In Thug's wedding announcement thread, Moltovir raised a point that has me curious. He mentions that RPGs seem to have an older audience... I have sometimes wondered about this myself. However, I'm also wondering if it is a phenomenon somewhat unique to Game Banshee, because I have stumbled across numerous RPG forums that are predominently populated by a more teenaged demographic.
At Game Banshee SYM, the BG1, BG2 and PST forums, in particular, have often had an older player base. Indeed, as I recall it was especially Baldur's Gate Two that drew people to Game Banshee in the first place....
Does anyone have any theories, data or thoughts on the subject?
Do RPGs attract an older demographic?
-
dragon wench
- Posts: 19609
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:00 pm
- Location: The maelstrom where chaos merges with lucidity
- Contact:
Do RPGs attract an older demographic?
Spoiler
testingtest12
Spoiler
testingtest12
-
moltovir
- Posts: 1072
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:00 am
- Location: Out of Brynn's longbow range
- Contact:
RPG's and TBS games need one thing that not many teenagers possess these days: patience. Thats reason #1 for me. Most young people skip tutorials or manuals and play games that require only 4-5 keys to function. Compare that to the thac0 and ac system of BG2 (it took me a long time to figure that out, since i'm not a D&D vet), and you'll know why BG2 is played more by middle-aged (between 20 and 35 years old) people. My 12-year old brother stopped playing Age of Wonders 2 after 2 hours because it "was too slow" and "too hard, with all that functions and keys!" (but, compared to really old games like Master of Orion, even AoW2 is easy as pie). Teenagers get a kick out of a nice explosion or brains splattered against the wall, but i enjoy a long, expressive, humorous (the subtle kind of humor), multiple-choice dialogue, a perfect strategic manouvre or a new spell combo which kills that near-invincible enemy.
"We are at a very serious moment dealing with very serious issues and we are not focusing on the name you give to potatoes" - Nathalie Loisau
[QUOTE=moltovir]RPG's and TBS games need one thing that not many teenagers possess these days: patience. Thats reason #1 for me. Most young people skip tutorials or manuals and play games that require only 4-5 keys to function. Compare that to the thac0 and ac system of BG2 (it took me a long time to figure that out, since i'm not a D&D vet), and you'll know why BG2 is played more by middle-aged (between 20 and 35 years old) people. My 12-year old brother stopped playing Age of Wonders 2 after 2 hours because it "was too slow" and "too hard, with all that functions and keys!" (but, compared to really old games like Master of Orion, even AoW2 is easy as pie). Teenagers get a kick out of a nice explosion or brains splattered against the wall, but i enjoy a long, expressive, humorous (the subtle kind of humor), multiple-choice dialogue, a perfect strategic manouvre or a new spell combo which kills that near-invincible enemy.[/QUOTE]
I strongly disagree with you, I am 17 year old and I have played bg1+2 iwd 1+2, Fallout 1+2 and I am waiting for PST to arrive in my mailbox. And I know numerous people my age who have done the same. I think that "older" games like bg and pst are mostly played by older people, simply because young people doesn't know they exist!
An example: I discovered BG2 because my friends older brother showed me the game, the same with IWD. I found Fallout after being bored and looking for fun games on the internet, when I stumbled across Black Isles old page.
And I discovered PST right here on Gamebanshee, which I found when I was looking for walkthroughs for NWN.
All the "old" gamer (e.g people over 25) I know play games like Doom 3, Battlefield, fifa and Diablo 2.
So I think you are wrong to say what you did about teenagers.
I strongly disagree with you, I am 17 year old and I have played bg1+2 iwd 1+2, Fallout 1+2 and I am waiting for PST to arrive in my mailbox. And I know numerous people my age who have done the same. I think that "older" games like bg and pst are mostly played by older people, simply because young people doesn't know they exist!
An example: I discovered BG2 because my friends older brother showed me the game, the same with IWD. I found Fallout after being bored and looking for fun games on the internet, when I stumbled across Black Isles old page.
