Anit-Patriotism

[Ekental]

Anti-Patriotism (Pertains to US only)

American, Americanized, USA and other related paraphernalia seem to attract a lot of flak in this forum. The most comes from those who live in America. The majority seem to be 30 years of age or younger.

There seems to be a spate of anti-patriotism amoung this age group (Myself included... I don't like the decisions etc. being made either). However I find it somewhat disturbing that one of the largest connotations associated with America is ignorant, stupid, lazy, selfish, and are in general negative.

All of us come from a diverse variety of backgrounds. Few (if any) of us are experts at government and society. This forum is full of great ideas but few of us (I would say none but I might have missed people) have had the training in any of these fields.

That being said... what right do "we" have to immediately self-derogate ourselves (our country as it were) when we know so little of it?

I don't believe I need to go into specific examples... (Unless no one understands what I'm talking about)

EDIT: Can a moderator please change the title of the thread to "Anti-Patriotism (Pertains to US citizens only)"?
I made a mistake in the name as you can see X_X (I repeated this msg to make it more visislbe at the beginning srry)

[jopperm2]

I understand completely but don't have time to answer tonight. I WILL answer tomorrow though. Great thread idea!

[CM]

A distinction i must make here is that when people refer to american most of the time they refer to the government and not its population. Atleast I attempt to make that distinction. I may loathe the actions taken by the US, but the average joe who shops at the local wal-mart can not be responsible if the govt decides to bomb Moscow. They vote for the people they feel are best for the job but they have no control over the actual decisions taken so they can not be held responsible. But they can be held responsible for their views. Say if someone votes for Le Pen or a neo-nazi party.

[Magrus]

Ooh, pick me for the anti-patriotism bandwagon!

I'd say, I have a lot of reasons. My treatment by the state years ago, resulting in being permanently disabled being top on the list. Most of all though, too many people blindly support what this government does out of idiotic pride in how "great" our country is compared to others. This is sheer idiocy, plain and simple. I cringe when I see all the little bumper stickers supporting the war, and this country and so on and so forth. I HATE seeing someone my age supporting veterans, war, and this country. Why? They aren't old enough to be a veteran, or have seen war and come back yet, and it just grates on my nerves.

Too many laws here need to be altered, they're useless or flawed. Too many systems (hospitals/health care, legal, law enforcement, taxes, political offices, education, research across the board, etc.) are seriously flawed in this country. Tearing them down and rebuilding would take time and money, and set us back, but hey, maybe, just maybe it might be worth it to look into.

I'd like to see someone, let's say a mother of three that works as a nurse or delivering pizza as a part of congress, and not just one. TONS of them, accross the board, people in such situations. Why? Most of the people in this country are either in a situation just like that, or a close relative (one or two generations off) of someone just like that. The majority of the American population, never experience life as the majority of American high-end politics do. This causes problems.

If someone making huge decisions about our country has only lived and seen and experience one end of the spectrum of our country, how can they make decisions based on the other end and in between? How can Bush make decisions for the good of the poor people? He's rich, his dad was one of the most powerful men in the world. Thats nowhere near what my existance is like. The system is setup so only the rich can achieve that level of power in this country. You won't see some guy with a 2 bedroom appartment somewhere selling cars making decisions in government. Granted, those in government need to know laws and such to effectively change things. Why not snatch up normal people, have them vote on things in a body for 4 years, and have it edited by lawyers and economists and such who serve as advisors? Do away with congress and everything as we know it and go back to something akin to the way the greeks did it. Make normal, average-joe americans the leaders, rather than the rich and powerful. Abolish the electoral college. It's proven it's flawed.

I'm jaded about the government though, along with the majority of this country. I see it as going downhill, and slowly gaining speed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

[Ekental]

@CM... alright... so what about the government do you not like? The policies of the government are driven by the opinons of the people (theoretically, though the "founding fathers" surely didn't want it this way).

