.
1. human - CG: rogue 3 - fighter 4 - wizard 3
STR 16-18
CON 16-18
DEX 18
INT 14-16
WIS 10-12 (or lowest dice)
CHA 12-14
with all relevant skills maxed for "speakers and sneakers"
weapons: scather and ?
feats: 2WF - Imp. 2WF - Combat Exp. - Power Att. - Cleave - Great Cleave - EW:BS
don't take combat reflexes cause planning to use scather (therefore also combat exp. and power att.)
2. elf - LG: rogue 3 - monk 2 - paladin 3 - fighter 2
STR 14-16
CON min. 16 (-> 14 - elf)
DEX 16-18 (-> 20 - elf)
INT 13-14
WIS 14-18
CHA 14
unarmored tank with greatsword or spiked chain
skills: sneaking - stealing - use magic (shield - mage armor - blur - mirror image - blink: and she will be impossible to hit)
feats: dodge - combat exp. - Combat reflex (monk) - mobility - spring attack - whirlwind - EW:SC or imp. critical ?
4. Human Cleric 9 / Fighter 1
cleric - tank - crafting X
...no more ideas so far...
3. Human Barb 1 / Wizard 9
spellsword up to level 5 - then wizard and 2nd row reach-attacker
STR 14-18 (some AB for glaive)
CON 14-18
DEX 14-18 (for additonal AoO and AC)
INT 18
WIS 8-12
CHA 8-10 (or lowest dice)
feats: crafting & ?
5. Human Sorcerer 10
nuker and 2nd row reach attacker with glaive
STR 14-18 (some AB for glaive)
CON 14-18
DEX 14-18 (for additonal AoO and AC)
INT 13-14 (or 10-12 without Comb. exp.)
WIS 8-12
CHA 18
feats (?) : SF evocation - GSF evocation - empowered spell - martial weapon: glaive - comb. expertise or combat reflexes
.
neutral good party - any suggestions ?
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silverdragon72
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- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
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This is opinion of course...
Forget about multiclassing - you've got 10 levels, so don't diversify, specialize - get good at something - you can have up to 8 people in your party to meet any diversification needs you have (5 PCs and 3 NPCs). BTW, you can't have a 4-class multi-class (I'm referring to your rogue/monk/paladin/fighter).
I like fighters, and in this game you can pretty much succeed with most types of groups - I played a fighter, a paladin, a ranger, a barbarian, and a wizard with great success. I have also played 4 fighters and a wizard, with each fighter (because they gets the most feats) emulating a class area such as rogue/ranger, paladin/cleric, barbarian/druid, and general fighter. Plus I arm them up with the most powerful weapons (greatsword, greataxe, falchion, and heavy flail).
You may find a wizard more beneficial than a sorcerer in ToEE because they get 2 bonus feats, and if you want to craft items as well as take some spellcasting feats, you're gonna need those bonus feats. Plus, wizards can copy scrolls, which broadens their crafting capabilities.
Stealth needs are negligible - very few locks, no disarmable traps - a knock spell is as good as any thief, and invisibility is quicker (a lot quicker) than sneaking. There are no pockets you HAVE to pick. However, the rogue's sneak attack is great, and they get a 10th level feat bonus with some really great things to choose from.
Right now I'm playing a fighter, a cleric, a rogue, and a wizard. My fighter is my spokesperson (with all the dialogue skills) and my tank. My cleric is a strong fighter, with tons of healing spells and flame strikes. My rogue dual-wields swords and gets killer AoO thanks to the opportunist feat she took at 10th level. My wizards sits back and casts spells as well as crafting high-powered weapons for my party.
Just remember that the NPCs are good fodder and filler, but are never going to be as good as the characters you can create. Account for your needs in your PC party.
Forget about multiclassing - you've got 10 levels, so don't diversify, specialize - get good at something - you can have up to 8 people in your party to meet any diversification needs you have (5 PCs and 3 NPCs). BTW, you can't have a 4-class multi-class (I'm referring to your rogue/monk/paladin/fighter).
I like fighters, and in this game you can pretty much succeed with most types of groups - I played a fighter, a paladin, a ranger, a barbarian, and a wizard with great success. I have also played 4 fighters and a wizard, with each fighter (because they gets the most feats) emulating a class area such as rogue/ranger, paladin/cleric, barbarian/druid, and general fighter. Plus I arm them up with the most powerful weapons (greatsword, greataxe, falchion, and heavy flail).
