What can change the nature of a man?

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:41 pm

I know I have a tendency to start threads and then not reply to them and let them die away. For that I am sorry. But I have a question for you all: what can change the nature of a man? Is it really regret? Can pain (both mental and otherwise) change who you are?

Yes, I've been playing Tormant again. That game is just too damn good.

ObsidianReturns · Post by **ObsidianReturns** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:31 pm

Experience changes people.

Having children, losing friends of family, living through something terrible, are all examples of events that can change someone.

As we age, and experience more things, I think it is healthy for people to grow. We all know friends from highschool who never really left it. Who are now 34 with kids who really haven't changed.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:47 pm

After having went through the last 7 years or so, I can say that pain and regret can impact our lives in fundamental and traumatic ways. From my own perspective, I'm not sure if anything else even comes close to altering the way somebody thinks and feels. Maybe much of this is related to loss. When something you hold precious is wrenched from you, often a profound void is left in its place. Not only does this engender pain, but it also initiates a sense of regret. You wonder how you could have done things differently, you wish desperately that you had taken an alternate course of action. That sort of internal soul searching leaves us changed forever.

But, as Obsiian remarks, this is all part of our emotional and mental growth. While certain events in life can leave us in agony, they also significantly shape our understanding of self, of others, and of life generally.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:48 pm

Life's changes can indeed make us grow, but that doesn't necessarily mean that our nature has changed. I think the kind of change we're talking about is pretty radical.

As well as asking what can change the nature of a man, we should also ask why would someone's nature's change? I don't think it necessarily has to be a self-conscious process, but I do think that regret gives us a reason to change our nature. If we're happy with ourselves and what we have done, what reason would there be to change such a thing?

BTW, you're not going to make me die a horrible death if I answer the question incorrectly, are you?

Valahan · Post by **Valahan** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:53 pm

Hmmm, what can change the nature of a person? I don't know really. But I think I have a good idea.

Death and Depression. Having lived the last 5 years after my mom died was and is tough. I was always a person to stay inside and go out from time to time(and I had alot of friends), then my mom died and I went in a downward spiral. I now sit at my computer 24/7 and surf the net and play games(especially Infinity Engine games). I never go out(unless to see a movie like LotR). I don't party and I only have 1 'REAL' friend. Real as in it's the only person i enjoy spending alot of time with. I don't know why, but it just is.

The 'nature' of me, has changed a bit. I am still a nice guy, but now i'm a shy lonely loner, who doesn't have confidence. I am 20 years old in February. I finished high school, but decided not to go to college cause I hated school.

I never held a job, still don't, but know that I must soon(life sux with no money, but angst holds me back). My last girlfriend was about 6 months before my mom died(8th grade). I can't even talk to anyone I don't know. They must initiate dialogue, and then if it interests me I will participate and open up, a little. If not interesting, I just sit back and listen, but I still get to know the person. That does leave me being able to talk, barely.

I have been hanging out with a LARP group, for about 6 years, and still I can't go up to most of them and 'chat it up' it's more like a 'hello' then wander around and be a loner thing. It's called Amtgard and it's the only excercise I get. Plus I am into medieval stuff. Amtgard

Moving on, I know my life is screwed up and I should change myself, but it's so hard. I like this girl, but I wanna get to know her but I can't let myself get to know her because I am shy and so self conscious.

If we're happy with ourselves and what we have done, what reason would there be to change such a thing?

What if we aren't happy but can't change?

How does one let themselves change?

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:04 pm

In my oppinion - we change ourselves. Because we either want to or have to.

Experiences, life, events - all things effect us in some degree and we decide with ourselves how much these things will effect us.

The decisions we then take based on these elements either makes us change or not.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:05 pm

@Valahan,
reading your post was like looking at a very eerie echo... I have actually experiencd most of what you describe, and I know exactly what you have been going through.

Unfortunately, it is never easy to get out of that sort of rut. What it takes, is a desire that comes from deep inside. Often that means a serious kicking of yourself in the butt, and just dragging yourself out of the hole by your boot straps. Also, foster those 3 D contacts. A positive support network, and one that encourages you to actually go out and spend time away from the computer are vital.

This can also be achieved by finding a job, hopefully one you like. And this also provides you with increased self-confidence and an income. Works wonders, I assure you.

