Its out! - Any first impressions?

smass · Post by **smass** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:48 am

I just saw fresh copies of Lionheart at my local EB this morning - I am considering buying a copy - but as always I value my fellow banshee members opinions - so if you have a copy please post your first impressions.

El_Gallo · Post by **El_Gallo** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:05 pm

I'm downloading it now. I live in Sweden and it won't be released here for a month or so, so I thought I should download it and try it and if I like I'll buy it when it's released here. As soon as I've installed and played it I'll get bak with some first impressions.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:31 pm

Originally posted by El_Gallo
I'm downloading it now. I live in Sweden and it won't be released here for a month or so, so I thought I should download it and try it and if I like I'll buy it when it's released here. As soon as I've installed and played it I'll get bak with some first impressions.

How are you downloading it, if you haven't purchased it, yet?

smass · Post by **smass** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:33 am

...I think I hear cricketts chirping...

I hope he means the demo....

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:07 pm

The demo is all over the place. I'm sure that's what he means

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:53 pm

Must be, @Ned. I'm expecting my review copy, Monday.

Incidentally, Republic: The Revolution (otherwise known as Republic: The Endlessly Delayed) has finally gone gold. Should be out in a few weeks, though I suspect it will hardly garner the applause it got three years ago at E3.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:32 am

I just checked out Interplay's forums. Nobody seems in ecstasy about the title. Most who have played through to the point where they leave the first big city are screaming mad. Apparently, Barcelona is very RPGish, but once you get outside the game morphs into Diablo, with hordes of identical monsters and the usual few bosses. Most comments do not appear to be coming from trolls. Some clearly are from people who will pass on early impressions as though they were final ones, which in turn are picked up by others who treat them as fact; but it's easy to discount these remarks, and note the posters who do it.

What's harder to dismiss are the debates between RPG fans and game devs that date back over an entire year in some threads, and show the devs opting for features that would deliberately make the game Diablo-like at certain points. I don't understand: if some people wanted pausable, BG2-style combat, and the devs wanted simple realtime, why couldn't they have designed pausable and realtime as game options?

I'm waiting for my copy, but this doesn't bode well from my perspective, which is that of a hardcore RPG player who enjoys planning battle strategy.

El_Gallo · Post by **El_Gallo** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 10:02 am

Well, I'm still in barcelona so I'm not sure how it will be after that but so far it seems like a decnt game although there are a lot of small things that bothers me. Like the fact that when distributing skill points there's only a + button so if change your mind you can't change it back.

Combat is pretty boring, the monsters move way too fast. I haven't tried ranged weapons yet but I can't imagine getting more than one shot in before they reach melee distance. And I don't understand why you can't click the one you want to attack when the game is paused since you can do pretty much everything besides that, even go into your inventory and change armor.

The thing that lifts the game a bit above average is the dialogue, especially when you run in to some historic figure. But I'm definitely not saying that it's anything like Baldur's Gate, Fallout or Planescape Torment but it's much better than Icewind Dale.

And yes I have downloaded the full version and I know that's not good but if it makes you feel better I will buy it when it's released here, if only to support Black Isle so that they'll continue to make games. I own every game they have made except Icewind Dale 2.

More comments when I've left Barcelona, I hope it isn't as bad as some people say.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:41 pm

Originally posted by El_Gallo
And yes I have downloaded the full version and I know that's not good but if it makes you feel better I will buy it when it's released here, if only to support Black Isle so that they'll continue to make games. I own every game they have made except Icewind Dale 2.

It's not a matter of what makes us feel better. It's a matter of stealing the product and effort of a bunch of people who are paid out of its projected sales. (And don't say you just wanted to try it out. That's what the demo was for.) I think you won't find too many friends on this board. Pirating software isn't a very popular passtime, here.

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:14 am

my first impression

Warning post might contain few minor spoilers.

well I never played Diablo so I won't say this game is diablo like.

The game does seem to be (for better or worse) a mix of RPG and just plain Hack & Slash. Talking to people and getting quests is alot of fun, there are plenty of dialogue options. There are plenty of quests to do in Barcelona alone. Talking to and helping historic figures is deffinatly a big plus, and the spins that the Devs put on some of these historic figures can sometimes be very entertaining. Also one good thing I like to say about this game is that you can play many different varieties of characters, by that I mean you can be good, evil, and somewhere in between as well. As an example (warning spoler ahead) at one point in the game you stumble into a goblin camp, where an Inquisitor is being held prisoner. At this point you are presented with many options of how to deal with the situation. If you really hate the Inquisition you can tell him that he deserves what he got and walk away. Or you can help him escape, using the "kill anything that get's in my way approach"(which is what he wants). Or you can use your diplomatic skills and persuade and lie your way out of the camp. This is just one example but there are more.