And I discovered PST right here on Gamebanshee, which I found when I was looking for walkthroughs for NWN.
All the "old" gamer (e.g people over 25) I know play games like Doom 3, Battlefield, fifa and Diablo 2.
So I think you are wrong to say what you did about teenagers.
This is my signature.
-
moltovir
- Posts: 1072
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:00 am
- Location: Out of Brynn's longbow range
- Contact:
I based that answer on my own experiences. I also know 25-year olds that play Doom 3 and teenagers that play RPG's, but most of the gamers that i know only play hacknslash, fps and rts.
"We are at a very serious moment dealing with very serious issues and we are not focusing on the name you give to potatoes" - Nathalie Loisau
I think Moltovir makes an excellent point. There is a reason for the Console Explosion and the seemingly dire times for RPGs on the computer. Tabletop gaming is of course a completely different matter, as it's a social gathering. Some 10-15 years ago, RPGs were the royalty of computer gaming. There is not a doubt in my mind that this was due to the fact that mostly older people owned their own personal computers. Younger people were stuck in the arcades playing their shoot-em-ups or fighting games. Most people I knew who had consoles like the Megadrive at home, bought them for their kids. Today most kids have their very own machine AND a console, as well as Gameboys and even games on their mobiles. Hence, instant-access games are at the top of the statistics.
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
Au Contraire, Asriel. The RPGs, the very FEW true RPGs produced today are actually rather brilliant. Morrowind and Beyond Divinity for instance. Which of course leads us back The Wench's initial question, with a little twist: Do you have have to be an adult to discover and enjoy traditional RPGs?
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
[QUOTE=Moonbiter]Au Contraire, Asriel. The RPGs, the very FEW true RPGs produced today are actually rather brilliant. Morrowind and Beyond Divinity for instance.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but how should teenagers with little to none experience in the field be able to tell the really good rpgs from the horrible ones, If you look at the back, most of them mostly say the same
I agree, but how should teenagers with little to none experience in the field be able to tell the really good rpgs from the horrible ones, If you look at the back, most of them mostly say the same
This is my signature.
A quick search on the web tells me that according to sales statistics and polls, the average age of computer gamers have rised over the last 5-6 years. I found no age statistics for type of games though, but I am sure such statistics can be found.
My personal experience is that on internet, it's not the type of game but the style of the forum that determines the age of the members. I have heard some people claim that only kids play D2 and RPG:s like Planescape or Baldur's gate is for more "mature" and "intelligent" people. However, I am a member of two Diablo forums, and although I haven't exactly made a matrix with demographic data, I am fairly sure that both D2 forums have a higher average age and a higher average educational level than SYM or the BG2 has.
Of course gamer's demographics cannot be assessed from forum populations only, a vast number of people play games without ever using internet forums related to those games.
My personal experience is that on internet, it's not the type of game but the style of the forum that determines the age of the members. I have heard some people claim that only kids play D2 and RPG:s like Planescape or Baldur's gate is for more "mature" and "intelligent" people. However, I am a member of two Diablo forums, and although I haven't exactly made a matrix with demographic data, I am fairly sure that both D2 forums have a higher average age and a higher average educational level than SYM or the BG2 has.
Of course gamer's demographics cannot be assessed from forum populations only, a vast number of people play games without ever using internet forums related to those games.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
[QUOTE=Moonbiter]Au Contraire, Asriel. The RPGs, the very FEW true RPGs produced today are actually rather brilliant. Morrowind and Beyond Divinity for instance. <snip>[/QUOTE]
That is so much personal taste.
You can't claim Morrowind is a brilliant RPG, and then use it as an argument.
I find it trivial and bland at best.
I know it has won awards, gotten good reviews and sold large numbers, but so has Diablo.
Claiming games are brilliant (or the oppersite) is purely subjective.
That is so much personal taste.
You can't claim Morrowind is a brilliant RPG, and then use it as an argument.