As for actions of the US government... I would say that you would have to list specific examples for me, the reasons behind the examples (most important) and why that is so abhorrent to you. Till then I do not believe that any of us have a right to judge actions with so little information on them besides the action itself..

To belabor the point to extinction..
i.e. I shoot a person... the consequences of this action by law vary on the reasons and situation of me shooting the person. Judging soley by action and heresy is the same.

@Magrus:
I do not know your particular grievance with the State Gov. Though I understand that the system in many places is (to me) unfair (with just info on my state gov.). That being said...

It is true there are many people who are generally trusting of the government and ignorant of what really goes on. Many have made this decision conciously, many have not. To blindly follow a government may be folly. However this course of action is synonymous to inderectly trusting all other Americans to make sound judgements.

As for the War on Terror (as it is names X_X) it is somewhat fallacious to support something that a person has had no experience in. However for many of those people they support the war because they believe that in doing so it supports America's core values and beliefs (which have become synonymous with freedom etc. since the 1950s-ish).

As for altered laws and systems for the worse... Keep in mind that all these systems have had the opportunity for the public to have a direct --> indirect say in them (voting for senators, President, etc.). Question what issues in this myriad that you mentioned are you particularly concerned with. Do you mind naming three (just because thats a nice number) and describe the flaws and problems with them? Just having the nebulous concepts out there is not enough.

And you are absolutely correct. No person can have a broad enough view on this country. Senate has a decidedly narrow view as well.. House isn't as bad but that is only a relative term. That is why most state laws/initiatives/resolutions may be voted on by the people in that state. That is why people elect senators/ house reps to speak for what they want for the nation.

I admit voter turnout has been low over the past decades... but it is rising (specially for last election). This doesn't mean everything is rosy however...

BTW who'd you vote for last election?
As for education what's your state policy to meet the "No Child Left Behind Act"? (Just curious)

EDIT: Can a moderator please:
Change this thread title to "Anti-Patriotism (Pertains to US citizens only)" I made an embarassing typo and I do not know how and if I can correct the mistake. ~_~;;;

[RandomThug]

Ehem. Gruntboy... I feel your presence.

22 years of age here. Born in southern california, been here all 22 years.

Proud to be an American. Damn proud.

Can't say I am happy right now with our current situation. This is why we can vote, this is why we have max 8 years. Sure you can say "I voted kerry" but did you convince anyone who supported the war that they might be wrong? We live in consumer culture... my father for instance is a General Contracter, been blue coller his entire 55 years of life. He spends 10 to 12 hours a day busting his ass to get by, he has not the time nor patience to do much more than sit down turn on the news and hope they tell him the truth.

I believe it was eisenhower or churchill who said that (horribly misquoted i cant find it in its original form) "A youth who is not democractic has no heart and an older man who is not a republican has no brain"

I believe that the average joe shopping in walmart IS responsible for the war in Iraq to a degree, we have to accept we elected him. I did not do enough personally to persuade my father to not vote bush, sure I am not a swing state but I also did not donate to kerrys campaign.

I have heard people say "Why didnt the iraqi's just up and turn on saddam wh y do we have to fix this?"

Red state, blue state... Wheres our civil war... We live in a world of ease to use, lazyboy culture. You can not convice the man who spends his entire life busting his ass to provide for his family that his convictions and beliefs are wrong because he is being swindled by the oriellys and hte hannitys and the bush's.

No one wants the truth anymore, they want thier world view backed up irreguardless of the cost.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Sir Winston Churchill

(edit)- I work for a school district and they prefer to call it "No administrator left behind"

[dark_raven]

you may be right to say that none of us are experts, but according to the constitusion, people in congress don't NEED to be experts... so our ideas may seem trivial sence we don't "know" what we are talking about, but the ideas stated on these threads could be great ideas indead.

i don't know if that agrees/disagrees/or is compleatly off of anything said on this thread... but thats what i think.

