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Will the Anglican circle remain unbroken? (no spam)

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fable
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Will the Anglican circle remain unbroken? (no spam)

Post by fable »

In 2003, the US communion of the Anglican Church backed the appointment of an openly gay priest, Gene Robinson, as bishop in New Hampshire. Since that time, the Anglicans have been fiercely split over the matter. The more conservative parts of the Church, mostly in Africa and South America, have threatened to split off if the decision was allowed to stand by the primates. This also applies to small splinter groups in the US; while in the UK, the split has widened divisions in a church that isn't so much moderate as previously willing to tolerate a breadth of religious stance, from extremely liberal to extremely conservative.

The Anglicans have tried to put the issue aside in the hopes that time alone would heal matters--what I've heard Anglican friends refer to jokingly as "Anglican fudge." ;) But that hasn't worked here, and now the Anglican Communion of Primates have issued a communique as follows:L

"We request that the Episcopal Church (US) and the Anglican Church of Canada voluntarily withdraw their members from the Anglican Consultative Council (ACC)."

If this is accepted, the US and Canadian branches of the Anglicans would no longer be full members of the communion. It is an act of disciplining, and seen rightly, I think, as a victory for the conservatives among the Anglican Church in claiming to define it. And it could mark the beginning of a complete split between the two groups.

I have to give the Anglicans credit, whatever the jokes about fudging, for having honestly tried to make sense of issues that other churches simply paper over with dogma set by people living in the MidEast 1800 year ago. They've openly accepted women as ministers, taking the loss of arch-conservative ones who have gone to the RCC. But this is a far more serious division. What's your reaction to the communique? And what steps if any do you think could heal over the rift within the Anglican Church?
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Post by Macleod1701 »

I've heard about this on the news but only know briefly what is going on, can some body explain to me in very simple terms whats going on, as seeing as I don't beleive in god and don't have a religion, (except worshipping myself and cats) my knowledge is mostly based around rude jokes.
So any enlightenment would be appreciated.
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Post by fable »

What would you like to know? I'm willing to offer information, but I don't want to treat you like someone who knows nothing. :) The Anglican Church was the one formed in opposition to the RCC in England, during the years of the early Tudors. It's a sort of halfway house between Catholicism and Protestantism. Henry VIII decided to make it *the* national church when the RCC refused to grant him a divorce. Leaving aside all the political aspects of the Church in earlier ages, of late it's become known for being about as close to Roman Catholicism as you can get while remaining relatively "democratic." Each nation with a large Anglican population chooses its own primate. They follow transubstatiation (you know--wafer and wine, body and blood of Christ) thing, and their service is not dissimilar to the RCC in many respects, but it's entirely in the native language of the local country. Each diocese has considerable interaction with its hierarchy. Politically, it's been left-of-center and socially active. One of its high ranking members was extremely important in securing the release of American hostages held in Iran back in the late 1970s and early 80s, and was himself held as a hostage for a couple of years.

Does that help? And does anybody want to add anything else?
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Post by Macleod1701 »

Yeah that does help thanks, and don't worry about making it simple, when it comes to religion the simpler the better. So what is the reason behind and consequence of whats going on at the moment cause from what I gathered it was mostly about whether or not to allow gay priests?! And if that's so why are they splitting?
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Post by FweL »

If you ask me allow there be gay priest's.
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Post by Macleod1701 »

Fewl if you're going to contribute please make it relevant, I wasn't asking if they should be allowed or not.
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Post by fable »

The Anglicans have allowed gay priests for some time. The problem is that Gene Robinson, an openly gay priest, was chosen as Anglican bishop for New Hampshire. I suppose the Anglican conservatives were willing to swallow the sexual orientation issue at the grassroots level, ignoring it. But at the level of bishop, some members of the hierarchy are extremely put out. They say the Bible insists homosexuality is wrong, and some of the African bishops (in nations where Anglican Christianity is the dominant version of the religion) have literally threatened to take their Churches outside the communion if Robinson wasn't removed.
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Post by FweL »

And there is also thing in bible where Jesus says that bad and good people will be together untill world ends. Then bad people will end up in hell and good people will go to heaven. Atleast it went like that, not sure about translation though.