Anyway... This is quite off topic, so I'll stop here

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:39 pm

Education, pure and simple. Whether it be life's harsh realities, or open minded inspirations. It is what we learn of ourselves - first and foremost - whilst we choose the paths (and mentors) available to us, and what we learn of of each other along the way. Then it is how we appropriate that knowledge given our life experiences and levels of empathy. Just my thoughts anyway.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:21 pm

Originally posted by Yshania
Education, pure and simple. Whether it be life's harsh realities, or open minded inspirations. It is what we learn of ourselves - first and foremost - whilst we choose the paths (and mentors) available to us, and what we learn of of each other along the way. Then it is how we appropriate that knowledge given our life experiences and levels of empathy. Just my thoughts anyway.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this but I think I'll get back to you tomorrow as today's been a long day and I'm feeling tired and know that I'll make little sense.

edit=> what the hell, I make little sense anyway and by tomorrow I won't know what I was talking about (see, I've got a short memory and attention span)
Experience (be it education or things we learn along the way) can certanly change you but the change will not be deep. Experience will never change your nature We have an ability to filter out knowledge which does not coincide with out beliefs and to take information which does coincide with our beliefs more seriosly. For example if I read Nietzsche and strongly belive in God but agree with his stands on women, my belief in God is not likely to be changed but what I already believe about women will be reinforced. I will be changed from the experience but my nature will remain.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:10 am

Worth what you paid for it

@Vicsun,

1/ Don't read Nietzsches ever again. If you are going to read philosophy try Louis P. Pojman, or Betrand Russell. While your there try real hard not to get educated.

2/ From what you say your definition of Nature is such that no influence can change it. You suggest that a large enough influence might 'regret' or 'pain', but I sense that you believe Nature is immutable. So with your definition Nature can not be changed. BTW - This is called the strong determinist position.

@Valahan,

I am alot like the way you suggest you are and the best advice I can give is do stuff. Set yourself a goal and try to achieve it. It is better if it is something you want or like to do but what the hey, anything will do.

I had a low period in my life and getting a wrecked car and fixing it up to drive around in turned me around.

The fear of rejection can be crippling but it is very insubstantial, and most people share it (I'm talking about being shy). Face your fear, talk to a stranger (You know the shop assistant/bus driver person waiting for the train) every day/month what-ever. The most sucessful pickup artists still fail more than they suceed they just don't let it bug them. - Curdis !

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:05 am

Re: Worth what you paid for it

Originally posted by Curdis

2/ From what you say your definition of Nature is such that no influence can change it. You suggest that a large enough influence might 'regret' or 'pain', but I sense that you believe Nature is immutable. So with your definition Nature can not be changed. BTW - This is called the strong determinist position. Curdis !

Not really. To get my view imagine your life as a tower or a pyramid: Your base is formed when you are very young. That I consider your nature. As you get more experience you build up on your the base you already have. Experience is equivalent to new building blocks you put on top of your tower, altering the tower, but not changing it fundamentally. Changing your nature would be like changing the base of that tower. As a result you might look on your old experiences differently as well as looking with a new light on anything new you experience.

To sum what I said up: experience will not change your nature, but if you change your nature the way you look at experience will change

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Re: Worth what you paid for it

Originally posted by Vicsun
Not really. To get my view imagine your life as a tower or a pyramid: Your base is formed when you are very young. That I consider your nature. As you get more experience you build up on your the base you already have. Experience is equivalent to new building blocks you put on top of your tower, altering the tower, but not changing it fundamentally. Changing your nature would be like changing the base of that tower. As a result you might look on your old experiences differently as well as looking with a new light on anything new you experience.

To sum what I said up: experience will not change your nature, but if you change your nature the way you look at experience will change

Lets try and straighten up your view for clarity. 'Base formed when very young' - before one month/year/more...?

What influences in your view act on individuals beyond experience? If there are none (and I'm interested in what else there can be) then my previous response about your definition seems correct.

This leads to: Nothing can change nature. So it is immaterial whether, or not,the way you look at your experience will change.