[Magrus]

@Ekental

Three examples, ok.

1. Refer to my posts here
on education.

2. Health care. Examples why? My neighbor here has a condition that could be solved with surgery, a risky surgery no doubt, but highly expensive. He cannot afford to undertake the surgery so the fact is, he lives his life with the understanding because of this condition he may die at any day without any warning whatsoever. I for the life of me cannot recall the exact terms, but it has to do with some sort of blood clot thing that if it breaks free and rushes to his heart he dies or something along those lines. He's roughly 24 I do believe.

This, isn't an isolated incident. Someone who is in need of some sort of medical assistance isn't possible to get it for reasons concerning funding.

Another, I have some sort of odd occurrance with my neck and jaw. I have TMJ, I'm hoping someone else knows what that is, and some freak thing compounding that which has caused problems with my neck. My doctors can't say exactly whats wrong, but they do believe it will spread from my neck and to my back by the time I'm 25 (3 more years) and likely be unable to such things as lift and carry and bend two years after that. I got two opinions on that, just because, I didn't like hearing that just from one doctor. I get dizzy when I turn my head from the cartalidge and such popping and snapping when I turn it. Surgery would provide a temporary reprieve which would last posssibly 5-10 years, then quickly degrade far faster than it is now. I was sent to a treatment center in the local hospital to make it so it was bearable for me, and therefore I'd be able to work and not have to stay home.

The basic wording I got at the end of my visit, I was completely enraged so my memory isn't so go was this. "We can't help you, our system won't allow you entrance." I asked, "Can you at least recommend someone who can, or give me information on what to do myself?" and the doctor replied "We could, but like I said, we can't help you, hope you feel better and I'm sorry."

I went to a Pain Clinic for chronic pain. The reasons they couldn't help me was that "it wasn't bad enough yet." Not that they didn't have answers, or solutions, but that the problem wasn't severe enough yet. I'm sorry, is not the reason doctors exist to cure a problem when found? THEY found a solution but refused treatment when my other doctors all referred them as my last option. No, nothing wrong with the system at all there.

Another thing, mental health care. I was locked up after not sleeping for two months straight. Not one of the doctors listened to me, or my family in the simple and cut and dry case, I had not slept for two months straight. I was delusional, hallucinating, and completely off the wall with too much energy. I went into the hospital with three people besides myself saying that was the reason why I was there and I needed to get help with sleeping. They sent me to the psych department. They labeled me schitzophrenic and drugged me as such, ignored what was on my file and what I and my parents said. It ruined my metabolism, memory, thinking process and the head doctor never once backed down on that. I later saw the head doctor for mood disorders in my area and he was shocked and appalled at what the first doctor had done to me, the doctor got transferred for what he did. Not his license removed and fired, just moved to another area.

While I was there, a girl was raped and came in with sever Post- Traumatic Stress problems. She was freaking out, I asked her what was wrong, she said she kept having flashbacks of her being raped, the doctors were calling her psychotic, and guess what, schitzophrenic. I went off on the doctor, same doctor I had and explained to him he's a moron and she needs therapy. He doubled my dosages on the meds he was forcing on me and kept her away from me after that. The resident there under him, quite loudly protested both decisions and said I most definately had a point, the head doctor informed him he was in charge and if the younger resident wished to keep his job he'd follow his decisions.

Another time, a different girl was catatonic after being raped, the other patients helped her eat as the nurses wouldn't. The doctors forbade them to do so as it "prolonged her situation". They ended up having to feed her through IV's, she was completely unresponsive whatsover and had to be carried from room to room. I was watching TV when another patient started groping this girl and she started SCREAMING, no nurses did anything so I went after him. I got in trouble for being aggressive with witnesses attesting to this man reaching into the girls pants and they ignored us, and carried the girl off to her bed, still screaming mind you, and drugged to her to knock her out.

