Thanks for all the help in the other thread with my cleric, now I'm going to work on building a sorcerer.
I looked at the FAQ and plan on using this build, but would like someone to explain a few things I've found in FAQs Sorcerer build which should help me tremendously in learning more about the game.
race: human (cause of the lack of feats!) - or elf/half-elf for the free longbow feat !
Let me see if I understand this: Humans get extra feat slots right? So taking human benefits me by allowing extra feats? My initial attempts at the game included a sorceress who came with a xbow - when she runs out of spells, I go to that - and that seems fine because I usually try to keep her away from the melee. So, would half elf or elf make a better choice due to my playstyle?
weapon&equipment:
- if human take the glaive (feat!) - if elf take longbow !
Huh? Glaive? Isn't that a melee weapon? Why would I want a magic user to use a melee weapon? And from the book, it appears the glaive is a 2h weapon? I did a little research on my own and learned glaive has an extra reach - is this the reason for using a glaive with a sorcerer?
- bracers +5 (craft)
- cloak of CHA +6 (craft)
- medallion of CON +6 (craft)
- gauntlets of DEX +6 (craft)
- Ioun Stone STR +2 (craft - only with Co8)
- ring of protection +2
Ok, when do I get to start crafting this stuff? Who is going to craft it? Do I need to take certain feats to be able to craft with a char? If I remember, my cleric doesn't get to begin crafting things until level 5?
skills:
spellcraft, concentration, tumble
Ok, I get the first two - do I need tumble if I go the archery route? Any other suggestions for skills? My sorc will likely be the spokesperson (highest cha) so diplomacy will probably be a must along with sense motive - correct me if I'm wrong.
Spells:
When having a secondary wizard:
level 1: 5 - mage armor, shield, sleep, ray of enfeeblement, one more spell you like
level 2: 4 - magic missile, blur, mirror image, web
level 3: 3 - fireball, displacement, one more spell you like
level 4: 2 - icestorm, one more spell you like
level 5: 1 - cone of cold or cloudkill
most important spells for the secondary wizard:
haste, imp. inv., good hope, stoneskin, confusion, cloudkill, keen edge
And if I don't have a secondary wizard?
tactics:
- always keep your sorc away drom melee !
Indeed
- always make a 5-feet step back when close to an enemy !
Why did I need the glaive again?
- using an enchanted glaive +3 and having 16 STR the sorc will deal quite a lot of melee damage - and with the excellent DEX combat reflexes (s)he will get many of AoO ! (btw. in TOEE enemies won't change their first chosen target !!!)
So keep the Sorceer within 10 feet of melee?
If I decide to go the archery route with my sorcer could someone discuss any alterations I should make to this build?
Thanks again.
More newb Questions - Sorcerer
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SingleMalt
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silverdragon72
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.
ok let's start with the glaive...
...from my point of view the glaive is the best weapon in the game:
- has a reach attack (means you can attack from 10 feet distance
- and does great damage
...due to the level 10 cap weapon enchantment +3 - and a good STR modifier are as important for the AB in TOEE as the BAB...
...means a sorc with high STR *AND* a good weapon will hit very well against most enemies !
and even against the toughest enemies the sorc will do more damage with the suggested glaive then with magic missiles... (my sorc leads with 76 HP in the most damage list for a long time)
and the reach effect of glaive is great (many AoOs - you can attack from a save distance - enemies never change their first target, so if you manage to stay out of fight until the 2nd or 3rd round of the battle - it's absoultely save to close in for melee...
btw. I tested the suggested sorc build against zuggmothy (the final boss - nneither using nor destroying the orb of death) and won in a standalone melee fight ! (ok - it was a tough fight - and she needed one potion of heal - but at the end she won
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ok let's start with the glaive...
...from my point of view the glaive is the best weapon in the game:
- has a reach attack (means you can attack from 10 feet distance
- and does great damage
...due to the level 10 cap weapon enchantment +3 - and a good STR modifier are as important for the AB in TOEE as the BAB...
...means a sorc with high STR *AND* a good weapon will hit very well against most enemies !
and even against the toughest enemies the sorc will do more damage with the suggested glaive then with magic missiles... (my sorc leads with 76 HP in the most damage list for a long time)
and the reach effect of glaive is great (many AoOs - you can attack from a save distance - enemies never change their first target, so if you manage to stay out of fight until the 2nd or 3rd round of the battle - it's absoultely save to close in for melee...
btw. I tested the suggested sorc build against zuggmothy (the final boss - nneither using nor destroying the orb of death) and won in a standalone melee fight ! (ok - it was a tough fight - and she needed one potion of heal - but at the end she won
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silverdragon72
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SingleMalt wrote:race: human (cause of the lack of feats!) - or elf/half-elf for the free longbow feat !
