Seeking party creation advice

[Qwinn]

The following questions all apply to a full HoW install with the free download expansion installed. I'm beginning a game from scratch.

Question 1) Do Cleric/Rangers still get access to all druid spells? Or only if the Ranger half has access to that druid level? One poster noted that it changed between IWD and HOW, and I'd like to confirm. Even if it changed and all druid spells are no longer available, is it still a good idea to have a ranger in some respect, due to restricted quests or needed abilities?

Question 2) Is grandmastery in a single weapon type worth more than versatility among various weapon types, given what's available? GM is nerfed in BG2, is it here as well?

Question 3) Why is everyone saying to dual class fighters at level 9 even for HoW installs, when in BG2 which operates on a similar ruleset level 13 is considered the most logical point at which to dual a fighter (extra half attack/round, another saving throw boost, and much better long term THACO)? Are any of these rules missing in IWD?

Question 4) IN THE CONTEXT OF USABLE ITEMS THAT CAN BE FOUND IN GAME, what race is better in terms of a fighter-thief, dwarf or halfling? I keep hearing about some fatigue-dispelling halfling helm that's nice, but I've also read nice things said about the items accessible to dwarven fighter-thieves. If you think there's a "must-have" item dependent upon these decisions, let me know!

Question 5) If I go with a ranger, what would be a good racial enemy? I've searched these boards extensively, and there's been almost no discussion of this question. The only two answers I've found given are "some sort of undead" (well, that narrows it down to 3, yay, but which type? Spectral? Cadaverous?) and "salamander", which doesn't quite appeal on an RP basis.

Question 6) Is it possible to be a gnome mage (for the int bonus) without specializing in illusions? If not, what's the best race for an unspecialized mage? I'd guess elven.

Question 7) I definetly want a dwarf cleric. The question is, should he be a cleric, or a fighter-cleric? Does pure-classing the cleric make a big difference in terms of the potency of spells/turn undead when they'd be most useful?



To give you the context in which I'm asking these questions, I'm currently making up my party after researching several threads on this board. Given the answers I -believe- I'm going to get to the above questions, this is what I'm planning on:

Human Paladin
Human Fighter-Druid (dual class at level 13)
Halfling Fighter-Thief
Dwarven Fighter-Cleric
Half-Elven Bard
Gnome Mage with no specialization if possible, elven mage if not



One last question based on that party - are there any alignments that I really really should have for any of those characters? Like, there's that -awesome- item for bards, but the bard has to be of neutral alignment to use it? I'm generally inclined to have them all be the various three good alignments, except obviously the druid.

Any other advice not specifically looked for in my questions is certainly welcome.

Thanks for the help!

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Okay, scratch one question - wasn't hard to figure out that Gnomes -do- have to be illusionists if they're going to be a mage. Oh well. Elven mage it is.

So replace it with another question - druids need a minimum charisma of 15, 17 if you're dual classing to it. But does charisma have -any- in game benefit to druids? Any at all? My memory of 2nd Ed. says no, it's all wisdom.

(In fact, I think I'm going to go with a multi fighter/druid rather than dual classing, if for no other reason then it'll take me weeks to roll up a base fighter that can afford a decent strength, dex, con, wis AND 17 charisma.)

Anyways - just to repeat. Does charisma do a darn thing for druids? I'd rather just leave it at 15 if it's not going to do me any good, I already have a male paladin and female bard with charismas of 18.

Qwinn

[JSPCHIEF]

For Ranger racial enemy I went with trolls. It's always nice to have a little extra umph when those guys are regenerating faster than I can acid-arrow their corpses.

Salamanders are frequent, but I think they're fairly weak so I wouldn't go that route.

If I went undead, I'd probably go cadaverous. It seems like you run into some good battles with mummies and the like at times when when you seem out-matched. Also, you battle a load of cadaverous in the underground of the burial isle in HOW.

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably stick with trolls or go cadaverous. Giants would be helpful for a few select areas, but strategy can overcome the difficulty of most giants.

[JSPCHIEF]

Question 7) I definetly want a dwarf cleric. The question is, should he be a cleric, or a fighter-cleric? Does pure-classing the cleric make a big difference in terms of the potency of spells/turn undead when they'd be most useful?

I went pure cleric, and still felt like the turning was very weak compared to turning in BG2. Honestly, I don't see much benefit to fighter-cleric. The cleric can be a very effective fighter as is. The game is loaded with top quality blunt weapons (maybe more than anything else). Besides, it takes long enough to get raise-dead as it is, why prolong it? I've also always been more of a pure class guy though (jack of no trades, master of one is my motto). Maybe if you gave me the reason you thought it would be better, I'd be able to support/dispell your ideas.

Overall I'm not a big fan of clerics. The casting time of healing is so long, that it rarely even heals damage incurred during casting. It's nice in tough areas where you can't rest, and they are good for buffs before major battles.

