Kensai/Mage vs Berzerker/Mage vs multi Fighter/Mage
Kensai/Mage vs Berzerker/Mage vs multi Fighter/Mage
Which would serve best as a protagonist in a 6-member self-created party already containing a Sorceror?
tram
-
prime_dweller
- Posts: 25
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Any of them. As always, it depends on your preference. A (not so) quick comparison, anyway:
Kensai/Mage (level 13/28)
-------------------------
Pros: +4 to hit/+4 damage Kensai bonus, better speed factor, Kai, -2AC.
Cons: can't use bracers of extraordinary specialization (+1 to hit/+2 damage/ 1/2 attack), shield of balduran, helm of balduran and missile weapons. Can't use armor.
Has to be human, can't be Chaotic. To maximize potential, it is best to dual at level 13 to get more bonuses and the last extra 1/2 attack, making up for the lack of the Gauntlets.
This class is one of the best of the game, because THAC0 is low enough that he doesn't need to cast Tenser's Transformation most of the time, especially if you dual wield Crom Frayer (25 STR) and (insert favorite 1-Handed Weapon here).
The restrictions are tough, but the AC and THAC0 bonuses more than make up for the equipment you can't use.
As for missile weapons, get proficiency in axes. Later, if you download the Baldurdash tweaks, you can use the Big Metal Rod with Pulse Ammo anyway. Pity you can't reach level 29 mage and get the very last level 8 spell slot!
Berserker/Mage (level 9/30)
---------------------------
Pros: Rage (+2 to hit/+2 damage, immune to mind affecting spells, maze and imprisonment).
Cons: can't specialize in missile weapons (can still be proficient).
Has to be human, can't be Lawful. This one can be dualled at level 9 and not miss much.
You will be using rage and Tenser's Transformation for all tough fights anyway, so no THAC0 problems.
This class is also one of the best of the game, especially for solo play (not your case).
The restrictions are meaningless, and you can use the Gauntlets of extraordinary specialization for +1/2 attack without suffering the long starvation period until level 13 berserker/14 mage. The rage ability is PRICELESS, but you must remember to activate it, of course, and it doesn't last very long. Use the Baldurdash fix to correct a bug where rage didn't protect from stun.
Multi Fighter/Mage (level 24/20)
--------------------------------
Pros: No starvation period, lots of high-level fighter abilities.
Cons: Slow advancement, lower hit points than dual-class, low mage level and few mage high-level abilities.
Can't be human. Consider an elf fighter/mage for the +1 DEX/ infravision / sleep and charm immunity, or a gnome fighter/illusionist (-1 WIS, so what?).
A fun character. Choose lots of Greater Whirlwinds, and use them with Time Stop and a Vorpal weapon. Pity you only get 2 Time Stops (or 3 if gnome fighter/illusionist), but then even a level 31 generalist mage only gets 4.
However, this class has little use for Tenser's Transformation, except for the double hit points.
Overall
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Personally, since I always play a Lawful Evil human, I choose Kensai/Mage 13/28.
For you, since you have a sorcerer in the party, you can afford to neglect the mage part a bit in favor of a better fighter and still get all the mage protection and buffing spells, so maybe try a multi Fighter/Mage.
Kensai/Mage (level 13/28)
-------------------------
Pros: +4 to hit/+4 damage Kensai bonus, better speed factor, Kai, -2AC.
Cons: can't use bracers of extraordinary specialization (+1 to hit/+2 damage/ 1/2 attack), shield of balduran, helm of balduran and missile weapons. Can't use armor.
Has to be human, can't be Chaotic. To maximize potential, it is best to dual at level 13 to get more bonuses and the last extra 1/2 attack, making up for the lack of the Gauntlets.
This class is one of the best of the game, because THAC0 is low enough that he doesn't need to cast Tenser's Transformation most of the time, especially if you dual wield Crom Frayer (25 STR) and (insert favorite 1-Handed Weapon here).
The restrictions are tough, but the AC and THAC0 bonuses more than make up for the equipment you can't use.
As for missile weapons, get proficiency in axes. Later, if you download the Baldurdash tweaks, you can use the Big Metal Rod with Pulse Ammo anyway. Pity you can't reach level 29 mage and get the very last level 8 spell slot!
Berserker/Mage (level 9/30)
---------------------------
Pros: Rage (+2 to hit/+2 damage, immune to mind affecting spells, maze and imprisonment).
Cons: can't specialize in missile weapons (can still be proficient).
Has to be human, can't be Lawful. This one can be dualled at level 9 and not miss much.
