Is single-player gaming on its deathbed?

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:08 am

I have to admit it, there seems to be a weakening in the strength of single-player games out there. Massive multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) and other multiplayer online games are nearly everywhere, many of them groundbreakers of sorts. But the thing is, are we ever going to see any great single player RPGs and other games that will be real fun?

Besides, where's a recent single-player game past Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy 7 that combine good story, deeply rooted gameplay, and great character depth? Also, what about good character generation like in Baldur's Gate (BG2 included) and the Icewind Dale series (IWD2 comes to mind)? The only reason I ask all this is because I hope that if I ever get another game in the future, it would be a good single-player game that's REALLY worth all its money and praise. I don't wish to humiliate and or belittle multi-player gamers of any sort, but I feel that the games I've known and loved for years are on the brink of endangerment.

What would you all have to say about this?

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:50 am

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
I have to admit it, there seems to be a weakening in the strength of single-player games out there. Massive multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) and other multiplayer online games are nearly everywhere, many of them groundbreakers of sorts.

I predicted the glut of MMORPGs back in the mid-90's. (My editor at Computer Shopper said I was "a fool" and that "online games wouldn't catch on for at least twenty years.") I'm also predicting now the collapse of the MMORPG bubble, resulting from too many me-too games, too much alike, for the market. In less than five years, I think. Producers will suddenly realize that MMORPGs aren't monthly checks for nothing, but that players expect a regularly changing, growing environment. The market will narrow out to those games that are in this sense, the most interactive.

But the thing is, are we ever going to see any great single player RPGs and other games that will be real fun?

But you didn't specify RPGs, above. Strategy games that possess superb AI are selling extremely well right now, easily surpassing most MMORPGs. This includes both realtime and turn-based titles, the latter having suddenly become very popular, once more.

Besides, where's a recent single-player game past Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy 7 that combine good story, deeply rooted gameplay, and great character depth? Also, what about good character generation like in Baldur's Gate (BG2 included) and the Icewind Dale series (IWD2 comes to mind)?

What MMORPG offers a truly good story? They're all so hokey it's unbelievable. The effort is placed on creating as interactive and combat-filled an environment as possible, and the back stories are usually written by people whose idea of great entertainment is the latest AD&D novel.

Whether or not you liked Arcanum (and I can't say I liked it all that much), it supplied just what you're looking for, in spades--especially character creation depth. The same applies to Fallout II and even Jagged Alliance 2, an excellent crossover title. Mistmare may do this. Have you forgotten that Lionheart, Greyhawk, KotoR and V:TM Bloodlines are all due out this year?

Remember, it is easier to produce a good MMORPG than a stellar standalone RPG, because you can rely upon players to do a lot of your work for you in the former titles. This translates into heavier development time for standalone titles, and it takes a while to turn those out. But sales of KotoR on the Xbox are setting a record, and I suspect they will on the PC, too. Don't take two years out of context to declare all standalone games dead. The market is rich and very successful at the moment, with the biggest threat coming, not from multiplayer, but from console use, IMO.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:23 am

Alright, but here's the counterpoint, fable

Good points overall, fable. The thing is, with Knights of the Old Republic, I confess that I don't have an Xbox, or a PS2 OR a Gamcube for that matter. I haven't seen any games/titles on those systems that really appeal to me. Final Fantasy has really gone somewhere I don't feel good going into. The last FF game I played was FFXI, and there were some things in that game that were pretty good, and some that really could've been worked better on. I have a Sony Playstation, a Nintendo 64, and this very computer that I'm online with right now as my personal entertainment systems.

Lionheart is one that I've only heard some details about, so I don't know what to say. Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines doesn't sound all too appealing to me, for some reason (mainly because I only like monsters to an extent). Greyhawk is one I've been starting to hear/read more details about, but I'm still scratching my head over. It's not that I'm trying to be unkind to you fable, but I'm telling you how I feel about those games so far.

