discussion: underpowered and unbalanced classes & races in 3rd ed. rules

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:43 am

.

...it's really a pity how underpowered most of the classes in 3rd edition rules are:

ranger

most useless class in 3rd edition from my point of view !

the 1st two fighter levels (2 bonus feats) gives you everything a ranger has besides some SP and the favoured enemy bonus !

so with a fighter 2/4 - rogue 3 - druid or cleric X you will always have a better build then any ranger !

...even as a mix in for a MC-build only one level is usefull - but in most case you should take 2 or 3 level to avoid the EXP-mali !

bard

...besides the bard songs - there is nothing that a fighter 2/4 rogue 3 - sorcerer X - couldn't do better !

paladin

great as a mix in for a MC-build but after the 2nd level you have more or less all benefits a paladin gives !

you will have get a much better "paladin" with a paladin 2 - fighter 2 - monk 3 - cleric X - MC-build then a pure paladin could ever be !

monk

one of the of the best MC mix in classes - like the paladin 3 levels are great - but after the 3rd level quite useless !

the monk has a few nice high level boni but there aren't any good MC-builds with a monk as major class and a pure monk is just weak !

fighter

also great mix in for a MC-build but only the tons of boni feats doesn't make him usefull especially if there aren't that many good feats and no special fighter feats !

barb

same problem as the monk - some good boni - but very late and not good enough to match with a good MC-build - nice mix in for non lawfull MC-builds.

but compared to other classes one of the more usefull ones...

could be the major class of a MC-build and even as SC not that bad!

rogue

some good boni at low and medium level - also not a SC-build but could be a good choice for the major class of a MC-build and is definetly a great mix im for every MC-build (3 levels)

sorc, cleric, wizard, druid

...compared to other classes completly overpowered !

...you really get something for every level !

great as SC-builds and even better as major class of a MC-build !

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silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:53 am

races

.

same problem with the races:

drow

...drow rules !

+ SR is great, stat boni & free feats and diverse other boni

- being 2 classes behind...-...totally overrated - (cause you start with more EXP and keep the average party level lower = more EXP for all!)

- outside during day - not a problem at all (rest during day - most of the time you are inside)

deep-gnomes

...the 2nd extremly powerfull race for the same reasons as the drow - but personally I don't like DG !

...but the +4 on AC and the defensive buffs could be really nice !

aasimars

...great choice for clerics, druids, sorcs, monks & paladins !

human

...not that great - besides you can minimize INT and get 2 SP per level
also the extra feat isn't that bad

tiefling

good choice for rogue or wizard builds

wild-elf

only good thing: sorc as favored class & and 2 martial weapon feats

elf

drows are always the *much* better choice !

half-elf

once my favoured race - now most useless class ever !

half-orc, dwarfs

could be a good for all fighter-type classes - but as posted above best choice are MC-builds with a pure caster as major class:

so if you build something like a barb or fighter combined with a cleric or druid...

...this could work quite well with these races

duergar

another completely useless race - for what reason are they ECL 2 ?!

gnome

same as for elves - deep-hgnomes are just the better choice

halfling - all

...alltogether completely useless !

...btw. never played a small race in IWD2 - do small weapons count as normal and normal as large weapons ?

...this would make the whole thing even worse !!!

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Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:30 am

Yeah.. so what?

Well.. since i mostly roleplay (my roleplaying style) those things dont matter to me..and only thing that makes most races and some classes useless is HoF.. and becuse you are about level 16 when you finish this game..

Yeah.. i belive that some classes should get little boost.. but then in real life are all jobs balanced?

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:33 am

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].

same problem with the races:

aasimars

...great choice for clerics, druids, sorcs & monks !
.
.
.
duergar

another completely useless race - for what reason are they ECL 2 ?!

.[/QUOTE]

Aesimars are also an obvious good choice for Paladin or MC with paladin.

As for Duergars, probably they made them ECL2 to use them with a ECL heavy party, so to keep the overall party level balanced.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:53 am

[QUOTE=lompo]Aesimars are also an obvious good choice for Paladin or MC with paladin.[/QUOTE]

...to obvious

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Yeltsu · Post by **Yeltsu** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:53 am

@Silver

I beg to differ about the monk, my pure monk kicks ass!
You didn't really think that I could stay away from this post did you?

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:19 am

[QUOTE=Asriel]@Silver

I beg to differ about the monk, my pure monk kicks ass!
You didn't really think that I could stay away from this post did you?

[/QUOTE]

...no don't really thought that

...btw. you're welcome

...ok *your* monk - is certainly something special !!!

...never said that it is impossible to master IWD2 with a monk - but I'm a little surprised how easily it seems to be for *your* monk...