I'm sure there are tons of others, but those are things direct from my life, not the news and I prefer using such things when they're available.

3. Taxes, the bottom line for presidential elections. Where does our money go once it is taken from our paychecks and can we see the reciepts? I'd have to say, the systems broken. The rich complain that they have to pay more than the poor. I'm sorry, but, DUH, it's a percentage based system. If you make 10 times the amount I do, your going to pay 10 times the amount I do. Why? If we agree on 15% for everyone, then everyone takes a hit of 15% of their income, agreeing on something reasonable for you would be outrageous for me, and something reasonable for me would be like tipping a waiter to you. Seeing the testimony of one rich lady babbling about the injustice of it all that why should she have to pay more than everyone else when other people are too stupid to make as much money as her husband does and she shouldn't be punished for it, just drove me insane with frustration. What kind of closed minded people do I live by? I mean really.

Taxes are used for who knows what really, yes, military, health care, transportation, etc etc. What else? How is it used in each category. Is it used efficiently and wisely? How often is it that taxes are raised just so a group of people can increase their salary, and maybe research a new fighter jet to "keep the country safe"?


As for voting. I got into a debate today about that since I renewed my ID this morning and filled in the little box at the bottom of the page to vote. Never done that before. First off, if I wanted to vote, I'd have to walk to the place to vote at. I don't drive and this area just doesn't do well with voting. Everyone cares, but the people set up to vote for have nothing in common with the majority of the people. Another thing, I live in NY. NYC declares what NY votes in a statewide vote. If everyone in NYC voted one way, and the rest of the state voted the other way, we'd end up with what NYC wanted. People here don't bother voting except on local issues for the most part anymore. It's become a waste of time.

I didn't vote. I am against voting to put someone into power that I think will be bad for the government. Hence, I didn't vote. I liked, nor approved of any of the candidates. The BS I've been handed "well, anyones better than Bush" or "you can't complain unless you've voted", is just that. Oh yes I can. Until someone with a brain and the good of the country and its people at heart is pushed before the masses and I say with all honesty "I LIKE that person, I WANT that man/woman to run this country." I won't vote on who's to be president. I won't select a lesser evil because it's the best we ended up with for choices. That's asinine and idiotic. Our country, became the laughing stock of the world when Bush was voted back in. The man can't speak right! Why didn't I vote for Kerry, he was the Anti-Bush. Plain and simple. Thrust someone up that appeals to Bush haters, thats all. I won't vote for someone put out there because he's "the next best thing". It dishonors the system's true purpose.

Let the people nominate someone, blow off all this campaigning and wasteful spending. Make it free advertising on TV and the newspaper and such to allow average Americans to be elected by those who know them, and end all of these rich people being voted into office for the sole fact, they're the best of the people wealthy enough to afford to promote themselves to the country. I'm sure there are people MUCH better qualified to do so out there struggling to make ends meet for their family that can't be bothered or afford to run for offices. Let's find them and use them.

I've never heard of that act on education, I've become so disgusted with education from hearing my family members involved with it speaking of it I tune it out for the most part.

Unfortunately, I'm assuming a majority of the population have been doing so for quite some time. They aren't happy, but why rock the boat right? At least everyones getting by. I don't believe it's going to end up that the necessary changes will take place short of a catastrophe happening here to make the people rise up and demand action and a complete restructuring of the government and the system's it runs. It's just too much work and causes too much instability for a time when "everything's ok" for most people to consider such a thing.

Decent enough explinations?

[Tower_Master]

Great thread, E!

I'll post a longer answer later, but a brief summing up of my oppinions:
I sincerely dissaprove of the actions of the current National administration, and I think there's ALOT about our country that REALLY needs to get set straight, but I'd still say that I'm patriotic to the original conception of our nation. I definately believe that America has ALOT of good things about it - like the people. Politicians are a FAR CRY from representing us honestly, and I think that there are DEFINATELY still good people in this country, and THOSE are the people who make up this nation. That's the USA I'm patriotic to.

