Who's the WORST Npc's ?

Mulligan · Post by **Mulligan** » Mon May 17, 2004 6:11 pm

Hi all

I have a somewhat unusual question, which Npc's do you like the least ?

I was thinking, no matter who i add they all become powerhouses rather quick. So i thought to upp the challenge a bit by playing something new and untried, and to add 'weak' Npc's to the group.

My protagonist will be a Half-Elf Beastmaster (Pure) and i'll add Cernd for Healing. I've always found him rather weak compared to the others. The Game will be played on Insane with these mods installed:

Ease Of Use
Item Upgrade
Tashia (probably not use)
Cloe (probably not use)
BagBonus
Xp Cap remover
-- SOA GAME ONLY -- NO TOB

I have read lots of post on how good Mazzy is, i've always thought her weak for a Fighter. (arrows worst ammo - S.bows worst bows - low Strength etc.)

My five worst Npc is based on the fact that i just 'like' the rest better and is:

Cernd - poor item uses
Mazzy - weak Fighter/no friend of the S.bow
Nalia - Weak thieves skill, other mages are better
Valgyar - poor AC- low Strength
Jaheira - Strong early- weak later due to Druid XP gap

Any feedback or discussion on this would be nice. All i really want is to go through with a party consisting of the Npc's availible, that has to think hard and use their abilities to the max to have success.

And thanks for all the other glorious info in this forum.

Onwards, for Victory !!

Albert Rose · Post by **Albert Rose** » Mon May 17, 2004 6:25 pm

Great topic!!

My own personal preferences to follow:

I seldom use Anomen, even if he does become a rather useful cleric to use in my standard goody-goody game. I just can't stand his vocalizations. I tend to go with Viconia for my cleric, which typically causes problems when/if I pick up Keldorn later (gotta use Carsomyr!).

I don't like Cernd either, but I haven't really tried him yet.

Haer'dalis never joins my party for long, although I hear he's pretty good. He's too wordy for me, and I haven't yet figured out the "don't read everything he says" part. He gets hit a lot, too, and needs healing frequently. Is there any good armor for him?

I only team with Jaheira or Aerie if I want to play the romance. Otherwise, I can find better tanks/clerics/mages.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon May 17, 2004 6:42 pm

Good idea. I ran a party like that for my third time through.

Nalia, Cernd, Mazzy (on point!), and Haer'dalis, as I recall. Anomen, too. He's a good cleric, but at least his personality stinks.

Mulligan · Post by **Mulligan** » Mon May 17, 2004 8:28 pm

Thanks Fable.

That's some of the Npc's i had in mind.

I have used Haerdalis several times before, and although he's rather weak in the beginning i'm always getting a powerhorse out of him later due to Soneskin/Protections/Tenser's. combos

I like to include bard for specific items and songs and it somehow feels right to have both a bard and a druid in the group. I learned this lesson in IWD1 with much frustration over good equipment nobody could use.

I'm beginnig to see the shapeup of my new group :

Female Beastmaster (this must be the weakest of the fighters)

Anomen (fail at Knighthood and turn CN, serves him right, the Oaf)

Nalia (only mage and only thief and not very good at it)

Cernd (mostly shapeshifted, but will probably hide a lot due to AC)

Mazzy or Valgyar for Fighting. Hmm i can't decide who's worst of these two. I have to look at them more closely.

And one more to go or maybe both Mazzy & Valgy. Or that may be to many Fighters.

It will be fun i think, and inspired by Sytse i'll try not to reload if anybody get's 'chunked' for good.

BG2, here i go again !!

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:37 pm

Some of the NPCs have a lame or annoying personality, but I don't know if I could pick the "worst". I suppose the multi-classed NPCs are at a disadvantage in Shadows of Amn, as are the dual-classed NPCs who dualled to a second class too soon (especially Nalia, although I also think that Anomen and Imoen should have been 9th Level in their first class), but when I exclude a character from my party, it's usually because of their personality. I don't really care for the evil NPCs because of my personal biases.

If you want a challenge for your main character, play a Transmuter all the way through the game. I'd be impressed.