...you can certainly master IWD2 with many race / class combination even with combination I described as "useless"

..."useless" means for me that you can get something better instead - not that it is impossible to win the game with it !

...and believe me, there are some PC-builds out there, that are under all aspects better then your monk !

...means: higher AC, better AB, more HP, more damage per hit, equal or higher SR, a ton of buffs and spells and better use of equipment!

...btw. I've posted a drow spellsword in another thread - feel free to compare & criticise !

.

Yeltsu · Post by **Yeltsu** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:28 am

Yeah, it's probably true about the better classes and all, but I like my monk from a roleplaying perspective. I think it is more likely that someone is a monk all their life instead of a paladin 2 - fighter 2 - monk 3 - cleric X (this guy seems quite indecisive don't you think?

)

Just my point of view...

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:40 am

Oh well.. have you read forgotten realms books? well Drizzilt Do'rk books are enough..

for me Drizzilt Do'rk would be in IWD2.. 1 barb/4 Fighter/Ranger X.. but then he knows how to cast some spell.. so is he wizard too?

For those who havent red Drizzilt Do'rk books i will explain..

Four levels fighter in fighter school in Mezhafsf.. then barbarian level in underdark.. then rager under teachings of blind owl guy..

+he casted one spell if i remember correctly..

I dont mean to offend those who like Drizzilt Do'rk.. but if you got idea that i have red all Drizzilt Do'rk books.. you got right idea..but still those names are too hard to remeber correctly..

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:05 am

[QUOTE=Asriel]Yeah, it's probably true about the better classes and all, but I like my monk from a roleplaying perspective. I think it is more likely that someone is a monk all their life instead of a paladin 2 - fighter 2 - monk 3 - cleric X (this guy seems quite indecisive don't you think?

)

Just my point of view...[/QUOTE]

hmmm...-...maybe just someone worshipping Ilmater fighting unarmored with a 2-handed sword for honor and against injustice and casting some divine spells ?

...it's a MC-build - but one that fit's together very well - from my point of view...

...if you play your monk just for roleplaying reasons this is fine (but therefore she's a little bit to min-maxed - don't you think ?)

...but roleplaying issues shouldn't be the point of this thread -

...and I admit it was my intention to be a little provocative...

...but just to get a good discussion

.

VoBo · Post by **VoBo** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:09 pm

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].

halfling - all

...alltogether completely useless !

.[/QUOTE]

God man what are you thinking? Halflings are the best rogues in the game, they take the tieflings every day! You can also choose the halfling race which has got favoured class barbarian. Then you get extra feat in the beginning and you also get natural snares which indeed can be very usefull. With this halfling you can make a barb2/rogueX which runs like hell and also can rage backstab. He deals loads of dmg later in the game, I used my rogue to backstab bosses and then use the different sneak attack feats on them. Think of it, you have a rogue wielding a greatsword which, on only level 2 barbarian/level 3 rogue, gives him 4d6 dmg plus the rage bonus. Later in the game when you have got all the sneak attack feats you can, if you like being nasty, go in behind a boss, backstab him for 8d6 dmg + bonuses and get him useless for a couple of rounds with feats. This char easily kills a strong enemy, or one of your chars, in about 3 hits. DO NOT SAY HALFLINGS ARE USELESS!

I love halfling, mostly becouse of the RPG point of view. Who havn't played a insane halfling sorceror in all their time of RPGs?

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:10 pm

I don't think that Bards are too underpowered. They are a little in IWD2, they should really start with MW: Bows and could use a few more spells, but aside from that they are actually pretty good. The build you suggest, Fight2-4/Rogue3/Sorcx is not directly superior to a Fighter/Bard mix. While I personally like the Fighter/Sorc/Rogue build Fighter/Bard has some advantages over it, mainly more HP and better base attack bonuses, but Bards can also heal themselves and use their Songs for handy tricks. Bards are also able to get a better range of spells quickly at low levels. For example, a 4th level bard knows 3 1st and 2 2nd level spells. a 4th level sorc only knows 1 2nd. At 5th level the Bard again knows more spells than a Sorc., though the Sorc. can cast more times and has a wider range to choose from when selecting.

The best tihing about the Bard is that you get useful spell casting without sacrificing too much combat ability. The Fighter/Sorc/Rogue will never be a great warrior because of all the Sorc. levels needed to be a decent caster. Sorc's have the worst HP and BaB and gain spells qiuite slowly at lower levels. To be honest, fighter and rogue levels are pretty wasted in this build because your character is trying to avoid melee combat. Taking only enough Sorc levels to get say 4th level spells is, IMHO a better option. To get a decent range of 4th level spells you need 11 levels of Soerceror (this gives 3 4th level spell choices, Improved Invis., Stoneskin and perhaps Vit. Sphere or Fireshield).