Let me see if I understand this: Humans get extra feat slots right? So taking human benefits me by allowing extra feats? My initial attempts at the game included a sorceress who came with a xbow - when she runs out of spells, I go to that - and that seems fine because I usually try to keep her away from the melee. So, would half elf or elf make a better choice due to my playstyle?
- sorcs only have simple weapon prof. means they need a feat for the xbow...
- humans get an extra feat at 1st level and one additional SP per level...
- half-elfs / elfs get martial weapons prof: longsword and longbow for free at 1st level
so the main difference is that as a human you have the free choice with weapon you prefer - and glaive is best !
...but if you prefer a longbow take an elf or half-elf...
weapon&equipment:
- if human take the glaive (feat!) - if elf take longbow !
Huh? Glaive? Isn't that a melee weapon? Why would I want a magic user to use a melee weapon? And from the book, it appears the glaive is a 2h weapon? I did a little research on my own and learned glaive has an extra reach - is this the reason for using a glaive with a sorcerer?a
yes - see the post above !
- bracers +5 (craft)
- cloak of CHA +6 (craft)
- medallion of CON +6 (craft)
- gauntlets of DEX +6 (craft)
- Ioun Stone STR +2 (craft - only with Co8)
- ring of protection +2
Ok, when do I get to start crafting this stuff? Who is going to craft it? Do I need to take certain feats to be able to craft with a char? If I remember, my cleric doesn't get to begin crafting things until level 5? a
that belongs to you - if you get early enough exp. and not level up atonce you will reach level 7/8 before or at the first levels of the temple...(and in the temple are ~70% of the battles in TOEE)
you should have a wizard and a cleric - both with craft wondrous item
a druid will also make it (but there's no place for a druid in my party concept and btw. you will find Kella and Meleny)
skills:
spellcraft, concentration, tumble
Ok, I get the first two - do I need tumble if I go the archery route? Any other suggestions for skills? My sorc will likely be the spokesperson (highest cha) so diplomacy will probably be a must along with sense motive - correct me if I'm wrong.
even as an archer your will get surrounded by enemies - and if you have free SP put them into tumble...
...in my party build the "assassin" or the "kensai" are always the spokesperson (cause of massive SP through the rogue levels)
Spells:
When having a secondary wizard:
level 1: 5 - mage armor, shield, sleep, ray of enfeeblement, one more spell you like
level 2: 4 - magic missile, blur, mirror image, web
level 3: 3 - fireball, displacement, one more spell you like
level 4: 2 - icestorm, one more spell you like
level 5: 1 - cone of cold or cloudkill
most important spells for the secondary wizard:
haste, imp. inv., good hope, stoneskin, confusion, cloudkill, keen edge
And if I don't have a secondary wizard?
...take one you will need one (crafting wondrous items / arms & armor / wands and support spells) - and as said above - you will find good PC druids...
tactics:
- always keep your sorc away drom melee !
Indeed
better: - always keep your sorc away drom melee - until every enemy has chosen a target !
- always make a 5-feet step back when close to an enemy !
Why did I need the glaive again?
using the glaive you should have 10-feet distance but there are also monsters with an 10-feet reach attack - and casting in attack range will cause an AoO ! (5-feet step back won't)
- using an enchanted glaive +3 and having 16 STR the sorc will deal quite a lot of melee damage - and with the excellent DEX combat reflexes (s)he will get many of AoO ! (btw. in TOEE enemies won't change their first chosen target !!!)
So keep the Sorceer within 10 feet of melee?
If I decide to go the archery route with my sorcer could someone discuss any alterations I should make to this build?
Thanks again.
as archer you will need less STR and more DEX - and there are many good archer feats you will want to take - but don't have the free feats for them - so it's easier (and better) with a glaive !
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Galuf the Dwarf
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Actually, silverdragon, I beg to differ.
1) Sorcerers are proficient with crossbows, since those are simple weapons.
3) It wouldn't be advised to take a martial weapon for a Sorcerer. With the amount of feats that even a human sorc needs to really do much damage with a glaive, he could be able to craft useful items that even SingleMalt's cleric of Heironeous could not. However, Sorcerers are proficient with spears (simple weapon), but not longspears (martial weapon). That does provide some reach, about as much as a glaive.
4) The thing is, SinglMalt's Sorcerer needs the 'Craft Wonderous Item' (attainable at level 3) and 'Craft Magic Arms & Armor' (Level 6) to be able to craft ANY of those items.
5) Kella and Meleny do not take any of the crafting feats, so the only way to ensure that you have a Druid with crafting feats is to have a druid of your own.
1) Sorcerers are proficient with crossbows, since those are simple weapons.