The combat system in the game however does not shine as well as the quest. You can pause during combat, but you are not allowed to make any attack or cast any spells or even make a move command while paused. You can drink potion, and switch what you are wearing and your weapons while paused. The pause button seems like a compromise between reatime combat fans and people who like to take it easy. I don't like the way this was done though and being a fan of previous Black Isle games I think this was a mistake on their part, just IMHO.

The story in this game is pretty solid (atleast the little of it that I know.) The fact that Black Isle also had to come up with a few centuries of alternate history is pretty cool too. However, I have not gotten too far into the story (been doing side quests for the past 6 hours.)

Overall, this is a good game in my opinion (not great, but good.) If you can get past it's Hack & Slash combat you can learn to enjoy it.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:17 pm

reatime combat fans and people who like to take it easy.

I suspect that's exactly what the devs thought when they made the game. What I don't understand is why they didn't provide players with options to run paused with full functionality or Diablo-realtime. I suppose they don't want to sell too many units; popularity of a game can be invidious, after all.

cjdevito · Post by **cjdevito** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:19 pm

Picked up Lionheart over the weekend but I can't really say much about it yet. Kept meaning to play it.... but.... killing storm troopers in SWG was more addictive

But...um... I'll get to it real soon now. Yeah.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:27 pm

Got it earlier today, just installed it a few hours ago, played it for only an hour. Initial impressions:

No automapping. Doesn't support notes. Gods, what were they thinking of?

Good voiceovers. Excellent music. Great backgrounds. Animations are awful: far too few frames used, so characters appear to "skate" quite a bit over the ground. Everybody walks--no run option!--but moves comically fast.

I wonder why they chose such a distant view of the 2D isometric field of vision? I wanted to be closer.

They must have awful movement AI, because the game won't support placing tagging even a modest distance from your PC as a destination. This, too, is highly annoying.

I like the dialog trees, which clearly label when a specific reply has been added by virtue of various abilities you have, such as extra diplomacy or intelligence. It also shows which ones will lead to combat.

Nice skills/perks selection screen as you advance.

Mouse movement is sloooooow, with a lag. I can tell right now this is going to be a big handicap when I leave town later and the game goes Diablo-like on me.

The plot is trite: you're yet-another Avatar/Holy One/Annoited One/etc, with the blood of a god/king/tax collector/you name it. Nice writing, but the quests are ridiculous: whoever heard of a highly select (*not* generic) group agreeing to initiate you without any background checks, the first day you arrive in a city, and having just met you? Saladin's bunch deserve a kick in their metal-plated behinds.

That's it, for now.

Skuld · Post by **Skuld** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:44 am

OK just about every computer RPG based in some sort of alternate history or fantasy realm places the PC as someone special, but they don't know it. What else would you be? An average stableboy who decided to strike out on his own... I don't think that'd allow for much plot.

Anyway I just finished the demo and here are my thoughts:
1. first thing I noticed mouse lags, and the only customisable options are video and sound
2. NOT for turn-based combat fans. while paused you can do everything but target something
3. even while standing still your character appears to be in mid stride
4. great skills/perks section for leveling, but could use a "-" button in addition to a "+" button incase you change your mind
5. great dialogue options, and I'd asume very dependant on each individual character
6. and there's a few unanswered questions, so if anyone knows of an online manual that'd be great(since there's a "force attack" button you should be able to bust open chests, but nope everyone needs lockpick)

And Fable I think the walk-don't-run thing is because I think your movement rate is dependent on Agility and possibly weight of crap in your inventory. I'm saying this because my character picked up a weapon that gave him +1 Agility and after that he seemed to move a little faster. So that would explain why there's no walk/run toggle. It'd be kinda unbalanced if you could just flip on run and race around while your enemies with the same agility are in your dust.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:36 am

Originally posted by Skuld
OK just about every computer RPG based in some sort of alternate history or fantasy realm places the PC as someone special, but they don't know it.

In all 8 games of the Wizardry series, what gets you quests and sells your services is the fact that you are a band of unattached mercenaries: the only people who combine at least a modicum of combat skill that remains unbought. You're not important for being the scion of some bloodline. Sir-Tech's RPG/strategy hybrid Jagged Alliance 2 takes that to its logical extension: your merc squad is literally a merc squad, and you're selling their services to the underdogs of a tropical island dictatorship. All the ills on the place are due to the powerful military in charge, with no local opposition, so its sensible that locals will turn to your mercs for a host of inventive, subsidiary quests.