Taking the same number of Bard levels gives you the same number of 4th level spells, but your options are perhaps better (Improved Invis., Dismissal/Dominate Person/Hold Monster (all of these are 5th level Sorc) and Cure Critical Wounds are all appealing) but you have 22 more Hp, +3 Base attack bonus and better saving throws (Bards favour both Reflex and Will saves, whereas Sorc. only favour Will). The Sorc. will be able to cast more often, but the Bard will be better equiped to win the fight.

As with all characters though it depends on what they are supposed to do. The Fighter/Bard is better equiped to handle combat, the Fighter/Rogue/Sorc. will long term be a more powerful spell caster by far.

Also, I think Humans are about the best race there is! Extra skill points and a bonus feat on generation and extra skill points each level after is great! So is the fact that they can favour any class makingthem the idea multiclass race.

Drow are very powerful, the spell resistance is a big plus. As is the net 4 extra attribute point advantage and the chance to up Charisma. Only problem is their favoured class is Wizard, making them hard to multiclass effectively in major combat classes. A single class Drow is great, but any multiclass Drow will usually be mainly a Wizard, reducing it's combat effectiveness. Still if your strategy is to win by disabling everyone with spells and then just cut them up this will work.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:48 am

[QUOTE=Heidrek]
Also, I think Humans are about the best race there is! Extra skill points and a bonus feat on generation and extra skill points each level after is great! So is the fact that they can favour any class makingthem the idea multiclass race.

Drow are very powerful, the spell resistance is a big plus. ... Only problem is their favoured class is Wizard, making them hard to multiclass effectively in major combat classes. A single class Drow is great, but any multiclass Drow will usually be mainly a Wizard, reducing it's combat effectiveness. [QUOTE]

I agree with you for the Humans, they are very effective, specially if you like min-max abilities.

As for the drow, remember that they also have cleric as favoured class, and that gives you a wider choice for your MC combos, another advantage of this already powerfull race.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:04 am

[QUOTE=VoBo]God man what are you thinking? Halflings are the best rogues in the game, they take the tieflings every day! You can also choose the halfling race which has got favoured class barbarian. Then you get extra feat in the beginning and you also get natural snares which indeed can be very usefull. With this halfling you can make a barb2/rogueX which runs like hell and also can rage backstab. He deals loads of dmg later in the game, I used my rogue to backstab bosses and then use the different sneak attack feats on them. Think of it, you have a rogue wielding a greatsword which, on only level 2 barbarian/level 3 rogue, gives him 4d6 dmg plus the rage bonus. Later in the game when you have got all the sneak attack feats you can, if you like being nasty, go in behind a boss, backstab him for 8d6 dmg + bonuses and get him useless for a couple of rounds with feats. This char easily kills a strong enemy, or one of your chars, in about 3 hits. DO NOT SAY HALFLINGS ARE USELESS!

I love halfling, mostly becouse of the RPG point of view. Who havn't played a insane halfling sorceror in all their time of RPGs?

[/QUOTE]

ok let's compare a halfling with a tiefling!

...btw. I stated that rogues are one of the best non-pure caster classes !

halfling:

STR -2
DEX +2
1 bonus feat or +1 on all saves or set snares
all other boni are not worth to be mentioned !

tiefling:

DEX +2
INT +2
+5 elemental resistance !
cast blindness
ECL-1

...overall the tiefling has 4 more stat points and can max out STR - you can use weapon-finesse and max out DEX, but then you lose the damage boni from STR !

...and from my point of view the +5 elemental resistance is much more worth then a bonus feat or +1 on saves !

.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:16 am

[QUOTE=Heidrek]I don't think that Bards are too underpowered. They are a little in IWD2, they should really start with MW: Bows and could use a few more spells, but aside from that they are actually pretty good. The build you suggest, Fight2-4/Rogue3/Sorcx is not directly superior to a Fighter/Bard mix. While I personally like the Fighter/Sorc/Rogue build Fighter/Bard has some advantages over it, mainly more HP and better base attack bonuses, but Bards can also heal themselves and use their Songs for handy tricks. Bards are also able to get a better range of spells quickly at low levels. For example, a 4th level bard knows 3 1st and 2 2nd level spells. a 4th level sorc only knows 1 2nd. At 5th level the Bard again knows more spells than a Sorc., though the Sorc. can cast more times and has a wider range to choose from when selecting.