[Ekental]

@Raven...
Im not sure I understand what you just said.. I never said that this forum has no good ideas. Politicians are not experts at everything collectively either. They're supposed to respond to public demand, each from his/her district (for senators and reps anyways)

@TW
But really... how much do we know about our politicians that supposedly represent us? I strive to learn what my Senator and Governor stands for at least but I find that there are so many factors that go into a decision that have an overall good interest at heart but for the short term is a "bad decision". What are the newest policies? What are the newest bills?initiatives? How many of us actually know whats happening? What right do we have to judge what we do not know about? (Back to the original theme >_<)

@Magrus
I've read your education views and I have to say that I find them interesting. Though biased (ofc >_<).
I'll start with that and work my way down.

Soooos Education as it relates to you:
Going off what you told me you sound like someone who others would call a "genius". You have had countless evaluations and scores that suggest that you are much smarter than the average person.

Your troubles are ofc with the Education system in the US. However as Fable mentioned the "System" (I will cap it for future reference) is not intended to fit every individual. The majority of people are not at your level of intelligence. The System is designed to teach kids who are labeled as "average". Kids and teenagers who have to struggle to get an "A" and who do not have the responsbility to go through that struggle.

To relate this to my schooling... I did not have the testing that you did. However I was labeled as "geek" from elementary school all the way to now. (12th grade) I breezed through my classes... and I managed the same in the advanced classes. I would skip some courses because I was deemed to posses enough knowledge to warrant it. I was disruptive, corrected the teachers, and flaunted the fact that I could easily get an "A" without trying.

I knew people who didn't fit... who were brilliant at a field (or all fields) but were not understood. I partially understand though that this was because the System simply was not for them. They needed an entirely different education tailored for them... but as a small minority the price would be too high. They didn't have the money to afford it either.

Ofc the subject of teacher abuse is unnaceptable... no argument there.
Still though, from your posts I can see (from what I read) that throughout your education you were shunned and loathed by the majority of your class. Despite your good nature I wonder if people thought of you as "an arrogant prick", since thats how people thought of me when I did some of the things you did (and many still think of me that way XD). Knowing that you are smart... knowing that you so easily achieve what other people struggle to achieve and cannot (even if they gave it 100%), and then seeing you flaunt it by showing beyond a doubt that you can basically skip class altogether and still outdo them... Isn't that a reason for loathing?

You said yourself that you were disruptive, read the book upside down to go at everyone else's level, corrected the teachers mistakes. No one likes to be told that they're wrong (Especially in front of 20-30 people... especially when their image requires that they seem to know everything). No one likes to feel stupid. No one likes to know how easily they fail while another suceeds.

You could have quietly gone to the teacher after class and asked them about what you thought was wrong. You could have devoted your brilliant mind to unobtrusively studying other subjects or reading ahead when you had finished with the work for the day. Tact might have gone a long way to change the way people felt about you. But that shouldn't matter... since it's the way you feel about yourself that counts. You found people who were in the same situation you were in... and you rightly stuck with them.

I don't want to start a flame war... I just want to point out with 20/20 hindsight that there were ways to earn respect from the "average" people by doing things differently.

The education system simply isnt for everyone. It is unfortunate but what would society have to sacrifice to make it so? The price would be exhorbitant.
The US Government strives to fit the needs and wants of the most people possible. Whether it be education or war. The minorities have been granted more power in order to make sure that they are not left out... however most of the time they must seek help privately because the cost of all-round inclusion would be to high.

This post is rambling... I need more time to respond to the other parts of the post. I am sorry.

[jopperm2]

I honestly don't know if I want to completely get into all of this because these discussions tend to consume me. I think the system works very well.

