gender differences in RPGs

smanifesta · Post by **smanifesta** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:01 am

Lost my stupid password/access to my original email. Was amirthrade, but am now just lil' old smanifesta.

Got to thinking today for an article I'm planning on writing (for my own personal offline zine) and wanted some feedback. I hear a lot of discussion among feminist critics of video games (and some women in general) that games are de facto antifeminist. However, I find that in a lot of RPGS (for example, both Morrowind and Neverwinter nights) there is a great deal of equality when you choose a male character or a female character - in terms of strength, speed, skills, etc.

At the same time, pick a female character in the original campaign of NWN and you miss out on the ladies who, according
to my boyfriend, ask you out. (Since I gnerally choose a girl, I would have never known had he not pointed it out).

What I'd love is some feedback from people regarding:

1 - Do you feel there are differences in SKILLS & Combat between differently gendered characters in RPGs?
2 - Have you ever played as both and noticed a difference between the male storyline and the female storyline?
3 - Any games outside of the NWN saga and Morrowind that I might want to check out to talk about these better?

Thanks!

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:43 pm

Well I haven't played all that many RPGs, but in the Baldur's Gate saga, there isn't really any difference between playing male or female, aside from the romances in Baldur's Gate 2. There are no combat/skill differences. Same applies to other infinity engine games, like Icewind Dale.

Mind you, I don't reckon it's exclusive to RPGs. I have heard things like people prefer playing as a female character in FPS games, because they usually have slightly slimmer avatars and are thus harder to shoot.

I don't think it's equality between male and female character skills that feminists have a problem with, but the portrayal of female characters - skimpy clothing, for example.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:11 pm

Originally posted by Georgi

I don't think it's equality between male and female character skills that feminists have a problem with, but the portrayal of female characters - skimpy clothing, for example.

I am inclined to agree. I am always uncertain about the way that female characters are portrayed in games. While I appreciate the fact that they are equally strong, they are almost always depicted to fit stereotypical notions of male fantasy. Nearly all of them are large-busted, and skinny enough to classify as anorexic.

Though to be fair, a lot of the male characters appear unrealistically 'heroic' as well

1 - Do you feel there are differences in SKILLS & Combat between differently gendered characters in RPGs? I have never noticed this.

2 - Have you ever played as both and noticed a difference between the male storyline and the female storyline? Yes, certainly in SoA where the romances are concerned gender can impact side plot. However, the main storyline is not altered.

3 - Any games outside of the NWN saga and Morrowind that I might want to check out to talk about these better? Ask Fable

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:02 pm

Heh.

The only stereotyping I've seen in attributes is a bonus to charisma for female characters and to strength, for male characters, in a few RPG games--and that's silly, really. Because men, from a female perspective, possess the greater charisma. If female characters need a realistic attribute boost (and it's debatable that either gender does), constitution is more logical, because the *average* woman possesses more stamina than her *average* male counterpart. But again, that differs from person to person, culture to culture.

Where you might think to find sexual stereotyping is in the actual roleplaying of the games, but there's surprisingly little of this. The Ultima series had some, but then, Garriott built it out of notions drawn from Malory, where women cast spells or fluttered around screaming for help, and men cast spells or wielded big weapons. What's most objectionable in his game series is how the choice of your PC gradually narrowed, dropping out women, and then other races, until finally you only had one white Anglo-Saxon male avatar. Bah.

By and large, though, CRPGs have been free of a lot of rigid socio-sexual roles. Two possible reasons may be the relatively recent appearance of AD&D-type playing, and the personal computer. For sexual stereotyping, you really need to go back to the poorer grade of fantasy novels of the 1950s, and earlier. There's a lot of awful stuff from back then.

Valahan · Post by **Valahan** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:43 am

Well, usually I find there aren't any differences between male/female characters in most RPG games. Like georgi stated, the romances are the only difference in Baldurs Gate 2. Same as IWD, there are no differences, just appearance/preference/Role playing for some.

About FPS females, I know for sure it is true in ONE game, at least.

I used to be part of one of the top 20 clans of Tribes. The males were easier to hit(wider frame) but had a bit more life. The females were slightly harder to hit(thinner frame), had a little less life, but moved a little faster and flew(with jet packs) a little further(lighter). All the flag runners were females because they were harder to hit and faster. The defenders and heavy assault troops were usually male characters. Pretty balanced out, other than that.

Aside from that, I don't think there is usually a difference, unless of course it is called for in the story.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:36 am

@Smanifesta, if you want a sense of how gender is treated differently in RPGs, you'd have a lot better luck experimenting with MMORPGs. Of course, these tend to reflect a lot of the gender bias of a given culture (and its sub-cultures) rather than of a handful of programmers, but it will provide you with a variety of experiences upon which to base some personal observations.

smanifesta · Post by **smanifesta** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:02 pm

first off...