The best tihing about the Bard is that you get useful spell casting without sacrificing too much combat ability. The Fighter/Sorc/Rogue will never be a great warrior because of all the Sorc. levels needed to be a decent caster. Sorc's have the worst HP and BaB and gain spells qiuite slowly at lower levels. To be honest, fighter and rogue levels are pretty wasted in this build because your character is trying to avoid melee combat. Taking only enough Sorc levels to get say 4th level spells is, IMHO a better option. To get a decent range of 4th level spells you need 11 levels of Soerceror (this gives 3 4th level spell choices, Improved Invis., Stoneskin and perhaps Vit. Sphere or Fireshield).

Taking the same number of Bard levels gives you the same number of 4th level spells, but your options are perhaps better (Improved Invis., Dismissal/Dominate Person/Hold Monster (all of these are 5th level Sorc) and Cure Critical Wounds are all appealing) but you have 22 more Hp, +3 Base attack bonus and better saving throws (Bards favour both Reflex and Will saves, whereas Sorc. only favour Will). The Sorc. will be able to cast more often, but the Bard will be better equiped to win the fight.

As with all characters though it depends on what they are supposed to do. The Fighter/Bard is better equiped to handle combat, the Fighter/Rogue/Sorc. will long term be a more powerful spell caster by far.[/QUOTE]

...don't think that a fighter/bard is better in melee !

...from my point of view the fighter/bard has 3 major disadvantages compared to a fighter/rogue/sorc (or better wizard, cause of better stat allocation)

1. no evasion
2. no tensers
3. no M-sword or black blade !

..bard is from my point of view more a support PC - I have a bard9/druidX in my party just as diplomat and for supporting the party with buffs, songs and some offensive spells !

...maybe she will get a good melee-fighter on high when shapshifted!

...btw. as long you have clerics in your party the bards cure spell is pointless!

.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:30 am

lompo wrote:
Heidrek wrote: Also, I think Humans are about the best race there is! Extra skill points and a bonus feat on generation and extra skill points each level after is great! So is the fact that they can favour any class makingthem the idea multiclass race.

Drow are very powerful, the spell resistance is a big plus. ... Only problem is their favoured class is Wizard, making them hard to multiclass effectively in major combat classes. A single class Drow is great, but any multiclass Drow will usually be mainly a Wizard, reducing it's combat effectiveness.

I agree with you for the Humans, they are very effective, specially if you like min-max abilities.

As for the drow, remember that they also have cleric as favoured class, and that gives you a wider choice for your MC combos, another advantage of this already powerfull race.

...drow mal have favored class wizard...

...but drow female have favored class cleric !

as wizards and clerics are the major classes for the most powerfull MC-builds everything is fine...

...just take 15 to 20 levels of your major class and keep the mix-ins on an equal level:

wiz 20 - rogue 3 - fighter 4 - barb 3

or

base: cleric 15 - monk 3 - pal 3 - fighter 2/4 - rogue 3

+ wizard, ranger or more cleric levels - what ever you prefer !

...humans are not that bad - but there are only a few class combination were they make sense

1. drows rule for most SC-builds and more or less all MC-builds with cleric or wizard as major race

2. aasimars are best choice for all clerics, paladins, monks and sorcs (SC & some MC-builds)

3. tieflings are best choice for all rogue-based builds

4. humans are best for almost everything else (what is not that much anymore)

btw. my bard9 / druidX is human

.

.

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:21 pm

I didn't know Drow females had Fav. class Cleric! Are there any other races that have different abilities or Fav. classes based on gender?

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:40 pm

no i am prett sure there are not any other races that do that

drow rock

....
but are evil naughty words

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:41 pm

2. aasimars are best choice for all clerics, paladins, monks and sorcs (SC & some MC-builds)

nah i have made way better monks with tieflings
12 20 15 12 18 1 in
str dex con int wis cha respectively

EDIT: SORRY I ACCIDENTLY MADE 2 POSTS IN A ROW....

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:07 am

[QUOTE=Raumoheru]nah i have made way better monks with tieflings
12 20 15 12 18 1 in
str dex con int wis cha respectively[/QUOTE]

...if you go for a SC monk you can choose from different races:

DG, Drow, Aasimar or a Tiefling

...but I would always prefer a MC-build like:

monk (Ilmater) 3 - paladin (Ilmater) 2 - cleric (Ilmater) X

...and therefore I would definetly choose an aasimar or a female drow !

...but at the end there is no good reason to choose any other race then:

DG, Drow, Aasimar, Tiefling or Human no matter which "powerfull" SC / MC-build you take in IWD2!

...ok someone will mention that a half-orc fighter4 / barbX or a similar build is also powerfull - but I don't like these builds

.