[Philos]

Starting Out

Wow,

Lot of good questions. Let me start with a very brief outline of my party. I finished IWD, then loaded HOW. Wish I had loaded it sooner. I went back to an earlier saved point and I am in the middle of HOW. I have a human Fighter, a half-elven Cleric/Ranger, human Cleric, human Mage, elven Fighter mage, and a gnome Fighter/Thief. I haven't used a Druid yet nor a single class Thief. I also haven't dual classed any character yet.

In answer to question 1. I really like the Cleric/Ranger combo. You do give up 3 or 4 levels by the end of the game but the added spell power is really helpful and takes a load off of the single class Cleric. It "appears" that all of the Druidic spells become available when the appropriate level to use them is achieved. Can't be 100% sure till I try it with a Druid. What is great at the lower levels is the 1st level spell "Entangle" I used my C/R offensively and my Cleric as a healer. Later on as you run into foes with stronger magic having two with healing (and dispel magic) is great in case the Cleric gets held, etc. The C/R had all the spells available the Cleric did (of the same level since the Cleric could advance faster) plus he had all of the Druid spells. So his inventory to choose from was almost double the Cleric's. HOWEVER, the following happened AFTER I loaded HOW. My single class Cleric has quite a number of spells available that the Cleric/Ranger does not now. Healing spells are the same but some of the other's aren't (Shield of Lathander is an example). But all in all, I have been pleased with my Cleric/Ranger.

Question 2. I did the Grand Mastery thing with my single class Fighter (probably the only real advanage a Fighter has over a Paladin or Ranger other than slightly quicker advancement due to lower xp requirements. My Fighter has an 18/18 strength, with the grand mastery and a +4 sword is (-2) to hit AC 0. My next closest fighter is my Fighter/Thief who is 2 levels behind but has an 18/76 strength and with a +4 axe he is (3) to hit AC 0. The higher strength bonuses to hit offset his being 2 levels lower so I would say YES an extra 5 on the THACO is definitely worth it especially later when some of the bad guys have substantial negative ACs. I would still do a little diversity early on such as bow or cross bow as there are some monsters that are much better taken down from a distance than face to face. I started mine with 3 on long sword, 1 on bow.

Question 3. I am just exploring BG2 and I haven't tried dual classing anyone yet, so I can't be any help there.

Question 4. Toss up. I really like my Gnome and I think their racial advantages are more suited to my style than a halfling or dwarf. But you could make an arguement for any of the 3 "smaller" folk. The helm you mentioned can be purchased from Conlon the smithy in Kuldahar. To me it is a must have item. It only works on Halflings and Gnomes. I bought it as soon as I could. It improves your AC by 4, and that character does not get fatigued (fatigue might temporarily pop up when the whole party gets it but quickly goes away on the wearer). This helm is GREAT for a thief and multiclass thief as it also as good as some of the best shields in the game. My gnome walks around with an AC of -10 and that's without Prot from Evil 10' or Defensive Harmony cast. When those are running he is AC -16. I made him a Fighter/Thief so he could use more weapons. I found a great axe that "boomerangs". It returns to the thrower's hand automatically. With his strength of 18/76 and fighter to hit table he has been deadly "sniping" away at bad guys. Hide in shadows, creep into range, throw the axe, run off out of sight, repeat till bad guy drops. That doesn't work in ALL encounters but enough to make it fun. I would call that axe a must have as well (it is somewhere in Dragon's Eye). I have started another party with a Paladin because there is a great sword only usable by Paladins in an area in Lower Dorn's Deep that's behind an abandoned building next to Malavon's lab. It looks like a great weapon but my first party had to sell it as we couldn't use it. Way early in the game in Easthaven there is a small side quest involving a broken sword (do it!!) I won't spoil it further.

Question 5. There are lots of cadaverous undead but not as many spectral. Salamanders won't be seen till Dorn's Deep and in HOW. Orcs go away (unless Orogs count) pretty quick. For consistency throughout the game I would choose Cadaverous Undead. My Cleric/Ranger has Orc and I felt I short changed him.

Question 6. You are right about the Gnome. My Elven Fighter Mage has been potent. Kind of like a Navy battle cruiser. Can't take a whole lot of damage but can sure dish it out. He is only 2 levels behind my human mage and 3 levels behind my human fighter. Twice the hit points of my mage and 2/3's the hit points of the fighter. Not a bad trade off overall. he is my bow expert as well. So he can stay off the front line and use either spells or his bow to put a whuppin' on someone. If he needs to melee he can and I just pause the action, throw his armor on and go to it.

Question 7. From what I said above about the difference between my s/c cleric and my Cleric/Ranger I would say that there "probably" is some difference. Haven't used a Dwarf yet. I like them but I would (my preference) take a half elf Cleric/Ranger over a dwarf Fighter/Cleric due to the Druid spells the Ranger gets early on. I would (my preference again) use the Dwarf as a Fighter/Thief even though he would not get to use that great helm.