Thank you! I've really enjoyed reading your insight.

I actually tend to agree with most of you that its the *images* that most feminists (here I'd argue that its a certain TYPE of feminist) dislike. Personally, as a feminist, and a girl, and an RPG player, I don't really mind the images (clothing) per say. As the average female in NWN or Morrowind is generally wearing more clothes than the average day with Christina Aguilera. But I digress.

Basically, I'm starting a home-grown, old fashioned, xeroxed at Kinko's zine and my original idea for an article was a first person response peice to how I, as a female player, note gender differences in RPG games. Moving forward in the process, this might change, but basically, I was looking for a little input from my fellow players. Also, its just come to my attention that there's a company that's making "feminist friendly" RPGS. Reading the description, (I can't remember the name, but I'll dig it up tonight) I thought to myself "I can't think of anything I'd rather play less."

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:23 pm

Re: first off...

Originally posted by smanifesta
Thank you! I've really enjoyed reading your insight.

Thank you for choosing to post your question, here.

Also, its just come to my attention that there's a company that's making "feminist friendly" RPGS. Reading the description, (I can't remember the name, but I'll dig it up tonight) I thought to myself "I can't think of anything I'd rather play less."

I'm curious which RPGs you're referring to, so please do post some names when you get a chance.

Btw, another RPG you might want to take a look at is King of Dragon Pass. Gender does figure into the game, in that female deities passed on the RuneQuest universe tend (to judge from this game) to be more about fertility and healing, with male deities focusing on war and trade. That said, one of the most fearsome deities in KoDP is female, while one of the most powerful male deities is concerned with raising animals. What's more, the group of people you can draw from for your seven-person council are allied quite randomly to different deities without bias to gender; so I've had a male member of my troop who was the best healer, and a female warrior who was literally a legend throughout the land.

KoDP is extremely plot-heavy, in a very different sort of way: there are literally 500+ plots, some interlinked, most of which can occur in any given season during a game--or not at all. (Each plot requires a selection from 4-6 multiple choices. There are no bad or good choices, but everything has an effect on the game's progress.) While certain cults that may wander through from time to time are gender-limited (one, dealing with the removal of evil spirits, is exclusively male, while another, whose function I forget, is exclusively female), there's an admirable assortment of men and women in all attitudes, intentions, and walks of life.

smanifesta · Post by **smanifesta** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:26 pm

Fable - thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out. Is it new/old/etc?

The "feminist friendly" RPG was something I found a mention to in ***** Magazine (feminist response to pop culture). Generally, 9/10, they are very "anti" the gaming industry (the one reason I don't love them - not that it doesn't need work, but still. knitting gets an A+ while computer games are looked upon as the devil. I do both! But the last thing I want to play is "Knitter: The Adventure"). I'll look it up and post it when I get home.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:46 pm

Originally posted by smanifesta
Fable - thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out. Is it new/old/etc?

It's been out 3-4 years, and is a real sleeper. The game wasn't released on store shelves in the US or most of Europe, though it was a enormous hit in...Finland.

The "feminist friendly" RPG was something I found a mention to in ***** Magazine (feminist response to pop culture). Generally, 9/10, they are very "anti" the gaming industry (the one reason I don't love them - not that it doesn't need work, but still. knitting gets an A+ while computer games are looked upon as the devil. I do both! But the last thing I want to play is "Knitter: The Adventure"). I'll look it up and post it when I get home.

Now, if it was only Quilting: The Adventure, my wife would love it.

I look forward to hearing your response (if you have time) to KoDP.

smanifesta · Post by **smanifesta** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:01 pm

How about "Stichery: The Adventure" Choose from 5 different craft systems, complete with a final battle at the two-for-one sale at the Yarn Barn?

I mock, but I actually mock myself.

The game is called Syberia (and there's a Syberia 2)

This is the review I read in the magazine:

"Kate dumps her cheating boyfriend....finds and saves an aging diva, and finally chooses further adventuiring over fulfilling the demands of her corporate employer" (Yawn)

The MobyGames description sounds...slightly more exciting?
"You are Kate Walker, a lawyer that has been entrusted by the Universal Toy Company to negotiate the takeover of an old luxury toy and automaton factory.
Over the centuries, the factory has been developing clockwork devices, specializing in perpetual mechanical movement. The factory's ambitions, however, are ill-suited to the contemporary economic climate, and the elderly Anna Voralberg, at the helm of the Valadilene factory for more than half a century, has decided to sell up"

The graphics are cool though.

