know what will happen and is trusting the word of the Helmite. Oh well, role playing paladins is harder than many give it credit for. So at this point Jan tells his story about Pippy Paladin Plooter...

Caldarya · Post by **Caldarya** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:58 pm

illithium

If i remember correctly, the upgraded mace just gains the mace+2 stats, but no increase in damage vs. undead. The only time I ever used the thing was against undead anyways, so I did not bother with getting it upgraded and just took the xp.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:17 pm

Re: illithium

Originally posted by Caldarya
If i remember correctly, the upgraded mace just gains the mace+2 stats, but no increase in damage vs. undead. The only time I ever used the thing was against undead anyways, so I did not bother with getting it upgraded and just took the xp.

Are you sure? I thought that it functioned as +5 damage against the Undead. I know it can kill literally every undead creature in the game, and some of those require a +3 or +4 enchantment to get through.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:18 pm

Re: illithium

Originally posted by Caldarya
If i remember correctly, the upgraded mace just gains the mace+2 stats, but no increase in damage vs. undead. The only time I ever used the thing was against undead anyways, so I did not bother with getting it upgraded and just took the xp.

Though in my topic asking about what there were for +4 weapons and higher, someone brought up that the improved Mace of Disruption counts as a +5 weapon when determining what it can hit. Is that true?

BTW, Incertainty, I was wondering who you were going to give the improved mace to, if you got it? Sounds like a good choice for your Ranger/Cleric.

Hesperus · Post by **Hesperus** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:58 pm

S/K verification...

both versions do double damage to undead too...

Mace of Disruption +2
This heavy mace was created for a very specific purpose: to slay undead. Any such creature hit by it not only feels the sting of weapon, but also has a chance of being simply blasted from existence. There are legends that speak of a priest so holy a single glancing touch could send a vampire to oblivion, but whether the weapon empowered her or she empowered it is a topic for theologians.
Now that the mace has been coated with illithium, it is even more potent, conferring to its user immunity to the life-draining powers of the more powerful undead.

STATISTICS:

Combat Abilities:
Always considered to be of +5 enchantment when determining what it can hit.
2D6 + 4 damage to Undead, plus they must make a saving throw vs. death (-4 penalty) or be utterly destroyed
Immunity to Level Drain
THAC0: +2
Damage: 1D6 + 3
Damage type: crushing
Weight: 8
Speed Factor: 6

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:19 pm

like the sword you pick up in druid grove, it counts as +5 when you attack undead...its undead blasting powers are only second to a hammer you pick up in tob...

it is literally the finest anti-undead weapon you can have..unless you have item upgrade installed, then do not make the mace, upgrade azuredge instead...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:34 pm

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
In my topic asking about what there were for +4 weapons and higher, someone brought up that the improved Mace of Disruption counts as a +5 weapon when determining what it can hit. Is that true?

I might have been the one who told you that, and yes, it's true. Though it isn't in the item description, the Improved Mace of Disruption +2 has a +5 "enchantment", meaning it can hit creatures that require a +5 or better weapon to hit. However, it only has a +2 attack bonus. If you use an item editor or a resource viewer such as Infinity Explorer, you can see these values for yourself.

If I'm not mistaken, I think the illithium coating gives the Improved Mace of Disruption +2 the power of immunity against level drain, which the un-improved Mace of Disruption +1 does not have. Attack bonuses aside, that's one of the best reasons to upgrade the mace.

Originally posted by fable
...I know it can kill literally every undead creature in the game...

I think there's one undead creature it can't kill instantly (a very special one), but I could be wrong. And no, I'm not talking about, uh, "Mr. K".

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
...its undead blasting powers are only second to a hammer you pick up in tob...

it is literally the finest anti-undead weapon you can have..unless you have item upgrade installed, then do not make the mace, upgrade azuredge instead...

In an un-MOD-ified game, Azuredge is buggy and does not function the way it's supposed to. I know there are patches that fix that problem, but I wasn't aware of the MOD you mentioned. Does the new upgrade for Azuredge require the illithium ore?

In any case, Azuredge is an axe, which cannot be wielded by a Cleric. So if you're trying to decide whether to upgrade the Mace of Disruption or Azuredge, you should consider whether you want a Cleric to wield the upgraded weapon.

Hesperus · Post by **Hesperus** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:03 am

upgraded azuredge

@ VonDondu:

I know there are patches that fix that problem, but I wasn't aware of the MOD you mentioned. Does the new upgrade for Azuredge require the illithium ore?

yes the Weimer's item upgrade mod has a file that fixes it and using the ore, you can make the +4 azuredge (updated with the save penalty and more), check it out:

Azuredge +4
The already potent undead-bane Azuredge was further enhanced by <CHARNAME> when <PRO_HESHE> had it coated with a veneer of pure illithium. The axe first forged by Gulen Rockfire still returns to its wielder's hand when thrown and still smites undead with a holy fervor, but now it also protects the wielder from the level-draining assaults of the more powerful graveborn. On a more decorative note, the illithium seems to have shifted the color of the weapon slightly away from its namesake.

STATISTICS

Combat Ability: +4 extra damage to undead, plus they must make a saving throw vs. death (-4 penalty) or be utterly destroyed
Equipped Ability: Immunity to Level Drain
Damage: 1d6+4
THAC0: +4
Damage type (melee): slashing
Damage type (thrown): missile (piercing)
Special: Returns to user's hand once thrown
Weight: 2
Speed Factor: 0
Proficiency Type: Axe
Type: 1-handed
Requires: 4 Strength
Not Usable By:
Any Neutral or Evil Character
Druid
Cleric
Mage
Thief

Incertainty · Post by **Incertainty** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:48 am

well as for the whole paladin discussion - he's not my main char. That role is given to -hehe- CHAOTIC good ilussionist/THIEF so no pro8lem there. 8tw: I'm using the 8 as a letter 8ecause my key8oard's partially 8roke

Hesperus · Post by **Hesperus** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:55 am

cool, CG seems more intuitive to me as well.

8tw: I'm using the 8 as a letter 8ecause my key8oard's partially 8roke

Hmmm, is that because 'b' is so close to the space bar? (time for a new strategy we're getting whopped WHAM! pause)

JonIrenicus · Post by **JonIrenicus** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 2:41 am

DO BOTH! Spoilers

You can do both by getting the ore, giving it to SirCharles. Then monster summon (1,2,3) then dire charm SirCharles have him attack the summon, he gets killed drops the ore and then get mace and make it better.