The only games for the PS2 that have sparked my interest somewhat (though not terrifically) are some that are coming out based upon an action cartoon genre that I've been a fan of since I was about 2 years old (and Taco Magus is very familiar with): The Transformers. Still, one of them is only coming out in Japan (and may not come out for 2 or so years). Still, I'm not trying to diss the people who have these consoles. It's just that I don't think I'd find much use for one if I got it. Sorry guys.

Here, let me give you a list of my favorite games, to give you a big sample of my favorite stuff:
PC:
- Baldur's Gate (inc. Tales of the Sword Coast)
- Baldur's Gate 2 (Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal)
- Lords of Magic: Special Edition (an RPG game that incorporates 8 different 'nations' of fantasy races that hold special magics, military units, their own capitals, and rival other faiths, such as Life vs. Death, Fire vs. Water, Earth vs. Air, and Order vs. Chaos)
- Icewind Dale 2
- X-Com: UFO Defense (a famous Microprose sci-fi action/strategy game from the early/mid 90s that incorporated fighting back alien invasions in modern earthen settings, along with research and development at bases and financial management)
- Master of Magic (another famous Microprose game, this one a fantasy strategy kind of along the lines of their MOST famous game of all, Civilization)

Playstation:
- Final Fantasy 7
- Final Fantasy Tactics (a breed of RPG and Strategy in one game that has gone down in console history)
- Final Fantasy Chronicles (combined two great games from an older system, one that I played and loved, and one that I wanted to play years ago but never got the chance)
- Final Fantasy Origins (got earlier this year; has a reissuing of the original Final Fantasy, a game I loved as a kid)

Nintendo 64:
- Super Mario 64 (everybody's favorite plumber in an action/adventure breakthrough)
- The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time (who didn't love Link?)
- The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (I'll confess that I've been quite a Legend fo Zelda fan for years as well as Final Fantasy)

That's all I wish to go into for my favorite games. Any more, and I'd think I'd make your eyes pop out, fable.

Well, I hope this helps you to understand my dilemma. Anybody else that wishes to add to this is welcome to do so at their convenience.

Post by **BuckGB** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:33 am

Re: Alright, but here's the counterpoint, fable

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Good points overall, fable. The thing is, with Knights of the Old Republic, I confess that I don't have an Xbox, or a PS2 OR a Gamcube for that matter. I haven't seen any games/titles on those systems that really appeal to me.

Although fairly expensive, I seriously think is that it's worth buying an Xbox *just* for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. KotOR is BioWare's finest game since BG2, in my opinion, and offers much of what you're looking for. Plus, BioWare is already working on another console RPG, and you have Xbox games like Fable (and a possible KotOR expansion/sequel) to look forward to as well. Granted, you can always wait until November to play the PC version of KotOR, but then it may interfere with your Temple of Elemental Evil time =).

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:51 am

Re: Re: Alright, but here's the counterpoint, fable

Originally posted by Buck Satan
Although fairly expensive, I seriously think is that it's worth buying an Xbox *just* for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. KotOR is BioWare's finest game since BG2, in my opinion, and offers much of what you're looking for. Plus, BioWare is already working on another console RPG, and you have Xbox games like Fable (and a possible KotOR expansion/sequel) to look forward to as well. Granted, you can always wait until November to play the PC version of KotOR, but then it may interfere with your Temple of Elemental Evil time =).

Sorry guys, but:

1) I'm not really that big on Star Wars, and

2) I'm still not sure if The Temple of Elemental Evil is going to really be something all that much up my ally. I don't mind making characters and stuff like that, but the previews I heard sound like the game's lacking something that I crave.

What's left, then?

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:11 pm

I think what the main problem is that people hope onto a band wagon of flashy imagery and mindless action, without pausing to think about the substance inbetween. For the most part, I blame the FPS's market, and Blizzard, for two very good reasons. The FPS market doesn't have to worry about a story, they just have to make a showy game that appeals to the players sense of action and might, and keep them hooked with some pseudo innovative game play. I blame Blizzard for single handidly ruining the RPG genre with Diablo. I will never forgive Blizzard for that. They brought the game of the Spansih Devil out, made incredably weak, to non-existant story, poor gameplay, and a horde of enemies and uber items, and then called it an RPG. This was back in a time when CRPG's still weren't a huge popular thing on computers, so many would be gamers picked this up, enjoyed it, and suddenly thought that was what an RPG was. Since then, this has bred huge amounts of clones, and the powergamer revelation in RPG's. These people complain, literally, when there is too much in depth material to an RPG, and not enough action.