3) It wouldn't be advised to take a martial weapon for a Sorcerer. With the amount of feats that even a human sorc needs to really do much damage with a glaive, he could be able to craft useful items that even SingleMalt's cleric of Heironeous could not. However, Sorcerers are proficient with spears (simple weapon), but not longspears (martial weapon). That does provide some reach, about as much as a glaive.
4) The thing is, SinglMalt's Sorcerer needs the 'Craft Wonderous Item' (attainable at level 3) and 'Craft Magic Arms & Armor' (Level 6) to be able to craft ANY of those items.
5) Kella and Meleny do not take any of the crafting feats, so the only way to ensure that you have a Druid with crafting feats is to have a druid of your own.
Dungeon Crawl Inc.: It's the most fun you can have without 3 midgets and a whip! Character stats made by your's truly!
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ordnaryjones
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silverdragon72
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[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]Actually, silverdragon, I beg to differ.
1) Sorcerers are proficient with crossbows, since those are simple weapons. [/QUOTE]
I have to admit that I've never used light xbows - but the heavy ones should be martial - besides xbows and bows needs some feats to be usefull in TOEE...
[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]3) It wouldn't be advised to take a martial weapon for a Sorcerer. With the amount of feats that even a human sorc needs to really do much damage with a glaive, he could be able to craft useful items that even SingleMalt's cleric of Heironeous could not. However, Sorcerers are proficient with spears (simple weapon), but not longspears (martial weapon). That does provide some reach, about as much as a glaive.[/QUOTE]
AFAIK spears don't have any reach - only longspears...
[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]4) The thing is, SinglMalt's Sorcerer needs the 'Craft Wonderous Item' (attainable at level 3) and 'Craft Magic Arms & Armor' (Level 6) to be able to craft ANY of those items.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't suggest crafting for a sorc cause of the lack of spells he can remember...- ...so I would always choose a wizard or a druid *and* a cleric for crafting...
[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]5) Kella and Meleny do not take any of the crafting feats, so the only way to ensure that you have a Druid with crafting feats is to have a druid of your own. [/QUOTE]
absolutely right - but if you have to choose between a druid and wizard for crafting - I would take the wizard...
the benefits of the druid (barkskin,...) you also can get through Kella or meleny...
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1) Sorcerers are proficient with crossbows, since those are simple weapons. [/QUOTE]
I have to admit that I've never used light xbows - but the heavy ones should be martial - besides xbows and bows needs some feats to be usefull in TOEE...
[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]3) It wouldn't be advised to take a martial weapon for a Sorcerer. With the amount of feats that even a human sorc needs to really do much damage with a glaive, he could be able to craft useful items that even SingleMalt's cleric of Heironeous could not. However, Sorcerers are proficient with spears (simple weapon), but not longspears (martial weapon). That does provide some reach, about as much as a glaive.[/QUOTE]
AFAIK spears don't have any reach - only longspears...
[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]4) The thing is, SinglMalt's Sorcerer needs the 'Craft Wonderous Item' (attainable at level 3) and 'Craft Magic Arms & Armor' (Level 6) to be able to craft ANY of those items.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't suggest crafting for a sorc cause of the lack of spells he can remember...- ...so I would always choose a wizard or a druid *and* a cleric for crafting...
[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]5) Kella and Meleny do not take any of the crafting feats, so the only way to ensure that you have a Druid with crafting feats is to have a druid of your own. [/QUOTE]
absolutely right - but if you have to choose between a druid and wizard for crafting - I would take the wizard...
the benefits of the druid (barkskin,...) you also can get through Kella or meleny...
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So the debate tween Sorcerers and Wizards continues.
The real difference between the 2 is that Wizards are far more versetile, while Sorcerer's lend themsleves more to specializing.
IMO Sorcerer's are best for sheer firepower, make your Sorc a specialist in evocation, dropping necromancy and illusions.
Take combat casting, spell penetration, and greater spell penetration for feats. Forget about weapons and save feats because you can do just as well if not better with magic items. with your extra one you could take an item creation feat if you wanted, but for my money Maximize Spell is far more worth it. Imgagine walking around doing max damage on every fireball and magic missile that you cast. Too sweet.
The only skill you absolutly need to take is concetration, after that go for what ever you want.
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Now for your Wizard. The nice thing about wizards is that you can have every single spell in the game scribed into your spellbook.
Wizards get 6 feats to work with, I would take combat casting, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, Craft wand, craft arms and armor, and craft wonderous items. Forget about brew potion, your much better off with wands, and on top of that there are a ton of potions to be found throughout the game. And both Wizards and Sorcerers get scribe scroll for free, which are just as good as potions as well.
For skills concetration and spellcraft are the only ones you really need. Concentration for casting while under attack, and Spellcraft for coping spells into your spell book and such. After that I would probably go for tumble, great for getting out of range of combat.
The real difference between the 2 is that Wizards are far more versetile, while Sorcerer's lend themsleves more to specializing.
IMO Sorcerer's are best for sheer firepower, make your Sorc a specialist in evocation, dropping necromancy and illusions.
Take combat casting, spell penetration, and greater spell penetration for feats. Forget about weapons and save feats because you can do just as well if not better with magic items. with your extra one you could take an item creation feat if you wanted, but for my money Maximize Spell is far more worth it. Imgagine walking around doing max damage on every fireball and magic missile that you cast. Too sweet.
The only skill you absolutly need to take is concetration, after that go for what ever you want.
_____
Now for your Wizard. The nice thing about wizards is that you can have every single spell in the game scribed into your spellbook.
Wizards get 6 feats to work with, I would take combat casting, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, Craft wand, craft arms and armor, and craft wonderous items. Forget about brew potion, your much better off with wands, and on top of that there are a ton of potions to be found throughout the game. And both Wizards and Sorcerers get scribe scroll for free, which are just as good as potions as well.
For skills concetration and spellcraft are the only ones you really need. Concentration for casting while under attack, and Spellcraft for coping spells into your spell book and such. After that I would probably go for tumble, great for getting out of range of combat.
I have the heart of a small boy,
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I keep in a jar on my desk.
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SingleMalt
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I'm leaning towards liking wizards more too, tho in the group I am currently playing I have both a wizard and a sorcerer. I had started with sorcerers after hearing the meme that sorcerers are better for people new to the game - I don't get that.
What's the deal with losing experience points when you make something? I was incredibly disappointed. At level 3 when you first get craft wonderous item, money is hard enough to come by, unless you do something that is, shall we say, "non-imersive," which I did, and money was no problem - but there's only one way to come by xp. I don't get losing xp for successfully crafting something. Is that a D&D thing?
What's the deal with losing experience points when you make something? I was incredibly disappointed. At level 3 when you first get craft wonderous item, money is hard enough to come by, unless you do something that is, shall we say, "non-imersive," which I did, and money was no problem - but there's only one way to come by xp. I don't get losing xp for successfully crafting something. Is that a D&D thing?
[QUOTE=SingleMalt]I'm leaning towards liking wizards more too, tho in the group I am currently playing I have both a wizard and a sorcerer. I had started with sorcerers after hearing the meme that sorcerers are better for people new to the game - I don't get that.
What's the deal with losing experience points when you make something? I was incredibly disappointed. At level 3 when you first get craft wonderous item, money is hard enough to come by, unless you do something that is, shall we say, "non-imersive," which I did, and money was no problem - but there's only one way to come by xp. I don't get losing xp for successfully crafting something. Is that a D&D thing?[/QUOTE]
Yes it's a D&D rule to charge xp for crafting items. Also money is no problem in the game once you've reached the 3rd level of the temple as you can hang around it resting and kill hundreds of ogres, hill giants and ettins - thus xp is easily replenished too.
imo... Wizrds are far better than a sorcerer just in the fact they can learn new spells from scrolls and craft items just by having the spell in the book. Thus in the last game I played I had a wizard with no less than 18 wands.
What's the deal with losing experience points when you make something? I was incredibly disappointed. At level 3 when you first get craft wonderous item, money is hard enough to come by, unless you do something that is, shall we say, "non-imersive," which I did, and money was no problem - but there's only one way to come by xp. I don't get losing xp for successfully crafting something. Is that a D&D thing?[/QUOTE]
Yes it's a D&D rule to charge xp for crafting items. Also money is no problem in the game once you've reached the 3rd level of the temple as you can hang around it resting and kill hundreds of ogres, hill giants and ettins - thus xp is easily replenished too.
imo... Wizrds are far better than a sorcerer just in the fact they can learn new spells from scrolls and craft items just by having the spell in the book. Thus in the last game I played I had a wizard with no less than 18 wands.
It's their way of making sure that a party of 3rd level characters aren't all walking around loaded with magic items. I wouldn't complain too much, until 3rd ED it was ridiculously hard to make magic items, so hard that in 10 years of playing 1st and 2nd ed I never made, nor witnessed another player even attempt to make a magic item aside from a magic scroll (and even that was exceptionally rare). A couple 100 xp and gp isn't a bad price to pay to have the ability to make a +3 weapon or armor IMHO.
Oh and BTW In the PNP version it also takes several weeks (or months depending on the power level) to craft a magic item. The game automatically takes this into account and fast forewards, making even easier.
Oh and BTW In the PNP version it also takes several weeks (or months depending on the power level) to craft a magic item. The game automatically takes this into account and fast forewards, making even easier.
I have the heart of a small boy,
I keep in a jar on my desk.
I keep in a jar on my desk.