You will be using rage and Tenser's Transformation for all tough fights anyway, so no THAC0 problems.
This class is also one of the best of the game, especially for solo play (not your case).
The restrictions are meaningless, and you can use the Gauntlets of extraordinary specialization for +1/2 attack without suffering the long starvation period until level 13 berserker/14 mage. The rage ability is PRICELESS, but you must remember to activate it, of course, and it doesn't last very long. Use the Baldurdash fix to correct a bug where rage didn't protect from stun.
Multi Fighter/Mage (level 24/20)
--------------------------------
Pros: No starvation period, lots of high-level fighter abilities.
Cons: Slow advancement, lower hit points than dual-class, low mage level and few mage high-level abilities.
Can't be human. Consider an elf fighter/mage for the +1 DEX/ infravision / sleep and charm immunity, or a gnome fighter/illusionist (-1 WIS, so what?).
A fun character. Choose lots of Greater Whirlwinds, and use them with Time Stop and a Vorpal weapon. Pity you only get 2 Time Stops (or 3 if gnome fighter/illusionist), but then even a level 31 generalist mage only gets 4.
However, this class has little use for Tenser's Transformation, except for the double hit points.
Overall
-------
Personally, since I always play a Lawful Evil human, I choose Kensai/Mage 13/28.
For you, since you have a sorcerer in the party, you can afford to neglect the mage part a bit in favor of a better fighter and still get all the mage protection and buffing spells, so maybe try a multi Fighter/Mage.
Thanks a lot for the comparison. Here's some points I thought of myself:
Can't use Bracers of AC 3. Kensai's AC bonus makes them obsolete. My sorc gets Vecna, so he has to settle for Robe of (Evil) Archmagi (AC 5, +1 saves) or the often overlooked Robe of the Apprenti (AC 3). Can't use Vhailor's Helm.
This is what I've been always saying... On the gauntlets: There are other people in my party always willing to use them
No Crom for protagonist. Why? Waste of Str points. There are 3 great strength enhancing items in the game: Crom (Str25), improved Angurduval and Fire Giant Belt (both Str22). Protagonist gets the +2 Str from Wrath tear to get his Str to 24 with Angurduval. With crom, the tear reward would be made obsolete. Let someone else use the Crom, I'll say.
Level 13 Kensai's base THAC0 is equivalent to lvl 17 Fighter. You're right, that hits anything.
This is the most powerful solo class IMHO, but I'm dropping this out of this contest as I'm looking for a tank who has some staying power and can fight without Tensor's.
If I understand correctly, gets high-level ability each time when levels up after obtaining 3M exp. Could level 18 times before hitting the cap. That's loads of abilities, but cannot cast those 9th level spells until hits 6 million exp (Compared to Kensai/Mage's 4.25 million). That's more like never with a full party.
I also am not a big fan of greater WWs as improved haste + belm in off hand does exactly the same.
The elf has -1 con to further lower this character's already low hit points. The +1 dex if useful only with missiles but I'm not planning to use missiles with this character.
The gnome cannot cast Necromancy spells. The sorc can do all the Abi-Halzim's I need, but Spirit Armor (AC 1) is necromantic. The only 4th level spell this guy uses is Stoneskin so that's not a big deal either. The +1 Int is nice (easy memorizing).
To me, the question is about who's the better fighter. Kensai/Mage re-activates Kensai at 2.75 million exp. Fighter/Illusionist reaches 17th level (to rival Kensai's THAC0) Fighter at 4.25 million, but starts getting GWWs at 3 million. Kensai/Mage can use tensor's to get a godlike THAC0 the gnome can't touch. GWWs make maybe 3 more attacks than a imp hasted guy but the Kensai gets more hits through againist -15 like ACs. I cannot decide still. Anyone out there with insights on the matter?
Originally posted by Prime Dweller:
<STRONG>
Kensai/Mage (level 13/28)
-------------------------
Pros: +4 to hit/+4 damage Kensai bonus, better speed factor, Kai, -2AC.
Cons: can't use bracers of extraordinary specialization (+1 to hit/+2 damage/ 1/2 attack), shield of balduran, helm of balduran and missile weapons. Can't use armor.
</STRONG>
Can't use Bracers of AC 3. Kensai's AC bonus makes them obsolete. My sorc gets Vecna, so he has to settle for Robe of (Evil) Archmagi (AC 5, +1 saves) or the often overlooked Robe of the Apprenti (AC 3). Can't use Vhailor's Helm.
Originally posted by Prime Dweller:
<STRONG>
To maximize potential, it is best to dual at level 13 to get more bonuses and the last extra 1/2 attack, making up for the lack of the Gauntlets.