Also, I personally hate MMORPG's, and feel that no game is worth a monthly bill on my end. If I'm gonna be paying $15-$30 a month for a game, that game better be flawless. I have a couple friends who currently play the first MMOFPS, Planetside, and I laugh at them. the only thing the game boasts is servers bigger the 64 players, yet, rarely do they even see that many players in one battle. When that's the case, I simply say, then way not play a game like Tribes 2, or something, where there isn't that absurd lag, horrible clipping, and other such blatant issues. The same stands true for the MMORPG's. These things appeal to power gamers, and powergamers make up the majority of the market as it stands. With that in mind, developers make games geared towards the people who whine the most.

I suggest some of you check out the Bioware forums, and see what sort of whining is going on in the HotU expansion forum for NWN. It's insane. There are huge debates over Epic levels, and how 'uber' you can become. Even bioware is focusing less and less on the game content, and replacing it with simple powergamer leet crap, much like they did with ToB.

As for the Final Fantasy games, the last one I played, and enjoyed, aside from Tactics, was when Final Fantasy 3 was released to North America on the Super Nintendo. The Playstation one's reek of flashy graphics and weak gameplay (I abhorred FF8's gameplay to no end).

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:24 pm

Trust me, Aegis, my absolute favorite Final Fantasy games are the classic Nintendo versions, along with 7 and Tactics for the PSX.

Oh yeah, and there's one PC game I forgot to mention earlier: Stronghold. This game (the version that came out in 2001) was quite innovative because it combined city building and medieval strategic combat. You built an economy, a city, and a military to defend the former aspects all in one games. Sure, it also had free build and economic campaign options as well as military campaigns, but there is/was quite a bit to the game.

Tell me Aegis, what are some of your favorite games?

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:32 pm

Mine. Alright, I suppose.

I'll catagorize them, simply for simplicity's sake:

RTS:

Warcraft series
Command & Conquer (Original and Generals)
Homeworld
Mechcommander
Lords of the Realm II (which sadly, I can't play anymore. Weird install error

)
Starship Troopers
Warhammer: Dark Omen
StarCraft (Boo! to Broodwar!)

FPS: (Here's a short list)
Alien Vs. Predator 1&2
Battlefield 1942 (unmodded)
American McGee's Alice
Mechwarrior 4: Vengence

RPG:

Baldur's Gate 1/2
Morrowind
Neverwinter Nights (Only for playing on Argyle Online)
Final Fantasy 2/3/Tactics
Chrono Trigger
Secret of Mana

Space Sims:

Starlancer

there you have. I own many more than that, but few which I play regularly.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:42 pm

Stronghold was a poor game in my oppinion - I've always liked builder-games to some extend, but Stronghold showed poor AI, easy gameplay, simplistic economics etc and was for me, basically just Lord of the Realms II in new icing ... but ....

Back on topic

.

Personally I agree with much about what Aegis says about the FPS and Blizzard (I am one of the peopel that will never be able to classify Diablo as anything near a RPG)
But unlike Aegis I personally enjoy MMORPGs a lot, sure many of them have simplistic gameplay and challenges, but they have the element that many gamers have sought out since computergames first entered the market in Arcade halls.
The challenge of a human brain.

I think untill AI becomes somewhat of a challenge toward the unpredicatble human brain people will strive for more and more multiplayer games.