I don't think people can be trusted to direct govern themselves. Athenian democracy didn't work very well at all. People off the street simply cannot responsibly govern themselves. There would be enough pork barreling to make Tom Daschle blush. We cannot have average Joe people governing all over the place because they aren't smart enough or responsible enough(I know this is almost laughable considering how irresponsible many politicians are, including some I may have voted for) to make descisions for the country.

I'll give an example. When I was in college I took a class called American National Government. During that class there was a discussion about social spending. One woman in the class, a student, about age 30.. She was complaining that if she were in office she would make it mandatory for states to provide child-care and health care for everyone. I had to explain to her that while these might be nice programs someone has to pay for them. I was single male with no children, no health problems. I worked 48 hours per week and went to school full-time. I needed every penny I made to pay for what I needed. I hadn't been to the doctor in probably four or five years. So I told her flat out that I refuse to pay even one cent for her because she can't keep her legs closed.

People need to be responsible for their actions. I may have said this before, there are two types of people I can't stand, those that want a handout, and those that want to save the world. (And before fable calls me out, I am sloganeering now. This is an opinion thread though so I don't care. I'm worked up. )

I'm not sure if I want to add too much more to this without installing more heat sinks in my computer, but I did want to say something about the electoral college. It was mentioned that it should be abolished, but I have to disagree. It was established because the founding fathers did not think the populace was educated enough to be completely trusted with elections. I do think the populace is better able to make those decisions due to communication technology available today, but I think that same technology may see the electoral college playing a bigger role in the future. In todays world of media coverage and photo ops, a pretty face and a strong voice can go as far as a good budget plan and solid voting record. That trend, if it continues to get worse, could be a serious problem. Remember that Hitler's best political asset was he speaking ability. I think that educated electors need to be in place as a safeguard.

[Chanak]

Response:

I, for one, support veterans. This is chiefly because I am one myself. I responded to Dottie in another thread explaining why I do - it has nothing to do with any sort of war or military action being *right*, just, or whatever. I was 20 years old in 1990 when Desert Storm was rolling, and an E-4/ Specialist in communications in the U.S. Army. When I enlisted in the Army in March of 1989, I took an oath to defend, amongst other things, the U.S. Constitution. Even after I was honorably discharged at the end of my term of service in 1993, I decided to keep that oath.

Two Presidents were my boss - George H. Bush and Bill Clinton. I didn't like either one, but professionally speaking that didn't matter. As a soldier my ultimate commander was the U.S. President, and so I had to condition myself, like every other soldier, to push my personal opinions out of the way and serve as was expected of me. Even so, I was free to vote at the voting booth as I wished to when elections rolled around. And as I explained in another thread, I was empowered to refuse to obey any order given to me that was unlawful, whether it was from my immediate supervisor, or the President himself. Those were the two freedoms I possessed.

As a civilian, it took some time for the military conditioning to wear off. The President was no longer my boss, I was supposed to be *his*. Therefore, it's my right to praise or criticize not only him, but any official in every level of government. As Americans, we are supposed to be able to do this without fear of retaliation or the infringement of our rights, but as we have seen in the past 5 years, this is being cast aside in a populist wave of nationalism.

I thought CM's post above was a good one. His criticisms, like most from other non-Americans (and even Americans) in SYM are levelled at the federal government of the U.S. I find it appalling that the federal government has largely succeeded in welding itself to the image of America not only abroad, but in our own country as well. America is not the federal government - America is the people. The Constitution I swore to defend spells that out very clearly, so that there is no mistaking where the true power was intended to lie in the union of the states, and in the states themselves. With the people.

What you are seeing is not a wave of "anti-patriotism." In my opinion, what you are seeing is a global backlash against nationalism.

[jopperm2]

We don't agree on a lot, but I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said Chan. There is a great deal of separation of powers that is being ignored these days and it angers me greatly..