You may find a wizard more beneficial than a sorcerer in ToEE because they get 2 bonus feats, and if you want to craft items as well as take some spellcasting feats, you're gonna need those bonus feats. Plus, wizards can copy scrolls, which broadens their crafting capabilities.
Stealth needs are negligible - very few locks, no disarmable traps - a knock spell is as good as any thief, and invisibility is quicker (a lot quicker) than sneaking. There are no pockets you HAVE to pick. However, the rogue's sneak attack is great, and they get a 10th level feat bonus with some really great things to choose from.
Right now I'm playing a fighter, a cleric, a rogue, and a wizard. My fighter is my spokesperson (with all the dialogue skills) and my tank. My cleric is a strong fighter, with tons of healing spells and flame strikes. My rogue dual-wields swords and gets killer AoO thanks to the opportunist feat she took at 10th level. My wizards sits back and casts spells as well as crafting high-powered weapons for my party.
Just remember that the NPCs are good fodder and filler, but are never going to be as good as the characters you can create. Account for your needs in your PC party.
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silverdragon72
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- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
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Originally posted by Greywulf
This is opinion of course...
Forget about multiclassing - you've got 10 levels, so don't diversify, specialize - get good at something - you can have up to 8 people in your party to meet any diversification needs you have (5 PCs and 3 NPCs). BTW, you can't have a 4-class multi-class (I'm referring to your rogue/monk/paladin/fighter).
Sure... ?
...was this changed ?
...in IWD2 (also 3.5) you could have as many claases as you like...
...damned this will kill my whole concept !
EDIT: just had a look at the party build strategy thread at the atari TOEE forum...
...and there are dozens of 4-classes MC builds !???
...so anyone who could confirm if a 4-classes MC build is allowed or not ?
Originally posted by Greywulf
I like fighters, and in this game you can pretty much succeed with most types of groups - I played a fighter, a paladin, a ranger, a barbarian, and a wizard with great success. I have also played 4 fighters and a wizard, with each fighter (because they gets the most feats) emulating a class area such as rogue/ranger, paladin/cleric, barbarian/druid, and general fighter. Plus I arm them up with the most powerful weapons (greatsword, greataxe, falchion, and heavy flail).
seems that in TOEE fighters are much stronger then in all other D&D CRPGs - e.g there is absolutely no reason for taking a (D8!) ranger anymore...
...but I don't think that SCs are that good in TOEE - 3 rogue levels are just to powerfull...
...and only the 10th level bonus feat and the additional 3D6 sneak damage would be reasons to take more then 3 !
...one monk level for an unarmored tank is just sweet...
...and with 2 or 4 fighter levels you already have most of the feats you need...
Originally posted by Greywulf
You may find a wizard more beneficial than a sorcerer in ToEE because they get 2 bonus feats, and if you want to craft items as well as take some spellcasting feats, you're gonna need those bonus feats. Plus, wizards can copy scrolls, which broadens their crafting capabilities.
therefore I take a wizard and a sorcerer (don't want to rely on a NPC sorcerer - if there is one - cause I prefer to select the spells myself)
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You don't need a rogue to play ToEE. There are very few traps or locks, and those can be handled with spells (knock, etc). Their sneak attack ability can be tricky to use. Many monsters (undead, elementals, etc) are immune to it as well
I highly recommend avoiding multiclassing unless you really know what you are doing. Some classes can work together, but many wind up crippled if you multi-class poorly. One basic rule of thumb - never, ever, ever multi-class your spellcasters. Doing so will deny them access to their highest spell levels.
Many of the classes get better and stronger abilities as they have more levels in that one class, so staying straight-classed helps you access those abilities. An example of this is the Monk. They get larger attack dice as they go up, and start to get stronger abilities at higher levels. It's often tempting to multiclass a Monk with something like Sorcerer to get Mage Armor, but then the monk winds up being effectively a whole level behind and has a wimpy d4 hit points for that level, just to gain +4 AC which they can get from bracers they party will be able to buy, find or craft later on.
Having said all that, I will give you a few bits of advice on multiclasses that can work. The classes that multiclass the easiest (least number of drawbacks) are Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger and Rogue.