From splitscreen back in the days of Outrun, through the PC and up to todays MMORPG people have alwasy wanted to test their "skills" against friends and foes alike.
This is the reason why MMORPGs - or simply MMO games are so popular today. It is a trend I see will increase, the market for MMORPGs will likely thin out as Fable indicates in his posting, but to actually speak of a "bursting bubble" I would see before I belive.
Games of all genre are multiplayer and hugely successfull in that genre. People still battle it out in Starcraft (a mediocra game in my oppinion), CounterStrike is still going strong with clones and expansions comming out like never before.
WoW and Dragon Empire are two new "medival/fantasy" MMORPG in development just to mention two with Shadowbane, EQ, DAoC, SWG, EVE, AO just to mention some of thoese MMO games on the market today and still growing.

The disadvantage is the lack of serious gameplay in these games because it is expected that the players drive much of the gameplay themselves. Thus is it also with the development of NwN were the community thrives on player made worlds, modules and HAKs.

This leaves the Single Player games standing still. While I doubt the Single Player games are on a "deathbed", because as many have suggestion names of games that promise (or/and deliver) great Gameplay I think the dominance of the single player games have been broken.

It is "easier" to make pure multiplayer games such as NwN, MMO-games, CS et al. because the players drive much of the story and because AI needs to be limited. Also because said games, especially MMO, are undergoing constant development and additions, it makes it easier to launch a "flawed" product becuase most gamers of such games are used to having to download some big patches.
A great single player game have to be "great" in all the departments that a great multiplayer game needn't worry so much about. For instance AI needs to be good otherwise there is no challenge, the game needs to be rather bugfree because single player games arne't custome to the same level of patching (for instance EVE Online and DAoC, 2 MMO games I've played, have patched loads of times, whereas single player games usually recive 2-4 patches).

I think, to sum up (if I can remember what I wrote

) that multiplayer games will continue to expand their market, especially as more people get broadband connections to the internet, at the expense of the single player games, and possible at the expense of "Great" gameplay.

"The bubble has far from expanded yet."

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:55 pm

Oh yes, I remember the Secret of Mana! Very nice game for its time. And, in case you're wondering, Final Fantasy 2 (in case you're talking about the Super Nintendo version, it's titled #4 for the Playstation) and Chrono Trigger are the games that make up Final Fantasy Chronicles.

I have played the Command & Conquer series, though I admit the only RTS game I really have interest and some skill with is WarCraft III (which is another series my folks have been into).

For RPGs, I have not played Morrowind. The only FPS that I had gotten any bit into is Half-Life. That was a game, like StarCraft and the Diablo series, that my younger brother played the heck out of.

I do understand that not everyone is a fan of one game (or one type), but I'm living on a strand of luck that there's hope for a real good game in the future.

Hopefully, if there are alot of Microprose reissues, we'll see a rebirth of some classics that almost warrants a return of the golden age of games. *crosses fingers, hopes for good reissues of X-COM, Masters of Magic, and something else*

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:09 pm

Re: Re: Re: Alright, but here's the counterpoint, fable

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Sorry guys, but:

1) I'm not really that big on Star Wars, and

Galuf, the story and interplay is really as intricate as BG2, possibly even PST. The Star Wars theme is very much secondary to the truly intense storyline involvement. Buck is right, it [is] worth buying an X-box, but the X-box alone even with out the KoTOR game is a great gaming investment. It is by far the most awesomd gameing console out there, that and the fact that the games that are coming out for it are getting better and better.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:15 pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Alright, but here's the counterpoint, fable

Originally posted by Scayde
Galuf, the story and interplay is really as intricate as BG2, possibly even PST. The Star Wars theme is very much secondary to the truly intense storyline involvement. Buck is right, it [is] worth buying an X-box, but the X-box alone even with out the KoTOR game is a great gaming investment. It is by far the most awesomd gameing console out there, that and the fact that the games that are coming out for it are getting better and better.

Well, ah still dunna, lads & lasses. I'll give it a thought for the future, at least. *shrugs*

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:01 pm

It would appear that your question isn't really, then, about the death of single-player PC games, but whether there are any single-player RPGs out there that fit your very specific needs. To give an answer for that, we really need to know a lot more about what you liked in the games you enjoyed.