[Chanak]

@Jopp, we probably agree on many things. Since I began working for a state agency here in Texas, I've had the opportunity to gain some inside knowledge on budgets, funding, how it's supposed to work and what actually happens, etc (I work directly for an offical appointed by the governor). What I saw opened my eyes pretty wide and it was at that point I decided I should scrutinize things I believed in and took for granted for many years. What I have been learning has been leaving me with the impression that the federal government is a monster that is growing unchecked, and that the political parties just fight over who gets to feed it where. The losers in this are the American people.

[jopperm2]

We may agree on more than I thought.. Political idealism may be the downfall of our great nation and I think that's really the point you made best. There is no one party that has all the answers, and politicians do their job very well, even the dreaded Mr. Bush. They do what they think is best for their constituents. The constituents, unfortunately don't always agree.

[Ekental]

Its not just about the war, though that is a hot button issue for the government. I am mostly concerned about the immediate negative connotation that is associated with America when mentioned on many forums and threads by people of ages 30 or younger.
Problems abound... but constant whining and putting your own country down does nothing to help the problem...

Sorry I can't post more i'll get to it laterz

[Magrus]

@Ekental, with the education thing, I DID converse with my teachers privately on numerous occasions in different grades in order to work out something different and seperate for myself because of my issues with it. I was shot down repeatedly. I couldn't be allowed to read ahead as that would put me in a different section from the rest of the class. When called on to read aloud, I would be pages and pages ahead of everyone else, so I was forced to keep pace with everyone else. Some of the people and teachers appreciated me, because so long as I was treated with due respect I would help out when needed. I do believe the fact that I tutored the slower kids in my classes on quite a few occasions makes a point of that. I had no problem going out of my way to assist others.

However, I took no crap from anyone, student, teacher, principal, whatever. I just don't appreciate being disrepected and this gave me trouble. I've a nasty habit of going after someone verbally once they've started in on me and it doesn't do well with most teens to be ridiculed until they cry by their peers when they start the whole situation. I've made adults break down after making snide remarks about me and teenagers are far easier to deal with than grown-ups in that aspect. I kept to myself and wanted to do my own thing, should I have been allowed to, I would of been happy and my teachers would of had nothing to worry about. Instead, a good number of my teachers and I clashed for the simple reason that I learned better in a manner that they didn't teach with, so I started on my own and progressed faster than the class. If they had simply let me be, there wouldn't have been any interruptions, but they went off on me for not doing as I was told and disrupted class themselves. I simply worked quietly until someone else started arguing with me. IMHO opinion, if I was teaching, and a student went above and beyond, on his or her own, that person should be rewarded in some manner. I should of just been left to my own businesses. I was getting A's, quiet and respectful to those around me. I wasn't, so when someone went after me, I didn't keep my mouth shut. THAT was my problem. My sarcasm and foul mouth.

Dealing with everyones crap for years, I simply decided I'd do whatever was best for me and my education and I simply didn't care anymore about what anyone thought. No one listened, or supported, or worked with me anymore so I did things on my own. When I ended up with an incompetant teacher, I corrected the person and the class. Why should everyone learn in a manner that's wrong when it can be corrected? Beyond that, why does said teacher have a job if they repeatedly get the material wrong and therefore ruin the class for the students. I made it a point to go to administrators with complaints before calling the teacher down in class, but such things as tenure and lack of decent teachers prevented them from fixing the problem. I did it on my own. The students didn't like me, but at least they got an education worthy of calling it one.

There were groups of students and teachers who discussed seperating the student body to reduce frustration and problems. The principal shot it down as it made more work. The only added cost to it all would have been the hours spent for people to reorganize everything in the beginning of the next year. There are programs for people who are unable to grasp the material, to give them extra help and assist them to pass and graduate. This, to me, is good. Why not something of the same for other students who simply breeze through everything handed to them? It creates resentments in the classroom to see someone who consistantly get 100% on everything and finish their work in far less time than the rest of the class. That essentially dooms the smarter children to being tormented just the same as those with learning disabilities.