Being of good (any persuasion) alignment seems beneficial. I cannot tell if there is any difference in the variances, my party all three NG, CG, LG.

Sorry this was so long but you had some good questions.

[JSPCHIEF]

Human Paladin
Human Fighter-Druid (dual class at level 13)
Halfling Fighter-Thief
Dwarven Fighter-Cleric
Half-Elven Bard
Gnome Mage with no specialization if possible, elven mage if not

That's a lot of fighters. IWD is certainly hack-n-slash, but you might consider just pure classing some of those characters. With six PCs. the exp will be spread pretty thin anyway. I went with a simple party of four (ranger, thief, mage, cleric) and enjoyed rocketing up in level. If I had to add another PC I would have taken a bard for the fun and because there are some cool bard-only items. I also would have made my thief a fighter/thief, because there is no good high level armor for thieves, but I was practically throwing away good plate mail. There is also some elven chain that would allow a fighter/mage to wear chainmail while still being able to cast spells.

Question 3) Why is everyone saying to dual class fighters at level 9 even for HoW installs, when in BG2 which operates on a similar ruleset level 13 is considered the most logical point at which to dual a fighter (extra half attack/round, another saving throw boost, and much better long term THACO)? Are any of these rules missing in IWD?

They are probably saying lvl 9 because that's the lvl you have to be at to go into HOW. I think the point is, dual before you go to HOW. They literally dump exp on you in the early stages of HOW if you do all the mini-quests, so it will take no time to catch up.

Question 4) IN THE CONTEXT OF USABLE ITEMS THAT CAN BE FOUND IN GAME, what race is better in terms of a fighter-thief, dwarf or halfling? I keep hearing about some fatigue-dispelling halfling helm that's nice, but I've also read nice things said about the items accessible to dwarven fighter-thieves. If you think there's a "must-have" item dependent upon these decisions, let me know!

Tough call. There are good items for both classes. I thought some of the items were sort of quirky though...ie. items that would be invaluable for a certain level and pretty worthless elsewhere (describes 90% of the items in IWD). I seem to remember more dwarf stuff, with the halfling helm and maybe a sling being the only halfling items. I also remember the helm being mega-expensive for what I considered mediocre attributes, but maybe I didn't pay enough attention because I didn't have a halfling.

Beyond that, I'd specialize one guy in axes, one in either long or short, if you go paladin go two-handed, and bows (long bows are prevalent). The cleric will find such an assortment of blunts, it's hard to determine which is most valuable. There aren't enough good crossbows to warrant proficiency (or too many bows to choose from).

[Qwinn]

Thanks for all the terrific advice!

Based on that, plus further research, here's what I decided to go with:

Human Paladin
Half-Elf Cleric-Ranger
Half-Elf Fighter-Druid
Half-Elf Bard
Gnome Fighter-Thief
Human Fighter-Mage (dualed at level 3, five proficiencies in bow)

I suspect I'll really miss having a dwarf somewhere along the way, but can't have everything. Honestly, it was SUCH a tossup last night on the cleric/ranger vs. dwarf cleric question, but when I rolled a cleric-ranger with 18/00 strength and great stats overall, kinda made my decision for me, heheh.

The biggest change there is actually in my "pure" mage, whom I've decided to dual class real early in the game so as to give him a nice bump in hit points and so that he can have 5 proficiencies in bows, to give him something useful to do when spells aren't the best answer.

EDIT: Bah! Turns out I can't put more than two points in one thing at the beginning. Oh well - when he duals, he'll have 3 in bow and 2 in large sword (I heard there was a nice fighter-mage only sword , and then he'll put more points into bow later.

One rather big point: Several people in this thread said that I should have my paladin put proficiencies in Great Sword - but isn't the paladin only weapon a LARGE sword?

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

For those thinking of making up their own parties, thought I'd return the favor by adding a couple things I've learned/confirmed.

1) Yup, Pale Justice is a large sword.

2) Remember how I said I was going to dual-class my fighter at level 3 to a mage? If you're planning to do the same, think twice. While it has had it's advantages (he's pretty good with a bow), it's also true that there are several magic items that work ONLY for certain mage combinations. The one that hurt most so far was a ring that put it's wearer continuously under the "Shield" spell, but was only usable by pure mages, cleric/mages and mage/thieves. Waaaah. I've noticed a couple other pure-mage only items as well. Just wanted to make sure you were aware that dual classing at level 3 might cost your mage more than 4k exp.

3) Another thing about dualling - he's "pretty good with bows", yes, but not as good as I expected him to be. If you dual from fighter to another class in IWD, you cannot put more than 2 proficiencies in a weapon after your fighter class reactivates. This is unlike BG2, where I'm pretty sure you can.

Qwinn

[JavaDave]

even if you went pure class fighter you can only go 3 in bows.