Thrain · Post by **Thrain** » Tue May 18, 2004 4:50 am

Originally posted by Mulligan
My five worst Npc is based on the fact that i just 'like' the rest better and is:

Cernd - poor item uses
Mazzy - weak Fighter/no friend of the S.bow
Nalia - Weak thieves skill, other mages are better
Valgyar - poor AC- low Strength
Jaheira - Strong early- weak later due to Druid XP gap

in all honesty, Cernd doesn't need awesome weapons. i believe weimar's werewolf fix is in ease of use, which makes Cernd one hell of a tank when in greater werewolf form. he is also a powerful druid when you consider his 18 wisdom, and the fact that you have an exp cap remover so should get 4 or 5 more level 7 spells at 3mill exp (or is that just with ToB installed?)

for me, short bows are for my mages while they're not casting spells. however, consider mazzy (with her 18 dex) firing off 3 shots with the tuigan bow before an enemy gets to her and switching to say, the duskblade or the wave and cleaving them in two. that, or dual wield arbane and frostreaver.

don't think of Nalia as a theif, more as a mage who can use a bow. in reality, she can reach a higher mage level than Imoen by the end of SoA, but as i hate her personality and that i have to take another thief if i take her at all puts me off her.

Valygar + shadow dragon armour + CF, need i say more?

Jaheira's problems with levelling up don't really come until ToB when, to get her extra spells at level 15 she needs 6 million exp instead of the usual 3mill.

the problems with the likes of Cernd, Valygar and Mazzy is that they're a little bland. Cernd's most entertaining dialogue for me was during the Edwin quest and Valygar only becomes interesting when Mazzy is in the party. Nalia is too whiny (but her changed soundset in ToB ain't bad) and Mazzy is too righteous (although IIRC, she does have some good dialogue with Anomen and Keldorn).

In short, NPCs are what you make them...

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Tue May 18, 2004 5:29 am

Nalia is anoying!

"how are we helping the less fortunate trudging around down here?"

is what she says when i am at HER keep, helping HER

her thief skills are bad but if u install the mod to make her an adventurer she isnt that bad.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Tue May 18, 2004 5:45 am

Change Nalia from t/m to fighter/mage (or better use the archer fighter kit) and she will become much more usefull (and is also more in tune to role playing).

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Tue May 18, 2004 5:50 am

Nooooo....

Please, not another thread changing into a SK hackathon.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:34 am

He has a point. @Lompo, Mulligan is trying to find a *weak* natural party to play and have fun with, not a strong one.

AgentX · Post by **AgentX** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:46 am

Cernd
Haer'Dalis
Nalia
Valygar
Viconia

I think all the NPC's are strong when placed in the right group and given their own little niche. Of course no one would complain that Viconia is a weak NPC or even haer'dalis when he breaks his level cap. But I think this is probally the "weakest" party you could try out and have a fair amount of trouble with early on.

The shapeshifter mod is totally unbalanced imo, Cernd could carry any party with it on no matter what other NPC's are there. Personally, I've got it installed with a few modifications of my own, in which I lowered the effective AC of werewolf form, halved elemental/magic resistances, removed the weapon immunity from regular werewolf form, slightly toned down the damage of the claws, left the con bonuses in, and lowered the saving throw bonuses.

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:54 am

Hmm...

Well, it really depends on what we're talking about in terms of weakness. Anomen, for instance, is a very effective NPC - he's a killing powerhouse and a hell of a tank, but most people find him tremendously annoying. Cernd, on the other hand - without the shapeshifter rebalancing mod - is just weak - though not too offensiwe personally. I'm assuming you're looking for weak characters not annoying ones, so I'll go with that

Valygar is arguably the most underappreciated NPC - he's a superb scout, a wrecking machine in combat, and has some great dialogue. Give him a +STR item (even Mauler's arm offhand) and watch hiim knock the tar out of baddies all over.

I've never really used Mazzy, like Korgan she just doesn't do it for me, but she may well be the weakest fighter type NPC. THough shortbows aren't bad at all - give her the Tuigan bow + decent ammo, and she's great for peppering those pesky enemy priests and mages.

HD is in no sense weak - used even semi-effectively, he's a nasty spell-casting killer, and with the right spells and skills is a hugely effective tank as well.