I have relatives who teach that have agreed with me for years, but they've enough to do dealing with the kids who could care less about school causing trouble for everyone else. I suggested having them do manual labor instead. Why not? They get out of school, with a job, and out of everyones hair and be done with it.

[Chanak]

Its not just about the war, though that is a hot button issue for the government. I am mostly concerned about the immediate negative connotation that is associated with America when mentioned on many forums and threads by people of ages 30 or younger.
Problems abound...

Have you ever stopped to think that any sort of negative connotation you perceive out there might be earned?

but constant whining and putting your own country down does nothing to help the problem...

What are people whining about? Be more specific.

[fable]

I didn't vote. I am against voting to put someone into power that I think will be bad for the government. Hence, I didn't vote. I liked, nor approved of any of the candidates. The BS I've been handed "well, anyones better than Bush" or "you can't complain unless you've voted", is just that. Oh yes I can. Until someone with a brain and the good of the country and its people at heart is pushed before the masses and I say with all honesty "I LIKE that person, I WANT that man/woman to run this country." I won't vote on who's to be president. I won't select a lesser evil because it's the best we ended up with for choices. That's asinine and idiotic. Our country, became the laughing stock of the world when Bush was voted back in. The man can't speak right! Why didn't I vote for Kerry, he was the Anti-Bush. Plain and simple. Thrust someone up that appeals to Bush haters, thats all. I won't vote for someone put out there because he's "the next best thing". It dishonors the system's true purpose.

Good for you. I've caught serious flack here over the years from a few posters who believe if you don't vote, you shouldn't express an opinion--which, frankly, I find among the most idiotic statements I've ever heard, and well worth having been spoken in the past by my mother (which it has). The idea of a contest to elect the most popular person who has spent the most money for any political office is in itself remarkable enough; the idea that roughly half the people who vote should be able to tell the other half and all those who don't like any candidate exactly who will have power over their daily lives is one of the greatest jokes ever perpetrated by "democracy," in my opinion.

[Ekental]

@Chanak...
Certainly the war catalyzed the self-discrimination but it was happening long before that. People would talk about how messed up education, economy, and social security was. The "War on Terror" is simply a great excuse for all these complaints to come to head.

@Fable (And supporters of the same ideal)
Looking at the amount of money spent etc... I thought Howard Dean had that one nailed down for the Primaries. However Kerry managed to pull out victory (basically from the back of the race).

As for voting for the lesser evil etc. Looking back through history there have been plenting of minority parties that have been created JUST to oppose the majority party. (I'll get to examples if requested) They're purpose was to check the power of the majority so they didn't do something catastrophically stupid.

If you want a Utopian society where the core American ideals are upheld 24/7 and voting is made by intelligent people who have given some thought into each candidate's ideals its not going to happen. The world just isnt like that.

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with abstaining from voting. It's just that since you can't count on everyone to be responsible voters... you have to go with a little change at a time till you get what you want.
America isn't about momentous changes for the better... its about moderation after moderation until the goal is reached. (Which leaves everyone frustrated an unhappy)

@Magrus
Yeah... though you were in middle school. Refusing to take crap from anyone made you the rock in the middle of the roaring stream. When you have demonstrated your superiority over the entire class (and teacher maybe) every day... and then you proceed to psychologically break a student down. That doesn't help what people think about you.

As for your old teachers... Well Im sorry. I find my teachers to be in general understanding (Though there are some that deserve a kick in the face) and willing to work with students who believe they need to adjust the way they learn etc.

Though keep in mind so far you give off (at least to me) a both brave and headstrong personality. So I'm thinking that in many cases you sought frank and to the point discussions with your teachers about how you needed to learn. That may not have been the best way to approach them? (I dont know since I don't know you and your teachers)

Gah I'll get to your other subjects too... I keep running out of time X_X

@Jopperm
Your thoughts are peerless... however There are no breaks and I almost went crosseyed trying to read your post. Break it up plz?