Hardcore rules

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:12 am

I have collected a framework the rules for hardcore playing:

game version: original+bonus mechants
difficulty: hard
keep xp limit
not allowed:
- steal in shop (unlimited money)
- recharge wands in shop (unlimited charge)
- use of quick items with image/simulacrum (unlimited charge)
- cast project image, summon insect (too strong)
- use blade barrier with invisibility (too strong)
- summon more creatures than 5 in total (inculding the single simulacrum)
battle setup, inside a battle
- head-to-head fight won by strategy not luck
- a battle starts when "entering" the area
not allowed:
- save/reload while the room is not cleared
- rest (eg. to set up many snares)
- attack the enemies while they are blue
- fire into the dark (eg. cloudkill or fireball)
- move around from multiple enemies with the same speed, just to avoid melee
- use zone spells with leaving the area
- kill the enemies one by one by calling them out of the area
- re-equip the staff of magi
allowed
- save/reload before the battle
- rest before the battle
- to move into position and set up defenses while the enemies are blue
- fire into an already spied area
- move to better tactical position
- use zone spells with the correct counter-defense
- kill enemies one-by-one while advancing
goal:
- minimize rests
- minimize save/reload
party (modes)
- normal
- solo (no help from NPCs)
- multiplayer party

What do you guys think about it?

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:02 pm

Sorry, I meant Insect Plague and not Summon Insect.

In the meantime I have checked both Insect Plague and Project Image in the AD&D rulebook. There are serious differences.

Their incredible strength in BG2 is a design/programming error at the Bioware's side.

Kane · Post by **Kane** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:15 pm

I more or less play this way already

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 2:32 pm

I'm sorry but i dont really agree with your rules...mainly because...well they are your rules...no offense but rules shouldn't be made just because one person thinks they should be that way. Playing by the rules you listed, if you really play that way completely makes the game almost impossible to play and annoying...who wants to stay up all night fighting the same monsters because they are too proud to shoot a fireball or cloudkill from far away....don't get me wrong I'm not saying its ok to abuse a known bug eg summoning more than 5 creatures...at the same time we should not go around acting like we are too stupid to make ourselves invisible with a blade barrier even though we know we can.

[This message has been edited by Genesis (edited 03-01-2001).]

Blueman · Post by **Blueman** » Thu Mar 01, 2001 3:53 pm

I've seen several topics about what people should and should not do. I keep thinking to myself, these things are in the game so they are fair game. Cloud Kill, Project Image and Insect Plague are normal spells, so if you get to that level why not use them.

But, to each their own. Play however you like!

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 12:05 pm

I have continued the work with the help of some discussions here in the forum. First, I try to summarize the motives behind the hardcore rules:

"There are some features, bugs and weak AI behaviour which shouldn't be exploited to get a more balanced game play and more challenge. Everybody could choose any subset of these rules to satisfy his playing style."

And here are the modifications (additions) in the new version (V1.03):
not allowed:
- use Cloak of Mirroring, Staff of Magi (too strong)
- use spell triggers/contingencies with attack (red) spells (too strong)
battle setup
- a battle ends either at win or give up (exit the area)
in battle, it is not allowed:
- wait that the spells wear off
- exit the room and close the door (except the case of giving up)
- abuse dialogs

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:06 am

I have created a new thread about: Strategy gaming with RPG/campaign style at: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000204.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000204.html[/url]

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:16 am

Of course one shouldnt use the enemies limited intelligence against them, thats poor roleplaying. Further, it isnt hard to brag about killing a dragon with a finger of death when he is blue, since, if you fail you just reload. The best point you made was to attack red-only enemies (unless you are to assasinate them for a quest or similar). Once i attacked the silverdragon while blue, and it took her like a minute to turn red, by then she was badly injured. Since that wasnt very fun i stopped the cheating.

zorac · Post by **zorac** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 9:16 am

Nice Kovi, but I think you are biased against magic-user. So I would add:

not allowed:
Carsomyr, Mace of Disruption, Ring of Gaxx, shield of Balduran and Crom Fayer (too strong).

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 10:59 am

Zorac: You are right. But I haven't soloed through with pure warriors, so I don't know what is too strong for them. And I have played too long without bonus merchants, so don't have enough experience with their stuff. Still, here is my opion:
I have marked some items (Staff of Magi, Cloak of Mirroring) because they make the player generally invincible (against magical damage). Other items don't have such power. There are a lot of weapons which could do a good damage against a specific enemy or shields/armour/etc. which could offer protections from a specific enemy/attack type. I think that is OK.
Maybe the only rule I would suggest is that the Crom Faeyr should be used only by clerics (like the Corsomyr can be used only by Paladins).

Genesis · Post by **Genesis** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 11:06 am

Umm sort of like the staff of magi can only be used by magic users rule you forgot?

Kovi · Post by **Kovi** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:02 pm

Yeah, but as I wrote Staff of Magi is too defensively too strong (spell-trap + invisibility). Mages will have some other nice weapons like staff of power or staff of rynn.

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 9:15 pm

hile the item is legal , it is a FAIR game, thus i disagree not allow using stuffs like staff of magi. they are designed to be there, if you don't want it, just sell it.

same for me with the legal spells and armors.

if you guys want those things out, complain to bioware. and you guys will probably have more bad news in the expansion, cos there will be more powerful spells and items in there

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 9:19 pm

The Staff of the Magi of the game is nothing compared to the PnP version, its really waterdown.
Its also a legal PnP weapon.

Drakron.

ltldrgn1 · Post by **ltldrgn1** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 6:13 am

I agree with most of the rules, however, the argument seems to be mostly concerning the dragons (attacking while still blue). Most dragons are usually very arrogant and don't think of you (character) as much of a threat. Also the dragons in BGII are considered around the juvenile age, i.e. not very powerful at all. Fight an adult (253 H.P., + more powerful breath weapon and better spell casting abilities) or mature adult (312 H.P., still better breath weapon and spell casting) it will be much harder and you probably would welcome the attack while still blue. Keep in mind that bioware can't integrate the flyby attacks.
From the M.M. "...A Red Dragon lands to attack small, weak creatures rather than obliterating them with it's breath weapon..."

But overall have fun with the game.

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Beware of that which sees without eyes, most fear what you most despise.

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 6:17 am

bump, , but still stand by my legal stuffs.

and hopefully we could kill some adult dragons in the expansion, should be powerful enough shouldn't we?

ltldrgn1 · Post by **ltldrgn1** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 6:30 am

I would say it depends on how the folks at bioware integrate them. Dragons are ungodly strong. and, for the most part, are far more intelligent than any character. They can cast sorceror spells as a 7th level M.U. as well as cleric spells. The problem is, in order to make drags. beatable, (as well as programming hassels) they have to ground them. They don't make them very smart i.e. if their getting beaten badly, they can't fly out, cast heal, invisibility, breath weapon. I say this not to dissuade you but just to inform everyone that doesn't already know that dragons are VERY hard to fight. Thats why you don't see them too often in PnP modules.

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Beware of that which sees without eyes, most fear what you most despise.

mizuno · Post by **mizuno** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 6:39 am

well when you see one in pnp mode, that's the last thing you see i would say.

and of course in game dragon can't fly, otherwise it's not beatable.

yes i am agree with you, ltldrgn1, but i want to beat more dragons, those are beatable but more powerful than those in BG2