My philosophy mentor's big thesis was 'Is this ****roach my lover'

so clarity is very important to me. - Curdis !
I must ignore philosophy and religion on this forum
I must ignore philosophy and religion on this forum
I must ignore philosophy and religion on this forum
I must ignore philosophy and religion on this forum
I must ignore philosophy and religion on this forum
I must ignore philosophy and religion on this forum
I must ignore philosophy and religion on this forum

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:08 am

Re: Re: Worth what you paid for it

My reply to this question will be depending on your definition of nature:

Originally posted by Vicsun
To get my view imagine your life as a tower or a pyramid: Your base is formed when you are very young. That I consider your nature. As you get more experience you build up on your the base you already have. Experience is equivalent to new building blocks you put on top of your tower, altering the tower, but not changing it fundamentally. Changing your nature would be like changing the base of that tower. As a result you might look on your old experiences differently as well as looking with a new light on anything new you experience.

To sum what I said up: experience will not change your nature, but if you change your nature the way you look at experience will change

And don't read Freud again!

My definition of nature (not a term used in psychology since it's too unspecific) would be basic personality traits. A basic personality trait is a predisposition towards a response pattern or a behaviour pattern. It is genetically determined to about 50%, and aquired from environmental factors to 50%. Environmental factors are everything from your mother having an infection when she is pregnant with you, prenatal exposure to virus, hormonal levels and toxins, as well as sociocultural factors such as upbringing, and general learning.

According to cross-cultural, longitudinal (over long time) studies, basic personality traits do not change much across life time, regardless of traumatic and happy events in adulthood. On the contrary, our basic traits have a large effect on how such events will affect us. So, my answer to your question is that serious injury, or disease affecting the neurobiological mechanism that determine, mediate or interact with environmental factors to create a persons "nature", or personality traits will change those. Dementia, severe brain injury and neuropsychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia, for instance.

However, personlity traits deals with very basic stuff such as trigger levels for basic anxiety and aggression, introversion-extraversion (and no, this does not mean withdrawn versus outgoing as some popular tests may lead people to believe). Our basic traits does not say a lot about how we are going to behave in a certain situation. Traits that may have a prediction value for how people actually behave, are much more detailed and much more determined by learning history. Those are sometimes called charater traits and are much more changeble. Examples of events that can affect a persons charater traits is like Ysh suggests, education that bring new insights and make us review ourselves and interpret events differently from before, and as Valahan and DW mentions, traumatic life events such as death of close ones, war, rape, separations, catastrophies - anything that has a traumatic effect on the individual. A trauma is defined as an event that shatter the foundations of a persons's life, force the person to go through horrible things that were not within his or her frames of reference before.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:47 pm

Yes, life shapes us. Pain, happiness, depression. I felt that meself last year.
I've changed inside and outside, and most people notice that.

'Life is pain. Pain is Chaos. Chaos is change.' - Calderón de Mejía

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:57 pm

Originally posted by Vicsun
I disagree wholeheartedly with this but I think I'll get back to you tomorrow as today's been a long day and I'm feeling tired and know that I'll make little sense.

edit=> what the hell, I make little sense anyway and by tomorrow I won't know what I was talking about (see, I've got a short memory and attention span)
Experience (be it education or things we learn along the way) can certanly change you but the change will not be deep. Experience will never change your nature We have an ability to filter out knowledge which does not coincide with out beliefs and to take information which does coincide with our beliefs more seriosly. For example if I read Nietzsche and strongly belive in God but agree with his stands on women, my belief in God is not likely to be changed but what I already believe about women will be reinforced. I will be changed from the experience but my nature will remain.

Ok, I hear what you are saying, but then it depends how you define nature I guess. For instance, man is not born a racist, man is not born a paedophile. Something happens along the way during the nurturing period that changes the individuals predisposition and understanding of what is right and wrong. And this right and wrong differs between cultures. By "nature" all humans are born with the inherent need to survive, all young children are selfish and to a point aggressive, and need to be socialised, need to be set guidelines as to what is acceptable behaviour (within their own community). It is possible, on occasion, to "unteach" or "unlearn" *some* beliefs, but I don't consider beliefs to be the only make up of "nature" just a building block within the construction.

As CE stated, physical injury is more likely to change an individual fundementally than is experience...but if we take physical injury or disease out of the equation, then what we are left with is lifes experiences and teachings, and then the individuals ability to learn and adapt accordingly.