Huh.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:47 pm

Pretty exciting, agreed. Btw, although it isn't an RPG, have you ever tried the graphical adventure, The Longest Journey? Not only is the main character a woman, but she has to deal with all the hazards of daily life, including being hit on by the jerk who lives in the same group of apartments. It's refreshing to see this in a game, though (thankfully) the developers didn't spend time trying to underline the gender experience.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:10 pm

Ever try Parasite Eve, smanifesta?

I just had a thought. There is this one famous game (and a sequel for it) on the Sony Playstation called Parasite Eve, which features a female protagonist. The game play is something along the lines of a solid RPG. I have played it (a cousin of mine pretty much gave it to me), and was wondering if you have. Overall, it does seem to be one game where you have a female protagonist that, to my interpretation, doesn't truly fit the common mold of female characters in RPGs.

The sequel, Parasite Eve 2, I honestly have little knowledge about, since I haven't really played or seen it.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: Ever try Parasite Eve, smanifesta?

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
I just had a thought. There is this one famous game (and a sequel for it) on the Sony Playstation called Parasite Eve, which features a female protagonist. The game play is something along the lines of a solid RPG. I have played it (a cousin of mine pretty much gave it to me), and was wondering if you have. Overall, it does seem to be one game where you have a female protagonist that, to my interpretation, doesn't truly fit the common mold of female characters in RPGs.

The sequel, Parasite Eve 2, I honestly have little knowledge about, since I haven't really played or seen it.

Definatly a worthwhile game, seeing as it came from Squaresoft, before they sold out with Enix (BOO! HISS!).

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:35 am

The "Feisty" voice-set in NWN springs to mind here, with it's battle-cry of "Prepare to be beaten by a girl!" I'm using it for a halfling monk at the moment, with a cutesy portrait.

Another thing worth considering is authority in RPGs. Using NWN again, Aribeth...
SPOILER
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[...is not only a traitor, but even when she is on the 'good' side she is still subordinate to Nasher. To be fair, Desther is also a traitor (abandoned by a female deity), however Aarin Gend is not, and Fenthick is simply misled. As Aribeth is the sole main female NPC excluding henchmen (henchpersons?

), this does imply a particular position re gender.
In BG2, Queen Ellesime(sp?), while the ruler of Suldanesselar, only really comes into the game as the typical 'Rescue the Princess' Princess, rather than as a power in her own right. Bodhi is subordinate to Irenicus, though the two seek the same goals and are supposedly siblings.
On-topic again, consider the elven gods of the Forgotten Realms. Corellon Larethian is the male head of the 'good' elven gods, while the evil drow are ruled by Lolth, an evil female deity.

One is reminded a little of the title of Private Jessica Lynch's book, I am a soldier, too, but that line of thought will probably cause some arguments so better if I drop it...

In short, there does seem to be a degree of implicit gender bias in RPGs to my mind.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:29 am

Bodhi is subordinate to Irenicus, though the two seek the same goals and are supposedly siblings.

I never got the sense that Bodhi was subordinate to anybody, or that she was even constitutionally capable of conceiving such an idea. The plan was Irenicus', but the brute force was Bodhi's. Even so, and knowing the benefits she can gain from it, Bodhi still ignores the plan wherever it contradicts her curiosity and sense of malicious mischievousness.

On the other hand, I have to wonder what bad, paranoid 1950s sci-fi film the TSR/AD&D folks got their Dark Elves matriarchal society from. Why couldn't this culture that shouts "Hey, We're Lawful Evil, come to our sandbox and get buried!" have been an example of male domination? It seems to me as though somebody's adolescent fears were being projected the day they came up with the Dark Elves.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:39 pm

Re: first off...

Originally posted by smanifesta
Personally, as a feminist, and a girl, and an RPG player, I don't really mind the images (clothing) per say. As the average female in NWN or Morrowind is generally wearing more clothes than the average day with Christina Aguilera. But I digress.

Ah, but when you talk about Christina et al, you're ignoring the context of RPGs. If you're playing a mighty warrior about to plunge into melee, a bikini is probably not going to be the most effective armour one could have.

The reason for scantily clad females in RPGs is aesthetic - to appeal to the target market for the games.

Basically, I'm starting a home-grown, old fashioned, xeroxed at Kinko's zine and my original idea for an article was a first person response peice to how I, as a female player, note gender differences in RPG games. Moving forward in the process, this might change, but basically, I was looking for a little input from my fellow players.

You might want to check out WomenGamers.com - they have various articles about that sort of thing.

BTW, my comments earlier were addressing the difference in playing a female character, which seemed to be what you are asking about. I'd agree there is more difference in the way that female NPCs are portrayed.