</STRONG>
This is what I've been always saying... On the gauntlets: There are other people in my party always willing to use them
Originally posted by Prime Dweller:
<STRONG>
This class is one of the best of the game, because THAC0 is low enough that he doesn't need to cast Tenser's Transformation most of the time, especially if you dual wield Crom Frayer (25 STR) and (insert favorite 1-Handed Weapon here).
</STRONG>
No Crom for protagonist. Why? Waste of Str points. There are 3 great strength enhancing items in the game: Crom (Str25), improved Angurduval and Fire Giant Belt (both Str22). Protagonist gets the +2 Str from Wrath tear to get his Str to 24 with Angurduval. With crom, the tear reward would be made obsolete. Let someone else use the Crom, I'll say.
Level 13 Kensai's base THAC0 is equivalent to lvl 17 Fighter. You're right, that hits anything.
Originally posted by Prime Dweller:
<STRONG>
Berserker/Mage (level 9/30)
---------------------------
</STRONG>
This is the most powerful solo class IMHO, but I'm dropping this out of this contest as I'm looking for a tank who has some staying power and can fight without Tensor's.
Originally posted by Prime Dweller:
<STRONG>
Multi Fighter/Mage (level 24/20)
--------------------------------
Pros: No starvation period, lots of high-level fighter abilities.
Cons: Slow advancement, lower hit points than dual-class, low mage level and few mage high-level abilities.
</STRONG>
If I understand correctly, gets high-level ability each time when levels up after obtaining 3M exp. Could level 18 times before hitting the cap. That's loads of abilities, but cannot cast those 9th level spells until hits 6 million exp (Compared to Kensai/Mage's 4.25 million). That's more like never with a full party.
I also am not a big fan of greater WWs as improved haste + belm in off hand does exactly the same.
Originally posted by Prime Dweller:
<STRONG>
Can't be human. Consider an elf fighter/mage for the +1 DEX/ infravision / sleep and charm immunity, or a gnome fighter/illusionist (-1 WIS, so what?).
</STRONG>
The elf has -1 con to further lower this character's already low hit points. The +1 dex if useful only with missiles but I'm not planning to use missiles with this character.
The gnome cannot cast Necromancy spells. The sorc can do all the Abi-Halzim's I need, but Spirit Armor (AC 1) is necromantic. The only 4th level spell this guy uses is Stoneskin so that's not a big deal either. The +1 Int is nice (easy memorizing).
Originally posted by Prime Dweller:
<STRONG>
Overall
-------
Personally, since I always play a Lawful Evil human, I choose Kensai/Mage 13/28.
For you, since you have a sorcerer in the party, you can afford to neglect the mage part a bit in favor of a better fighter and still get all the mage protection and buffing spells, so maybe try a multi Fighter/Mage.</STRONG>
To me, the question is about who's the better fighter. Kensai/Mage re-activates Kensai at 2.75 million exp. Fighter/Illusionist reaches 17th level (to rival Kensai's THAC0) Fighter at 4.25 million, but starts getting GWWs at 3 million. Kensai/Mage can use tensor's to get a godlike THAC0 the gnome can't touch. GWWs make maybe 3 more attacks than a imp hasted guy but the Kensai gets more hits through againist -15 like ACs. I cannot decide still. Anyone out there with insights on the matter?
tram
If you have Whirlwinds, you don't need Belm. Maybe there's some other nice off-hand weapon, a shield or perhaps even a two-hander that will be more effective in Greater Whirlwinds. You will basically face two types of fights: Tough (you use Whirlwind) and easy (you win no matter what). Belm is not in there, although Improved Haste + Belm + Critical Strike could be.
Berserker Rage is great, but made partially obsolete with really low saves. The need for immunities is greatly reduced by having party members that can step in if things go wrong.
Unless you plan on resting every half hour, the Gnome's extra spell slots should make a huge difference. That's an extra Time Stop (stringing this after the other two means getting in two more Greater Whirlwinds), an extra Simulacrum, an extra Project Image and an extra Mislead. Clones are absolutely game-breaking when used right.
Berserker Rage is great, but made partially obsolete with really low saves. The need for immunities is greatly reduced by having party members that can step in if things go wrong.
Unless you plan on resting every half hour, the Gnome's extra spell slots should make a huge difference. That's an extra Time Stop (stringing this after the other two means getting in two more Greater Whirlwinds), an extra Simulacrum, an extra Project Image and an extra Mislead. Clones are absolutely game-breaking when used right.
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