In all 9 of the Might and Magic series, you were again a group of mercenary outsiders, the only people available who could tip the balance. This applies as well to the 3 Avernum and 2 Geneforge games, where your team functions once more as a mercenary party, one of the very few to have survived chaotic times without allying yourself to one or another side and settling down to bodyguarding.

In the various Krondor games (3, though only one had the golden touch), you were a sort of invisible presence who commanded the activities of a group of six major characters, only three of whom were in your party at a time. They were all either previously important, having rank, power and inventory far beyond the norm, or lucked into that group's company and had to go along for the ride. A similar approach is taken in yet-another brilliant RPG/strategy hybrid, King of Dragon Pass, where you function collectively to guide the fates of a Council and through it, the tribe it leads. Though everybody on the Council has a personality, none of them is you. And in neither the Krondor series no KoDP do you play a character who is actually "touched for greatness" by his/her bloodline.

If you'd said this was a matter of your opinion vs mine, somebody liking that plot device vs somebody who doesn't, I'd have had no problem accepting it. But when you make such a sweeping, statement as your opening line, I have to say the facts are otherwise. There have been simply too many extremely popular RPGs over the years that neatly avoided the whole "special guy with a gift that everybody automatically trusts" in PC-based RPGs. I'm not going to make the mistake of polarizing my stance; basically, I think the split is about 50/50, with the Krondor/KoDP "overlord" style furnishing a very small third group. I just happen to find the "Mr. Special" plot rather silly and somewhat lazy--an easy solution to a problem that can and should be dealt with more ingeniously, IMO. You are entitled to think otherwise, save when you try to tell me that all developers in effect are on your side.

And Fable I think the walk-don't-run thing is because I think your movement rate is dependent on Agility and possibly weight of crap in your inventory. I'm saying this because my character picked up a weapon that gave him +1 Agility and after that he seemed to move a little faster. So that would explain why there's no walk/run toggle. It'd be kinda unbalanced if you could just flip on run and race around while your enemies with the same agility are in your dust.

You seem to have read something other than I wrote: "Everybody walks--no run option!--but moves comically fast." Everybody. Not just my character. They all walk around like figures in a silent film being projected at an incorrect speed. The guards are particularly ridiculous. You think maybe they were influenced by the Keystone Kops?

Skuld · Post by **Skuld** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:52 am

I sincerely appologize for being wrong and for misreading what you wrote. I have played a little of the Kondor, Might and Magic, and Avernum games and didn't care for them, so my knowledge of CRPG's is limited since I'm rather picky. And I could never bring myself to buy a Wizardry game, and since downloading the game is totally out of the question, I doubt I'll be playing any of those any time soon. I could really care less which RPG's are popular, it's the ones that are actually good that I like and use for bases of comparison. Examples: BG Series, Arcanum, and Divine Divinity. OK, so there's not much diversity in the games I play. But that's what I like and therefore that's what I know.

Skuld · Post by **Skuld** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:29 am

One more thing I forgot to mention in my first post. The way in which you select which spell you're going to use is a little too much work. I need to pause every time I change spells because the skills window in which the spells are located takes up half the screen. I would liken it to having to go into your spellbook to select which spell you wanted to cast if you were playing BG. But one thing I kind of do like is that it holds the spell you last cast for quick casting again and again. But I don't have a manual since I only played the demo so there could be a better way to go about spellcasting.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:33 pm

Not a problem.

To the problems I listed before, I would now add a severe lack of balance in the game. You really can't make it sweet-talking alone, for example, because you can't count on party members (as you could in the Fallout series, or Arcanum) carrying the weight of battle for you. In fact, "companions" (as they are generically called) seem totally worthless. Unless you develop a few key skills early, you're sunk.

There also is a strong imbalance in some the quests. For instance, that Machiavelli bodyguard quest should never have been put so close to your entry to Barcelona. It belongs some ways back, after you've built up some levels. By comparsion, many of the tougher quests in BG2 were reserved for the Underdark. The illithi never would have been thrown at a party that just escaped from Irenicus' first dungeon. I'm not suggesting that the five or six combatants you face in Machiavelli's home are as dangerous as mind flayers.

But comparatively speaking, they'll eat up a first/second level novice alive.

smass · Post by **smass** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:49 am

...hmmm....think I'll wait for Greyhawk TOEE...

Skuld · Post by **Skuld** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:01 am

It's a decent game but i'd wait till the price went down a bit, and btw when does TOEE come out?