I find it trivial and bland at best.
I know it has won awards, gotten good reviews and sold large numbers, but so has Diablo.
Claiming games are brilliant (or the oppersite) is purely subjective.
Insert signature here.
-
Ned Flanders
- Posts: 4867
- Joined: Mon May 28, 2001 10:00 pm
- Location: Springfield
- Contact:
I started playing CRPG's as a preteen and I still play them. For me personally, it is a combination of my preteen D&D days and my father's interest in video games.
A few years after playing D&D, I found wizardry I, II, III, etc..., followed by gateway to and temple of apshai (epyx), , the ultima series, the bard's tale(s), below the root, SSI D&D game, questron, zelda series, wizards crown, and up to BG's, IWD's, NWN's, Morrowind, fable, KoToR, etc...
Basically, I've been playing them since I found them. I think it just depends on the person. I would agree that GB is, for the most part, an older community. But by that measure I don't think it's right to say only older people play CRPG's.
I'm not certain patience is a relevant factor either. I've been devoid of patience all my life but I've yet to have a problem dissecting a 200 page video game manual.
Regarding the average of age of the gamers I think has many factors. First and foremost is exposure. 10 to 15 years ago, computers were not a household item. Now they're everywhere, to not have one in the home almost seems odd. Because computers are everywhere, you've got more companies making games, competitive marketing, and parents who want to know what their kids are into. Parents in tune start to like certain games as they're not all mindless plus I think it helps people feel young, certainly a better alternative than plastic surgery. You can also factor in cost and global divorce rate or total population period. More single older people who need something to do with their time. A 14 year old is doubtful to save up 1500-2000 dollars to buy a new system but an adult might have an easier time coming up with the cash. Doom 3 alone probably raised the average age of the gamer by 2-3 years. By the time you've completed upgraded your system so you can run the damn game with a decent frame rate, one has probably dropped close to a thousand dollars.
A few years after playing D&D, I found wizardry I, II, III, etc..., followed by gateway to and temple of apshai (epyx), , the ultima series, the bard's tale(s), below the root, SSI D&D game, questron, zelda series, wizards crown, and up to BG's, IWD's, NWN's, Morrowind, fable, KoToR, etc...
Basically, I've been playing them since I found them. I think it just depends on the person. I would agree that GB is, for the most part, an older community. But by that measure I don't think it's right to say only older people play CRPG's.
I'm not certain patience is a relevant factor either. I've been devoid of patience all my life but I've yet to have a problem dissecting a 200 page video game manual.
Regarding the average of age of the gamers I think has many factors. First and foremost is exposure. 10 to 15 years ago, computers were not a household item. Now they're everywhere, to not have one in the home almost seems odd. Because computers are everywhere, you've got more companies making games, competitive marketing, and parents who want to know what their kids are into. Parents in tune start to like certain games as they're not all mindless plus I think it helps people feel young, certainly a better alternative than plastic surgery. You can also factor in cost and global divorce rate or total population period. More single older people who need something to do with their time. A 14 year old is doubtful to save up 1500-2000 dollars to buy a new system but an adult might have an easier time coming up with the cash. Doom 3 alone probably raised the average age of the gamer by 2-3 years. By the time you've completed upgraded your system so you can run the damn game with a decent frame rate, one has probably dropped close to a thousand dollars.
Crush enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women.
-
dragon wench
- Posts: 19609
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:00 pm
- Location: The maelstrom where chaos merges with lucidity
- Contact:
lol! I didn't expect that many replies in so short a time! 
I have been thinking a bit about this since posting. I think what may have happened is that around the time Buck began Game Banshee games such as the Fallout series, BG series and PST were at their peak. It is possible these games attract an older audience, and perhaps individuals in this category helped to lay the foundations of GB...hence the older demographic.
I have also noticed, of late, that there are many younger members now at GB, as well as at SYM. I'm wondering if this is a reflection of the shifts that have occurred in the RPG genre in that it has, in many cases, become more action-oriented.