Chloe & Tashia are BAD choices for a weak party - Tashia is a great sorceror (though she has a few iffy spells in her lineup) and ..welll..Chloe is a single class Kensai - 'nuff said.

So, for a "weakling" party, here's how I see it:
PC - Beastmaster - ooh, lamest fighter kit, no question.
Cernd - definitely the weakest priest
Nalia - definitely the weakest arcane caster, with hopeless thieving skills - for best effects, hack her to transmuter like VonDondu suggested for the PC

Really, you're out of harcore weaklings there - Aerie could play if you didn't let her use trigggers & contingencies, but that's sort of reverse cheating. All the rest of the NPCs you pretty much have to work at making them ineffective.

Good gaming!

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:06 am

I'd recommend against Mazzy - bows are insanely overpowered in BG2, and short bows are the best bows available in SoA (though not ToB).
If I were you I'd hack Mazzy reversing her short bow and short sword proficiencies. Short swords are pretty useless and Mazzy having 15str doesn't help much for melee.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:22 am

Originally posted by Vicsun
If I were you I'd hack Mazzy reversing her short bow and short sword proficiencies. Short swords are pretty useless and Mazzy having 15str doesn't help much for melee.

Ah, that's more like it...using SK to nerf characters.

surtur · Post by **surtur** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:06 am

now cernd and haer'dalis are guys I never used. the bard class generally pisses me off, and I'm of no high opinion about druids either.
and I also consider jaheira weak, though she's good in the beginning.
I don't recall about Yoshimo, but I don't think he's too good either

TheDude · Post by **TheDude** » Tue May 18, 2004 1:30 pm

i never use cernd only to get more exp. in the druid grove quest but he reallly is weak.
no a fan of jaheira either.
i played with anomen but although he is a pain he rocks.
everyone is great with the right equipment but cernd will never be great i think nor will Nalia and mazzy is only fgreat whit the bow of gesen but by that time you'r already so powerfull that notthing is really a treth.

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue May 18, 2004 1:45 pm

I have to speak on Mazzy's little behalf... I've used her once in a party as my only fighter and she did all right.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Tue May 18, 2004 1:57 pm

Man, Jaheira is the ultimate Powerhouse... spells and decent combat... how can you not see it?

Btw, the worst one, imo, are Cernd and Valygar, specially cause of the dialog.

And the best, if you ask me, is Jan Jakobar. No offense, but yer all a bunch of turnip eating scum...

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Tue May 18, 2004 4:33 pm

i find it funny that almost everyone says how weak Haer'Dalis is when the handbook talks about how powerful he is

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue May 18, 2004 5:10 pm

Originally posted by Luis Antonio
Man, Jaheira is the ultimate Powerhouse... spells and decent combat... how can you not see it?

Btw, the worst one, imo, are Cernd and Valygar, specially cause of the dialog.

And the best, if you ask me, is Jan Jakobar. No offense, but yer all a bunch of turnip eating scum...

in a stand up, knock down fight, a tob jaheira can beat minsc, keldorn, saravok and korgan AT THE SAME TIME!!!

regeneration, aura of flaming death, iron skin, globe of blades, and she slices thru anyone...

try making edwin into an invoker...

and aerie into an enchanter/cleric...

hee hee...no chain contingencies...

and jan is incredibly effective...at high level, tob, his spike traps kill incredibly effectively...

I REALLY can't stand Cernd...

--------------------------------------------
He's a real Nature's Man,
Sitting in his jailcell and,
Making all his balanced plans
for Druid's Grove.

Believes in a balanced point of view,
Knows not what Logain's going to do,
He's not a bit like you and me!
Nature's Man, please listen,
You left your wife, without even a kissing,
Nature's Man, the world doesn't revolve at your command.

He's as blind as he can be,
Doesn't see his real responsibility,
Nature's Man can't you see your family at all?
A balanced point of view,
No time for a family where he's going to,
He's not a bit like you and me!
Nature's Man, you're sorry,
Take your time, don't hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
fixes your mess.

He's a real Nature's Man,
Sitting in his jailcell and,
Making all his balanced plans
for Druid's Grove.