But I think it's pretty clear that single-player PC RPGs are not only alive, but thriving. I've just heard, in fact, that Lionheart has gone gold.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:15 pm

Originally posted by fable
It would appear that your question isn't really, then, about the death of single-player PC games, but whether there are any single-player RPGs out there that fit your very specific needs. To give an answer for that, we really need to know a lot more about what you liked in the games you enjoyed.

But I think it's pretty clear that single-player PC RPGs are not only alive, but thriving. I've just heard, in fact, that Lionheart has gone gold.

Well, yeah.

*holds out arms like he's surrendering*

I confess then, I'm having trouble finding games that really suit my needs. I guess I'll try and find out as much as I can about Lionheart to see if it's worth it. If it's already gone gold, it may be more promising.

I'm not surprised that many here haven't heard of games like Lords of Magic (especially the special edition, with a pack of special quests that 3 out of the 5 are based upon famous myths)

Oh well, it's like the saying goes: that's how the cookie crumbles. *shrugs*

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:26 pm

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Oh well, it's like the saying goes: that's how the cookie crumbles. *shrugs*

No! Not the C-word!!

*looks around furtively* It's ok, I don't think Aegis has seen it...

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:33 pm

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
I'm not surprised that many here haven't heard of games like Lords of Magic (especially the special edition, with a pack of special quests that 3 out of the 5 are based upon famous myths)

Sure, I know it; I reviewed it, in fact, for one of the leading PC game magazines at the time. But that's really a strategy game in fantasy clothing. If you like that sort of thing, consider the Age of Wonders series, or Heroes of Might and Magic III and IV. I enjoy that kind of thing myself, but find the extremely linear paths to victory very off-putting in the campaigns and many scenarios--not to mention the blatant cheating some of these games indulge in to make up for poor AI.

Much better, IMO, is the Warlords series, of which I've got the beta for Warlords IV on my computer, now. I think it'll be a great hit when it releases.

I've also heard a rumor that Atari has approached the Stardock folks (who did the recent Galactic Civilizations, with its superlative AI) to do a remake of Master of Magic. If this actually happens, it will be great news. MoM was a phenomenal game in many respects (though buggy as hell on arrival, like so many games by Microprose).

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:40 pm

Originally posted by fable
Sure, I know it; I reviewed it, in fact, for one of the leading PC game magazines at the time. But that's really a strategy game in fantasy clothing. If you like that sort of thing, consider the Age of Wonders series, or Heroes of Might and Magic III and IV. I enjoy that kind of thing myself, but find the extremely linear paths to victory very off-putting in the campaigns and many scenarios--not to mention the blatant cheating some of these games indulge in to make up for poor AI.

Much better, IMO, is the Warlords series, of which I've got the beta for Warlords IV on my computer, now. I think it'll be a great hit when it releases.

I've also heard a rumor that Atari has approached the Stardock folks (who did the recent Galactic Civilizations, with its superlative AI) to do a remake of Master of Magic. If this actually happens, it will be great news. MoM was a phenomenal game in many respects (though buggy as hell on arrival, like so many games by Microprose).

So that's who's possibly remaking that. I would've thought that Firaxis (a company founded by Microprose founder Sid Meyer) would be the one to do that. Well, I'll be surprised what happens.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:54 pm

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
So that's who's possibly remaking that. I would've thought that Firaxis (a company founded by Microprose founder Sid Meyer) would be the one to do that. Well, I'll be surprised what happens.

Sid Meiers played a coy little game during an interview, mentioning both MoM and Pirates, and stating that Firaxis would be doing a remake of one of 'em. It was Pirates, however.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:01 pm

Originally posted by fable
Sid Meiers played a coy little game during an interview, mentioning both MoM and Pirates, and stating that Firaxis would be doing a remake of one of 'em. It was Pirates, however.

Yep, Pirates. Still, I've got a feeling that there may be a good chance that they'll look at remaking some of their other classics, in time. I can feel it in my bones.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:29 pm

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Yep, Pirates. Still, I've got a feeling that there may be a good chance that they'll look at remaking some of their other classics, in time. I can feel it in my bones.

A nice blanket, a warm fireplace, a jug of wine and a woman can usually take care of that.