Not to say that all teens only like action games btw
I have been thinking a bit about this since posting. I think what may have happened is that around the time Buck began Game Banshee games such as the Fallout series, BG series and PST were at their peak. It is possible these games attract an older audience, and perhaps individuals in this category helped to lay the foundations of GB...hence the older demographic.
I have also noticed, of late, that there are many younger members now at GB, as well as at SYM. I'm wondering if this is a reflection of the shifts that have occurred in the RPG genre in that it has, in many cases, become more action-oriented.
Not to say that all teens only like action games btw
Spoiler
testingtest12
Spoiler
testingtest12
-
Bloodstalker
- Posts: 15512
- Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2001 10:00 pm
- Location: Hell if I know
- Contact:
[QUOTE=dragon wench]
I have also noticed, of late, that there are many younger members now at GB, as well as at SYM. I'm wondering if this is a reflection of the shifts that have occurred in the RPG genre in that it has, in many cases, become more action-oriented.
Not to say that all teens only like action games btw [/QUOTE]
I attribute it to the fact that with each passing year, the ages I consider to be younger grow while the ages I consider to be older shrink
I have also noticed, of late, that there are many younger members now at GB, as well as at SYM. I'm wondering if this is a reflection of the shifts that have occurred in the RPG genre in that it has, in many cases, become more action-oriented.
Not to say that all teens only like action games btw
[/QUOTE]I attribute it to the fact that with each passing year, the ages I consider to be younger grow while the ages I consider to be older shrink
Lord of Lurkers
Guess what? I got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Guess what? I got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!
the average RPG player is probably older, yes, but the average is pretty skewed by fable...
to be honest, I don't think there's all that much difference. it's just that, as games go, some of the most involving and intelligent stories are in RPGs, although you may have to search a bit. so it would follow that the long-time gamer would probably have a fondness for some RPG or other, because there are some bloody good ones out there.
however older players in my experience, prefer puzzle games - tetris, bust a move, and so forth. probably less taxing for the poor dears.
to be honest, I don't think there's all that much difference. it's just that, as games go, some of the most involving and intelligent stories are in RPGs, although you may have to search a bit. so it would follow that the long-time gamer would probably have a fondness for some RPG or other, because there are some bloody good ones out there.
however older players in my experience, prefer puzzle games - tetris, bust a move, and so forth. probably less taxing for the poor dears.
Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm
Of lying epitaths their secrets keep,
At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
Of lying epitaths their secrets keep,
At last incapable of further harm
The lewd forefathers of the village sleep.
Here's a pretty good comparison..
Me (22/m/Sacramento CA USA)
Baldur's Gate Series
Icewind Dale Series
Pool of Radiance: RoMD (2000?)
Fallout Series (and FOT)
Dungeon Siege
Empire Earth
Age of Empires Series
Age of Mythology
Diablo Series
Deus Ex Series
Max Payne Series
Black & White
Morrowind
Friend (22/m/Sacramento CA USA)
Doom Series
Quake Series
Diablo Series
Unreal Series
Sacred
Star Wars (XWing/TIEFighter)
Descent Series
Age of Empires Series
Far Cry
Anyway..hope you understand. We are in the same exact demographic and he likes games that you basically just run around and kill stuff..whereas I like to take my time to run around and kill stuff.
Oh, and he NEVER looks at a manual and he NEVER goes through tutorials. And then when he can't figure out the controls he starts bashing his keyboard and screaming that "the stupid game doesn't work!".
I also tend to play the games I play because I have little to no hand-eye coordination or reflexes to speak of
I said this once either on here or on the wizards.com boards and I will say it again.
"In the great war that is life, there are Meat Shields and there are Strategists.
I am a Strategist." -All me baby!
Me (22/m/Sacramento CA USA)
Baldur's Gate Series
Icewind Dale Series
Pool of Radiance: RoMD (2000?)