It may seem wierd to make a multiclass Fighter/Barbarian, but that can be a very powerful combination. Fighters get all those feats (including ones like weapon specialization) and Barbarians have rage, higher hit dice size and faster movement. Combine them together and you can make an uber butt-kicker. There's no right/wrong way to do it, just realize that you probably want even number of fighter levels since that's when they get their bonus feats. Fighter4/Barb6, Fighter6/Barb4 or Fighter8/Barb2 are all interesting builds.
If you want to make an archer type, you can combine Fighter/Ranger, Ranger/Rogue or Fighter/Rogue to get there.
If you want to have a warrior that uses two-weapon fighting, then Fighter/Ranger or Ranger/Rogue or Ranger/Barbarian might be interesting builds.
I highly recommend avoiding multiclassing unless you really know what you are doing. Some classes can work together, but many wind up crippled if you multi-class poorly. One basic rule of thumb - never, ever, ever multi-class your spellcasters. Doing so will deny them access to their highest spell levels.
Many of the classes get better and stronger abilities as they have more levels in that one class, so staying straight-classed helps you access those abilities. An example of this is the Monk. They get larger attack dice as they go up, and start to get stronger abilities at higher levels. It's often tempting to multiclass a Monk with something like Sorcerer to get Mage Armor, but then the monk winds up being effectively a whole level behind and has a wimpy d4 hit points for that level, just to gain +4 AC which they can get from bracers they party will be able to buy, find or craft later on.
Having said all that, I will give you a few bits of advice on multiclasses that can work. The classes that multiclass the easiest (least number of drawbacks) are Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger and Rogue.
It may seem wierd to make a multiclass Fighter/Barbarian, but that can be a very powerful combination. Fighters get all those feats (including ones like weapon specialization) and Barbarians have rage, higher hit dice size and faster movement. Combine them together and you can make an uber butt-kicker. There's no right/wrong way to do it, just realize that you probably want even number of fighter levels since that's when they get their bonus feats. Fighter4/Barb6, Fighter6/Barb4 or Fighter8/Barb2 are all interesting builds.
If you want to make an archer type, you can combine Fighter/Ranger, Ranger/Rogue or Fighter/Rogue to get there.
If you want to have a warrior that uses two-weapon fighting, then Fighter/Ranger or Ranger/Rogue or Ranger/Barbarian might be interesting builds.
Recommended party
There are several other threads that discuss people's ideal parties. But since this was your original topic, here's what I'm using and seems to work extremely well:
Human Fighter 10 (built to focus on greatsword) - primary tank. High strength & con, Dishes out insane amount of damage with greatsword.
Human Fighter 8 / Rogue 2 (built to focus on bastard sword) - tank/scout. High dex, strength and con and a decent int. This character wears elven boots and cloak and has a number of ranks in hide/spot. They uncover the dark areas for me while hidden, then plant themselves in a location to launch their opening attack. More rogue levels are less useful, even though it would give more sneak attack damage. The fighter levels (higher BAB & hit points) are more critical for this character
Elf Cleric 10 (war/good) - High wisdom. decent con, strength & dex. Serves as 3rd combat character if needed. Craft wondrous, wand and arms/armor. Weapons are long sword and long bow.
Elf Wizard 10 - High int, dex and con. Serves as spell launcher & archer. Craft arms/armor. Weapons are long sword and long bow. They'll almost never use the sword though.
Human Bard 10 - High charisma and dex, decent int & con. Serves as negotiator and talks to all npcs. Has a number of useful party helping spells (haste, cures) and some good ones for combat as well (tashas hideous laughter, sound burst, etc). Also is primary archer in party. Take point blank shot, precise shot and rapid reload (since your using a xbow). Also give them a decent long sword, but they should never need to use it.
Improved init is a must for all spellcasters, and is useful for everyone else as well. Getting to go before the monsters is huge.
Craft gloves of strength for all characters when you get the chance. Helps avoid encumberance and adds to fighters damage rolls.
There are several other threads that discuss people's ideal parties. But since this was your original topic, here's what I'm using and seems to work extremely well:
Human Fighter 10 (built to focus on greatsword) - primary tank. High strength & con, Dishes out insane amount of damage with greatsword.
