Could rapier be an off-hand weapon?

Jamill Doghair · Post by **Jamill Doghair** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:19 am

In PHB, if you want to minimize the penalty of 2H-weapon fight, you should wield light weapon in your off-hand. But, what is the light weapon? Is rapier a kind of light weapon? IMP, rapier is light, so the weapon finesse work on it, like spike chain, but not as small as shortsword for human or dagger for hafling. It means that rapier couldn't be a suitable off-hand weapon.
I am not sure it is bug or I misunderstand the rules of PHB, it is only -2 for my 2H-weapon fight style elf ranger. If it is work, it's terrible to wield 2 rapiers with weapon focus/specialize and improve critical.
So, how do you think about the rules? Acutally, I am enjoying with that now.

Kalendraf · Post by **Kalendraf** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:38 pm

By the 3.5 rules, a rapier should not be considered as a small/light weapon for purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting. So wielding two rapiers should result in a hefty penalty. Weapon Finesse can certainly help offset this penalty if your dex is high enough.

I'm not sure how ToEE implements this, as I haven't tried to dual wield rapiers yet.

Mulligan · Post by **Mulligan** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:45 pm

Hi

Dual-wielding two rapiers gives the same penalty as having ANY non-light weapon in the off-hand, a -2 penalty to hit with all attacks assuming you have the Two-wpn fighting feat.

Both PHB (PnP game) and TOEE manual/game help list Rapier as a medium weapon. Weapon Finesse should help offset penalties if your DEX is higher than STR.

Weapon Finesse works for Short sword, Dagger, Rapier, Unarmed Strike, Spiked Chain, Light Hammer, Light Mace and Handaxe. It should also work for Light Pick.

Read in the forum that for some Finesse & Short Sword is bugged, but it works for me.

The bonus/penalties are as follows:

Mainhand / Offhand

Dual wield: -6 / -10 to hit
Light offhand: +2 / +2 to hit
Two-wpn feat: +2 / +6 to hit
Wearing Buckler: 0 / -1 to hit

All of the above stack

Hope this helps

Arachnol · Post by **Arachnol** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:07 am

about spiked chain

Hi Mulligan,

It seems that in ToEE, you can't apply Weapon Finesse with Spiked chain: is this a ToEE bug or 3.5 edition change?

might be one of those changes like with keen/Imp. Crit....

Greywulf · Post by **Greywulf** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:41 am

I'll take a stab at this one and quote from the 3.5E PHB, p. 102:
"Weapon Finesse [General]
With a light weapon, rapier, whip or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls..."

So, if Finesse isn't working on the spiked chain, it is either a ToEE bug, or something they overlooked or choose not to incorporate into the game. But it is in the 3.5E rules as a finesse-able (?) weapon.

Jamill Doghair · Post by **Jamill Doghair** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:45 am

Before patched, we should choose the weapon type of the feat 'weapon finesse', but the feat is fitting for all finesse-able weapons and it is no need to choose weapon type actually. If you patched TOEE, the feat will work for all finesse-able weapons, but there is still a bug (or typo) that it is marked ¡¥dagger¡¦. Maybe you should check the attack roll data to confirm the feat is working or not.

Mulligan · Post by **Mulligan** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:20 am

About spiked chain

Hi Arachnol

I play with the official Atari patch and the latest CO8 fan patch and Weapon Finesse works with all the weapons mentioned in my post above.

Jamill is right : Before the patch Finesse followed old 3E rules not 3.5.

I'm not sure, but if STR & DEX is same value or STR is higher than DEX maybe the game defaults to STR in the combat information ?

I'll check and post back when i learn more

Hope tou too find out.

Have fun

Kalendraf · Post by **Kalendraf** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:49 am

Re: About spiked chain

Originally posted by Mulligan

I'm not sure, but if STR & DEX is same value or STR is higher than DEX maybe the game defaults to STR in the combat information ?

Just in case folks are wondering...

If the characters have STR >= DEX, then they have no business taking Weapon Finesse. It's just a wasted feat in that case. Weapon Finesse is kind of a niche feat for *melee* characters that have a high dex, low strength build. That's often a rogue or bard, but other characters, even fighters or rangers, could conceivably fit that build.

My rule of thumb for taking this feat is to only take it if the character's dex bonus is at least 2 points higher than their strength bonus (for example 16 dex with a +3 bonus vs. 12 strength with a +1 bonus). If the dex vs. str bonus is less than that, then you probably won't get enough out of this feat.

Personally, I think that in most cases, the high dex characters should stick to ranged weapons instead. Let the highly armored, muscular tanks expose themselves to danger instead of having the lightly armored "finesse" characters do it.