Fallout Series (and FOT)
Dungeon Siege
Empire Earth
Age of Empires Series
Age of Mythology
Diablo Series
Deus Ex Series
Max Payne Series
Black & White
Morrowind
Friend (22/m/Sacramento CA USA)
Doom Series
Quake Series
Diablo Series
Unreal Series
Sacred
Star Wars (XWing/TIEFighter)
Descent Series
Age of Empires Series
Far Cry
Anyway..hope you understand. We are in the same exact demographic and he likes games that you basically just run around and kill stuff..whereas I like to take my time to run around and kill stuff.
Oh, and he NEVER looks at a manual and he NEVER goes through tutorials. And then when he can't figure out the controls he starts bashing his keyboard and screaming that "the stupid game doesn't work!".
I also tend to play the games I play because I have little to no hand-eye coordination or reflexes to speak of
I said this once either on here or on the wizards.com boards and I will say it again.
"In the great war that is life, there are Meat Shields and there are Strategists.
I am a Strategist." -All me baby!
[QUOTE=moltovir]RPG's and TBS games need one thing that not many teenagers possess these days: patience. [/QUOTE]
Question is, is patience in computer games age-related? Lacking statistics, I can just use my personal reference frame, but I am 34 years old and most of my friends are between 20-50. I also have some friends with teenage kids. Among my younger friends, role playing games and strategy games are most popular. One of my friends has two daughters of 14 and 16, and she is amazed how they can spend hours on micromanaging in strategy games. Among my older friends (my own age and upwards) few have the time and patience for RPG:s. I played the BG-series while I was on sick-leave for ulcer and my lab was closed for technical equipment change - since then I have only played games like Warcraft III and my personal favorite Diablo II. I described D2 to my room mate who is 46 years, and she said: "That sounds like the perfect game for me!"
Both my husband and I tried Morrowind and Neverwinter nights, but I didn't even make it out of the first village and he just barely made it and gave up when all he found outside the village was a dagger in a barrel. He is 36, and his favorite game is Quake and the likes. None of us had the patience for neither Fallout nor Neverwinter nights. I am just like Paranitis' friend, I never read manuals and wouldn't even think of going through a tutorial.
All my friends in my age have demanding full time jobs and focus a lot on their career. Many also have children. Time is scarce, and when you relax, the least you want is slow, patience-demanding RPG:s that requires you spend hours and hours reading manuals and dialogues!
[QUOTE=Asriel]I think that "older" games like bg and pst are mostly played by older people, simply because young people doesn't know they exist![/QUOTE]
I think this is a very valid point.
Question is, is patience in computer games age-related? Lacking statistics, I can just use my personal reference frame, but I am 34 years old and most of my friends are between 20-50. I also have some friends with teenage kids. Among my younger friends, role playing games and strategy games are most popular. One of my friends has two daughters of 14 and 16, and she is amazed how they can spend hours on micromanaging in strategy games. Among my older friends (my own age and upwards) few have the time and patience for RPG:s. I played the BG-series while I was on sick-leave for ulcer and my lab was closed for technical equipment change - since then I have only played games like Warcraft III and my personal favorite Diablo II. I described D2 to my room mate who is 46 years, and she said: "That sounds like the perfect game for me!"
Both my husband and I tried Morrowind and Neverwinter nights, but I didn't even make it out of the first village and he just barely made it and gave up when all he found outside the village was a dagger in a barrel. He is 36, and his favorite game is Quake and the likes. None of us had the patience for neither Fallout nor Neverwinter nights. I am just like Paranitis' friend, I never read manuals and wouldn't even think of going through a tutorial.
All my friends in my age have demanding full time jobs and focus a lot on their career. Many also have children. Time is scarce, and when you relax, the least you want is slow, patience-demanding RPG:s that requires you spend hours and hours reading manuals and dialogues!
[QUOTE=Asriel]I think that "older" games like bg and pst are mostly played by older people, simply because young people doesn't know they exist![/QUOTE]
I think this is a very valid point.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums