kensai/thieve in ToB

toto212 · Post by **toto212** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 2:52 am

Just a few thought about this combination :

I tried it in ToB.

I created a neutral/evil kensai in ToB then dual classed him into thieve. You can reach level 9-10 easily with your thief thanks to the slayer transformation and after a few hours of play the thieve level was greater than the kensai one.

And this is AWESOME !!

You've got the perfect assassin. Sneak/hide/backstab and and KAI !
Using the kai ability before a backstab is awesome

Use any item is overpowerful. It allows your kensai to wear ANY armor, bracer or whatever he likes. White Dragon scale gives you -2 AC and your thieving skill remains available.

And most of all, what I find VERY VERY funny is that you can use the Carsomyr with an evil caracter ..... A lawful/good sword used by an evil guy .... just too funny ...

PS: this caracter is simply awesome : plenty of traps (the new traps are incredible), backstabs, assasination , wonderful thacO (-10/-8), Incredible AC : ( -19 with shield of harmony), sneak,hide,detect trap and illusion .. Carsomyr as 2 handed weapon .. axe of unyedling as one handed and spectral brand for backstabbing.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: jason31 ]

bst6 · Post by **bst6** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 5:32 am

Glad to hear this. I'm playing a Kensai right now in SoA, am at level 14 and was planning to go thief at level 15 to be able to still make lvl 39 as a thief

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:43 am

"dum di dy di dum... need i say more?"
"what do you mean"
"nothing - nothing..."
"are you saying CHEESE"

Would i say such a thing???

bst6 · Post by **bst6** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:29 am

bah, cheese isn't bad until you become an expert in a game.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 3:15 pm

Originally posted by Drag00n:
bah, cheese isn't bad until you become an expert in a game.

Hey, that's an interesting new theory!

So something that is cheesy for one player isn't cheesy for another?

Must meditate on that...

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:12 pm

I don't see why a kensai/thief is cheese. Isn't cheese taking advantage of bugs in the game? A kensai/thief was designed to work the way it does. I'm sure the developers thought of that when they made the 'use any item' ability. It makes no sense to role play, but that does not make it cheese. Anyways, just thought I'd put in my two cents.

rapier · Post by **rapier** » Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:15 pm

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
. I'm sure the developers thought of that when they made the 'use any item' ability. .

Let's put that: "I'm sure the developers smoked crack when they made the 'use any item' ability"...

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 12:15 am

I thought the "use any item ability" was good

Made my thief a lot better and finally got to use some of those items that were for a specific class that I didn't have.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:45 am

The idea behind the Kensai's AC bonus is that they can dodge blows better while not wearing armor. Their attack/damage bonus probably also stems from training to fight more effectively without armor. Being Fighters, they should be able to wear some armor anyway, but that would be contrary to their "beliefs". Them not losing the AC bonus when they (after dualling to Thief) equip armor makes no sense, unless Use Any Item also includes training to use armor as if you're not wearing any. If I had to guess between that or the designers not spotting this exploit (or simply not being bothered enough to prevent it), the choice is simple. The (almost) same, of course, applies to Wizard Slayer-Thieves and Cleric-Thieves.

"My god requires his Clerics to use blunt weapons... but he makes an exception for me on account of me being a Thief!"

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:05 am

Like I said, those make absolutely no sense from a role playing perspective, but I do not think that this is a bug, and therefore I do not think it is cheese.

bst6 · Post by **bst6** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:39 am

Originally posted by Xyx:
Hey, that's an interesting new theory! So something that is cheesy for one player isn't cheesy for another?

Must meditate on that...

But of course. When you approach the game you don't know the tricks. Of course I would've wanted to kill the dragon, and my first time thru would've frustrated the crap out of me to the point i might have given up. that is, if i didn't use what i know realize now is cheese tactics for killing the red dragon, i doubt i could've beat him. I would've fought, died, faught died. Now if i had a stronger understanding of spells and things like casting magic resistance on the dragon i might have stood more of a chance. for anyone who's solo'd the game or such, many tactics i used would be embassasing to them. I had fun doing them because the game progressed, but another time i came to him i killed him with hack slash and magic. a very bloody battle where only two chars survived.

As for use any item, i doubt i'd ever play a theif without it. I consider them the weakest player. maybe that belief will change by using this combo

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:58 am

Its a thin line between power gaming and cheese but this is probably a young camembert - not quite gorgonzola.

Here is another little taster for you.

Cream cheese: staff of magic exploit.

Mozzarella: greenstone amulet from mordenkain

Cheddar (medium Irish): repeat stealing to sell to fences.

gorgonzola: 2x gax, 2x ram

Garlic goat cheese with extra goat and garlic (mature): run in hit/run out, cloudkill out of sight, trap when blue.

Runny joe's: fake talk

thats just a small cheese plater and there are many other kinds to sample such as blade barrier + sanctuary etc.

weell of course thats just what my taste buds tell me...

(edit)

actually having had a second taste i am now sure its..(spoiler)
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BLUE WENSLEYDALE SMOKED: From the Hawes Creamery, the first blue smoked cheese.

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Tom ]

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 7:12 am

There is, of course, a thin yet distinct line between good tactics and abusing an exploit.

Cloudkilling Dragons = exploit. No "normal" Dragon would camp out in a Cloudkill.

Trapping blue creatures = exploit. No creature would just sit there and watch a Thief build elaborate traps, only to step into them a moment later.

Staff of the Magi = tactics. It feels incredibly cheesy, but this is what the thing was made for.

Setting a buttload of traps out of sight and luring red creatures into them = tactics. If that isn't how traps were meant to be used, then how?

Characters using items forbidden to them by their ethos with Use Any Item = exploit. The designers were simply too lazy to prevent this.

Kensai dualling to Mage = tactics. The designers felt that Stalker-Cleric was somehow wrong and banned it, yet did not touch the Kensai-Mage. It's there by design. Bad roleplaying: could be, exploit: no.

Using Project Image = tactics. This spell seems Cheese Incarnate, yet is good for nothing else but duplicating your spells. The fact that it also duplicates items is a fortunate side effect (or unfortunate, depending how you view it) and has, as far as I know, never been confirmed as unintentional.

Keeping Yoshimo around = exploit. He was meant to go.

etc...

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Xyx ]

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 7:23 am

Originally posted by Xyx:
Trapping blue creatures = exploit. No creature would just sit there and watch a Thief build elaborate traps, only to step into them a moment later.

With one possible exception: the Shadow Dragon. Since you're given a wardstone to cause it to ignore you, I see no problem with laying traps around it.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 7:56 am

xyx

I disagree - there is no real thin distinct line between good tactics and cheese.

I consider the staff of magic to be cheesy when exploited (laughing cow to be exact).

This is because i dont recognise the designeres as the finnal authority so i dont care what they could be bothered to do or not or what their pallet for cheese is.

its cheesy and the kensai/mage is in the the same spectrum (maybe Kiri (french soft cheese)).

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:41 am

Where's the Wisconsin?

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:09 am

Wisconsin Extra Sharp - constant camping right in the middle of heavily fortified and defended dungeon or stronghold.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:18 am

im afraid i cant say untill you you let me know the kind of wisconsin cheese you are talking about.

I presume you are refering to one particular cheese but of course there are hundreds of wisconsin cheeses - many of them are cheddars and they of course comes in differernt strenghts and smoked or non-smoked etc.

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Tom ]

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:37 pm

Originally posted by Tom:
I consider the staff of magic to be cheesy when exploited (laughing cow to be exact).

its cheesy and the kensai/mage is in the the same spectrum (maybe Kiri (french soft cheese)).

Aren't those two the same cheese?

"La Vache Qui Rit" or something?

]RiPPeR[ · Post by **]RiPPeR[** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:23 pm

well , being cheese or not kensai/thief is the best class in the game, my kensai/thief is on level 18/26 using white dragon scale and dual wielding spectral brand and that long sword +5 wich makes your strengt 22 and gives imunity to level drain, his thac0 is about -15,-13 and with the combination assassination/kai each hit does more than 200 damage, using the hability greater evasion his armor class may drop to -20 without problem, if he had 100% ,magic resistance he would be imortal