Human Fighter 8 / Rogue 2 (built to focus on bastard sword) - tank/scout. High dex, strength and con and a decent int. This character wears elven boots and cloak and has a number of ranks in hide/spot. They uncover the dark areas for me while hidden, then plant themselves in a location to launch their opening attack. More rogue levels are less useful, even though it would give more sneak attack damage. The fighter levels (higher BAB & hit points) are more critical for this character
Elf Cleric 10 (war/good) - High wisdom. decent con, strength & dex. Serves as 3rd combat character if needed. Craft wondrous, wand and arms/armor. Weapons are long sword and long bow.
Elf Wizard 10 - High int, dex and con. Serves as spell launcher & archer. Craft arms/armor. Weapons are long sword and long bow. They'll almost never use the sword though.
Human Bard 10 - High charisma and dex, decent int & con. Serves as negotiator and talks to all npcs. Has a number of useful party helping spells (haste, cures) and some good ones for combat as well (tashas hideous laughter, sound burst, etc). Also is primary archer in party. Take point blank shot, precise shot and rapid reload (since your using a xbow). Also give them a decent long sword, but they should never need to use it.
Improved init is a must for all spellcasters, and is useful for everyone else as well. Getting to go before the monsters is huge.
Craft gloves of strength for all characters when you get the chance. Helps avoid encumberance and adds to fighters damage rolls.
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silverdragon72
- Posts: 850
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
- Contact:
.
my more or less adequate PC would be this one:
1. human - CG: rogue 3 - fighter 4 - wizard 3
STR 16-18
CON 16-18
DEX 18
INT 14-16
WIS 10-12 (or lowest dice)
CHA 12-14
with all relevant skills maxed for "speakers and sneakers"
weapons: scather and ?
feats: 2WF - Imp. 2WF - Combat Exp. - Power Att. - Cleave - Great Cleave - EW:BS
ok - where is the difference...
1. 3rd rogue level - against 8th fighter level:
- 4 HP
- 1 feat
+ 1D6 sneak
+ 1 will save
+ 6 SP
2. 3 wiz (illusionist) levels - against 7th to 5th fighter level:
- 12 HP
- 1 feat
- 2 BAB
+ 2 will saves
+ summon
+ 3x level 1 spell: shield
+ 3x level 2 spells: mirror image; blur
+ summon familar: weasel +2 reflex save - for evasion
+ no problems using scrolls and wands
compairing this two builds the only two negative points are the loss of two feats and the - 2 BAB
using scather the 2 BAB aren't no problem as long as I get the BAB 6 for imp. 2WF...
the 2 feats would be nice - but I don't really miss any important feats (using an elf could take one from using human)
biggest advantage is the ultimate AC this build could reach:
10 - base
4 - shield
4 - DEX (capped)
8 - elven chain
5 - combat experience (using scather)
X - whatever items that give additional & stackable AC
31+X - AC
...means the enemy needs at least AB 12+X to hit on a 19 !
+ mirror image
+ blur
...should be close to impossible to hit !
btw. anyone who could confirm that you can only build 3 classes MCs in TOEE ?
.
Human Fighter 8 / Rogue 2 (built to focus on bastard sword) - tank/scout. High dex, strength and con and a decent int. This character wears elven boots and cloak and has a number of ranks in hide/spot. They uncover the dark areas for me while hidden, then plant themselves in a location to launch their opening attack. More rogue levels are less useful, even though it would give more sneak attack damage. The fighter levels (higher BAB & hit points) are more critical for this character
my more or less adequate PC would be this one:
1. human - CG: rogue 3 - fighter 4 - wizard 3
STR 16-18
CON 16-18
DEX 18
INT 14-16
WIS 10-12 (or lowest dice)
CHA 12-14
with all relevant skills maxed for "speakers and sneakers"
weapons: scather and ?
feats: 2WF - Imp. 2WF - Combat Exp. - Power Att. - Cleave - Great Cleave - EW:BS
ok - where is the difference...
1. 3rd rogue level - against 8th fighter level:
- 4 HP
- 1 feat
+ 1D6 sneak
+ 1 will save
+ 6 SP
2. 3 wiz (illusionist) levels - against 7th to 5th fighter level:
- 12 HP
- 1 feat
- 2 BAB
+ 2 will saves
+ summon
+ 3x level 1 spell: shield
+ 3x level 2 spells: mirror image; blur
+ summon familar: weasel +2 reflex save - for evasion
+ no problems using scrolls and wands
compairing this two builds the only two negative points are the loss of two feats and the - 2 BAB
using scather the 2 BAB aren't no problem as long as I get the BAB 6 for imp. 2WF...
the 2 feats would be nice - but I don't really miss any important feats (using an elf could take one from using human)
biggest advantage is the ultimate AC this build could reach:
10 - base
4 - shield
4 - DEX (capped)
8 - elven chain
5 - combat experience (using scather)
X - whatever items that give additional & stackable AC
31+X - AC
...means the enemy needs at least AB 12+X to hit on a 19 !
+ mirror image
+ blur
...should be close to impossible to hit !
btw. anyone who could confirm that you can only build 3 classes MCs in TOEE ?
.
About Rogues
Hey,
I agree with Silverdragon about MC: they rock... and your party composition rules...
As far as Rogues are concerned, sneak attack is an increadible asset, especially at low levels. Never played a rogue in ToEE though, so I don't know how well PnP rules are enforced, but the following should motivate most people who never took rogues before:
a flat-footed target is vulnerable to sneak attaks.
before its very first action (first round of initiative) a character is considered flat-footed.
Makes Improved Initiative impressive... Can someone confirm/deny that the computer game works that way?
Silver: about your party of 5, I would drop the Sorceror and put a Druid with craft wondrous, but that's IMO. Or I would even only play with the first 4 PCs...
My party is N and includes:
NG Ranger6/Bar4 speaker, TW-fighting with elven chain
brews healing potions, goes melee
LN human cleric10 of Hextor (Law and Destruction) with spiked chain
craft axiomatic weapons, protects the party wizard
CN elf fighter2/wizard (evoker) 10, uses a longbow
shooter, both spells and arrows
LN human fighter main tank
...
Hey,
I agree with Silverdragon about MC: they rock... and your party composition rules...
As far as Rogues are concerned, sneak attack is an increadible asset, especially at low levels. Never played a rogue in ToEE though, so I don't know how well PnP rules are enforced, but the following should motivate most people who never took rogues before:
a flat-footed target is vulnerable to sneak attaks.
before its very first action (first round of initiative) a character is considered flat-footed.
Makes Improved Initiative impressive... Can someone confirm/deny that the computer game works that way?
Silver: about your party of 5, I would drop the Sorceror and put a Druid with craft wondrous, but that's IMO. Or I would even only play with the first 4 PCs...
My party is N and includes:
NG Ranger6/Bar4 speaker, TW-fighting with elven chain
brews healing potions, goes melee
LN human cleric10 of Hextor (Law and Destruction) with spiked chain
craft axiomatic weapons, protects the party wizard
CN elf fighter2/wizard (evoker) 10, uses a longbow
shooter, both spells and arrows
LN human fighter main tank
...
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silverdragon72
- Posts: 850
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
- Contact:
.
....hmmm - about the druid....
I have just started with the moat house...
...so I don't know that much about TOEE...
...but AFAIK you should be most of the game in the moat house or in the temple...
and I'm not sure how the druid is implemented in TOEE / or how usefull a tree-hugger is - beeing anywhere else then in the nature...
...what can the druid create wíth craft wondrous ?
btw.: before the first turn everyone is flat-footed...
and even better you don't even need to sneak for a sneak attack ! -
...flank your enemy - and you get a sneak attack with an extra AB (!) for every (!) hit !
...so always 3 rogue levels for all melee-fighters !
.
....hmmm - about the druid....
I have just started with the moat house...
...so I don't know that much about TOEE...
...but AFAIK you should be most of the game in the moat house or in the temple...
and I'm not sure how the druid is implemented in TOEE / or how usefull a tree-hugger is - beeing anywhere else then in the nature...
...what can the druid create wíth craft wondrous ?
btw.: before the first turn everyone is flat-footed...
and even better you don't even need to sneak for a sneak attack ! -
...flank your enemy - and you get a sneak attack with an extra AB (!) for every (!) hit !
...so always 3 rogue levels for all melee-fighters !
.
First of all, there is no perfect character. A lot depends on play style and a lot depends on the dangers faced. Given what I've seen in the game and considering how I play it, I see some problems with the Fighter/Rogue/Wizard multiclass suggested.
The base attack bonus for that multiclass combination will never reach +8 which means you'll never qualify for one of the best fighting feats: Improved Critical
The character is also 2 feats behind the suggested version I showed. You just can't have enough feats for this type of character. The one I've got would love 1 or 2 more feats as it is. Just in case you might have missed something, here are the feats that you probably want/need for a scout using bastard sword:
Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
Power Attack
Cleave
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Improved Init
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
(Combat Reflexes would be next on this list)
A 10th level human will have 5 feats, so you'll need enough fighter levels to get the other 5.
Now you may not think that Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack are worthwhile, but the way I play my scout is to be very maneuverable in combat, and this allows them to be without drawing attacks of opportunity all the time. The scout is the character that usually moves to set up flanking for himself and the other characters, or to rush past frontliners and attack archers/spellcasters. (Hint: When you find a ring of free action, give it to the scout!)
Note - I don't like Greater Cleave since it seldom gets used. If you want an extra cleave look for a weapon with cleaving.
Another problem I see with the wizard levels is that you are basically only getting a few spells, and some fairly useless things like a familiar. Blur is not very good. It doesn't last very long and it only blocks 1 in 5 swings. Mirror Image also doesn't last very long, and the images get knocked out fairly quick in a big fight. Shield is useful, but again it doesn't last long. So you might be effective for 1 fight, but then you'll need to camp and recast. Good luck doing that down in the temple. I suppose you could keep going back'n'forth to town between every fight, but that seems like it would get really boring. Taking wizard levels will sacrifice a lot of hit points.
As to your point about being able to use scrolls or wands, you can do that with Use Magic Device ranks from your rogue.
I just don't see much benefit from triple classing like this. A fighter/rogue is good, which is what I'm suggesting. If you want a few more levels of rogue for more skill points and extra sneak damage, fine, do it. But I think you'll find the extra bonus fighter feats and bigger hit dice are far superior in the long run.
The base attack bonus for that multiclass combination will never reach +8 which means you'll never qualify for one of the best fighting feats: Improved Critical
The character is also 2 feats behind the suggested version I showed. You just can't have enough feats for this type of character. The one I've got would love 1 or 2 more feats as it is. Just in case you might have missed something, here are the feats that you probably want/need for a scout using bastard sword:
Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
Power Attack
Cleave
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Improved Init
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
(Combat Reflexes would be next on this list)
A 10th level human will have 5 feats, so you'll need enough fighter levels to get the other 5.
Now you may not think that Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack are worthwhile, but the way I play my scout is to be very maneuverable in combat, and this allows them to be without drawing attacks of opportunity all the time. The scout is the character that usually moves to set up flanking for himself and the other characters, or to rush past frontliners and attack archers/spellcasters. (Hint: When you find a ring of free action, give it to the scout!)
Note - I don't like Greater Cleave since it seldom gets used. If you want an extra cleave look for a weapon with cleaving.
Another problem I see with the wizard levels is that you are basically only getting a few spells, and some fairly useless things like a familiar. Blur is not very good. It doesn't last very long and it only blocks 1 in 5 swings. Mirror Image also doesn't last very long, and the images get knocked out fairly quick in a big fight. Shield is useful, but again it doesn't last long. So you might be effective for 1 fight, but then you'll need to camp and recast. Good luck doing that down in the temple. I suppose you could keep going back'n'forth to town between every fight, but that seems like it would get really boring. Taking wizard levels will sacrifice a lot of hit points.
As to your point about being able to use scrolls or wands, you can do that with Use Magic Device ranks from your rogue.
I just don't see much benefit from triple classing like this. A fighter/rogue is good, which is what I'm suggesting. If you want a few more levels of rogue for more skill points and extra sneak damage, fine, do it. But I think you'll find the extra bonus fighter feats and bigger hit dice are far superior in the long run.
Druids
Druids are very helpful. I've got the NPC druid you can pick up in Hommlet and she's been quite useful.
Entangle - The game seems to have a bug here. Once an enemy fails a save against Entangle, it never tries to break free. Thus, they are out of combat for the rest of the fight. Sit back with arrows and spells, or send a character with a ring of free action to slaughter them one by one. Many of the big dangerous fights are made ridiculously easy by this low level spell.
Barkskin - A nice armor spell to put on your main fighters. I use every 2nd level spell slot for this. It gets better as the caster has more levels. If you take crafting, this spell lets you make amulets of natural armor and then you could make those instead of having to cast this.
Call Lightning - This is a great attack spell. unlike the regular pencil&paper game where it can only hit one target, here it can be positioned to hit mulltiple foes.
Flame Strike - Sure clerics get this as a 5th level spell, but druids get it a whole level sooner as a 4th level spell!
They can also pitch spells to cast summons. A very useful ability if you need some extra meat shields.
Druids also can wildshape. If you want to use your druid for combat, this is a cool. However, I'm finding that the druid is mostly a spellcaster/archer in my party. The druid's AC will tend to suck since they can only use leather armors and wood shields, so having them hang back is usually prudent.
So it sounds like druids are the bomb, right? But a cleric is still better. Their ability to pitch spells for curing is huge, and they have a good mix of spells as well. Clerics will have better AC with metal armor and survive a lot more battles as a result. Finally, that ability to turn undead is very useful, especially at the low levels. So always have 1 cleric, but a druid as an extra character is useful. With a 6 character party (ie, an NPC), they are definitely my #6. They can't replace the Tank, Scout, Cleric, Wizard or Bard which are easily the top 5 slots, IMHO.
BTW, I haven't seen much discussion about the Bard, but they are huge in this game. At 8th level, their inpire courage song (which is essentially free) gives the entire party +2 on all attacks, damage rolls and saves. It makes the whole party into one massive damage dealing machine.
Druids are very helpful. I've got the NPC druid you can pick up in Hommlet and she's been quite useful.
Entangle - The game seems to have a bug here. Once an enemy fails a save against Entangle, it never tries to break free. Thus, they are out of combat for the rest of the fight. Sit back with arrows and spells, or send a character with a ring of free action to slaughter them one by one. Many of the big dangerous fights are made ridiculously easy by this low level spell.
Barkskin - A nice armor spell to put on your main fighters. I use every 2nd level spell slot for this. It gets better as the caster has more levels. If you take crafting, this spell lets you make amulets of natural armor and then you could make those instead of having to cast this.
Call Lightning - This is a great attack spell. unlike the regular pencil&paper game where it can only hit one target, here it can be positioned to hit mulltiple foes.
Flame Strike - Sure clerics get this as a 5th level spell, but druids get it a whole level sooner as a 4th level spell!
They can also pitch spells to cast summons. A very useful ability if you need some extra meat shields.
Druids also can wildshape. If you want to use your druid for combat, this is a cool. However, I'm finding that the druid is mostly a spellcaster/archer in my party. The druid's AC will tend to suck since they can only use leather armors and wood shields, so having them hang back is usually prudent.
So it sounds like druids are the bomb, right? But a cleric is still better. Their ability to pitch spells for curing is huge, and they have a good mix of spells as well. Clerics will have better AC with metal armor and survive a lot more battles as a result. Finally, that ability to turn undead is very useful, especially at the low levels. So always have 1 cleric, but a druid as an extra character is useful. With a 6 character party (ie, an NPC), they are definitely my #6. They can't replace the Tank, Scout, Cleric, Wizard or Bard which are easily the top 5 slots, IMHO.
BTW, I haven't seen much discussion about the Bard, but they are huge in this game. At 8th level, their inpire courage song (which is essentially free) gives the entire party +2 on all attacks, damage rolls and saves. It makes the whole party into one massive damage dealing machine.
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silverdragon72
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Originally posted by Kalendraf
First of all, there is no perfect character. A lot depends on play style and a lot depends on the dangers faced. Given what I've seen in the game and considering how I play it, I see some problems with the Fighter/Rogue/Wizard multiclass suggested.
The base attack bonus for that multiclass combination will never reach +8 which means you'll never qualify for one of the best fighting feats: Improved Critical
The character is also 2 feats behind the suggested version I showed. You just can't have enough feats for this type of character. The one I've got would love 1 or 2 more feats as it is. Just in case you might have missed something, here are the feats that you probably want/need for a scout using bastard sword:
Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword)
Power Attack
Cleave
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Improved Init
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
(Combat Reflexes would be next on this list)
as stated before - this PC is designed to wield scather:
....therefore I don't take:
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
...2 feats for only +2 damage...
and also there is no need for Combat reflexes...
AFAIK Improved Critical doesn't stack with keen...
...right now I don't have any idea if I can just cast keen edge on my PC - or even better craft the keen edge effect on scatcher...
...if both doesn't work...
...I will change 2 Wiz levels into fighter levels and take imp. crit.
for this PC (with 5 attacks using haste) I'm not sure if whirlwind helps...
...great cleave should work better from my point of view...
...with a casting heavy party - I think I will have to leave the temple anyway after a few battles for resting...
maybe I take 2 NPCs: druid & bard (if I find one)
...does the druid you get in hommlet can craft something usefull ?
.
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silverdragon72
- Posts: 850
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
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Re: Druids
...you shouldn't be allowed to cast entangle indoors !
.
Originally posted by Kalendraf
Entangle - The game seems to have a bug here. Once an enemy fails a save against Entangle, it never tries to break free. Thus, they are out of combat for the rest of the fight. Sit back with arrows and spells, or send a character with a ring of free action to slaughter them one by one. Many of the big dangerous fights are made ridiculously easy by this low level spell.
...you shouldn't be allowed to cast entangle indoors !
.
It does stack which is why it is so good.Originally posted by silverdragon72
AFAIK Improved Critical doesn't stack with keen...
I find that both whirlwind and great cleave are fairly difficult to set up. In many fights, you only have a couple foes within reach making both of these essentially worthless feats.for this PC (with 5 attacks using haste) I'm not sure if whirlwind helps...
...great cleave should work better from my point of view...
Possibly. I've been able to do several fights in a row with my group before withdrawing. Right now it's at 7 characters with the 2 NPCs tagging along. 3 of them have no spellcasting ability while the other 4 do cast. However, my bard only casts stuff once in a while and is mostly there to sing and shoot arrows. In most fights, I only usually need to launch a few spells to wear down the monsters, and then let the casters use bows and crossbows to finish them off....with a casting heavy party - I think I will have to leave the temple anyway after a few battles for resting...
There is one of each available. The bard is hard to get though as he shows up as a random encounter on the road.maybe I take 2 NPCs: druid & bard (if I find one)
...does the druid you get in hommlet can craft something usefull ?
She can't yet at 8th level. I doubt her 9th level feat will be a crafting feat. But I wasn't worried about her crafting ability when I chose her. She's been helpful in a lot of fights so far.
True. But the computer game doesn't care....you shouldn't be allowed to cast entangle indoors !
Originally posted by silverdragon72
...does the druid you get in hommlet can craft something usefull ?
.
Meleny doesn't get any crafting feats. At 9th level she gets venom immunity and that's it, even though it is a standard druid feat. She does not take a bonus feat like our PCs do.
Obviously, NPCs don't necessarily follow the usual rules for feat and skill acquisitions.
This is excerpted from Mulligan's Power of NPCs thread for Meleny:
"Starting feats: alertness; simple, druid, scimitar, and longspear proficiencies; shield and druid armor profs; nature sense, animal companion
Later will have: spell penetration, trackless step, resist nature's lure, wild shape, and venom immunity"
Most of the NPCs in the game are presented there in both their initial and final (meaning, 10th level) states. Feel free to refer to it for most of your NPC questions:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1
Missing NPCs include the ones from the Nodes, Mother Screng and Hruda, and Kella - everyone else is there, although Ted, Ed, and Ed are not alevel 10 as of this writing.
CRAFTING DRUIDS
To Silverdragon:
Unless I am too tired, I think nobody addressed your question about what kind of items can Druids craft:
Well they get all the physical spellboosts at 2nd level needed for Gauntlets of STR, etc...
they get barkskin for amulets of Natural Armor (useful with the Co8 patch fixed version for crafting items)
and they get the the Chill Metal/Heat Metal used for icy burst weapons
They complement a possible Cleric weapon maker (with either Holy Smite or Order of Law, since about 95% of opponents are Chaotic Evil.) or wizard. And they also share XP costs
the fact that they get Flame Strike at 4th level is just great.
But I like them best because of the fact they get animal companions, which is increadibly useful to me because I don't save (playing the Hard Way)....
To Silverdragon:
Unless I am too tired, I think nobody addressed your question about what kind of items can Druids craft:
Well they get all the physical spellboosts at 2nd level needed for Gauntlets of STR, etc...
they get barkskin for amulets of Natural Armor (useful with the Co8 patch fixed version for crafting items)
and they get the the Chill Metal/Heat Metal used for icy burst weapons
They complement a possible Cleric weapon maker (with either Holy Smite or Order of Law, since about 95% of opponents are Chaotic Evil.) or wizard. And they also share XP costs
the fact that they get Flame Strike at 4th level is just great.
But I like them best because of the fact they get animal companions, which is increadibly useful to me because I don't save (playing the Hard Way)....