Then i would like to remind that both parts of bible were written by human. Then as you know if someone tells something to other person, that other person will change little bit of what original person told and it took quite long before there were books.
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Post by fable »

FweL, I suspect this is one of those matters where many people who follow the Bible insist upon their interpretation of it as the Official Version, and also insist (as many Christians do, and always have) that it is directly inspired by god. So much can be read one way or the other into any book of this sort, that it easily provides fuel for controversy. If you or I were to say, "The Bible was edited, censored, altered, and compiled over several thousand years," the answer would be, "Yes, and all of those decisions, even the unethical ones, were inspired by God to produce the finished work we now have."

Faced with this logical loop, I have no reply. But what should be done when you have a Church split down the middle, with good will but diametrically opposed views on either side?
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Post by FweL »

[QUOTE=fable]Faced with this logical loop, I have no reply. But what should be done when you have a Church split down the middle, with good will but diametrically opposed views on either side?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say that it is bad thing. It has happened quite many times now.
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Post by Georgi »

[QUOTE=fable]I suppose the Anglican conservatives were willing to swallow the sexual orientation issue at the grassroots level, ignoring it. But at the level of bishop, some members of the hierarchy are extremely put out. They say the Bible insists homosexuality is wrong, and some of the African bishops (in nations where Anglican Christianity is the dominant version of the religion) have literally threatened to take their Churches outside the communion if Robinson wasn't removed.[/QUOTE]

I find this slightly befuddling. I mean, I can understand if they said they didn't want homosexual people in the clergy, full stop, because the Bible says it is wrong. (Note - I'm not saying I agree with that, before anyone accuses me.) But to put up with it at one level in the clergy, but not at a higher level seems incredibly hypocritical to me. Surely if there is enough support for a gay man to be a member of the clergy, it shouldn't make any difference at what level. What are they saying, "It's ok if your local priest is gay, but not the bishop?" What kind of logic is that? And now you will point out that religion isn't logical... which is fair comment. ;)

Another strange thing is that the Church in the UK appointed a gay bishop a while ago, but he felt he had to step down. Now they have such a problem because the US Church did the same thing? :confused:
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Post by fable »

The gay UK bishop (good catch) stepped down on his own, but the US bishop hasn't. As for the primates in general accepting gay ministers but not gay bishops--I think it's less a matter of hypocrisy than moderate compromise, which the Anglicans historically have tried to use on all occasions. We all make compromises with our strongly held views in various ways. You may believe strongly in a certain policy at work, but have to give way on it for the good of the team, or to gather your influence for other battles. Without meaning to sound like an Anglican apologist (which is pretty funny, when you think of it), I suspect something like that is at work, here. Unlike many Churches (such as the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and Jews) that have split into separate Churches when they disagreed upon important issues, the Anglicans try to calm things down and hold everything together.
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Post by jopperm2 »

I'm not particularly sure about whether or not there will be a split, but what I don't understand is this. Assuming the bible condemns homosexuality as they are claiming(I personally don't think this is the case, nor do I think the bible is authoritative or completely inspired by the divine, though I technically claim Christianity), then wouldn't only the act of sex be condemnable? The church claims that all sins are evil and therefore daydreaming about sex with a boy is as bad as sex with a girl. That leads me to believe that none of the people that are gay priests actually have committed the "sin" of homosexuality. Now, I don't know too much of these people, but I don't think any of them are sexually active. Anyway. That's my guess and take on things.
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Post by giles337 »

Personally, I can't see the Anglican Church not splitting over this, however long it take. There will always be enough bleeding hearts, preaching their missionary conception of things, down from their crucifix. There are chrisitans, and then there are christians. By which I mean those christians who are tolerant, and semi-"religious" and those who use "religion" as an excuse for their intolerance. And unfortunately, while this is the situation, it is, IMHO at least, immosible for the Anglican church to stay as one.
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Post by Georgi »

fable wrote:The gay UK bishop (good catch) stepped down on his own, but the US bishop hasn't.
Yes, and that was sort of my point - the Church didn't have a problem with appointing him, but he felt pressured to step down - if he had wanted to stay, then one presumes the Church, having appointed him, would have supported him. Yet they still complain about the ordination of a gay bishop in the US.
As for the primates in general accepting gay ministers but not gay bishops--I think it's less a matter of hypocrisy than moderate compromise, which the Anglicans historically have tried to use on all occasions. We all make compromises with our strongly held views in various ways. You may believe strongly in a certain policy at work, but have to give way on it for the good of the team, or to gather your influence for other battles. Without meaning to sound like an Anglican apologist (which is pretty funny, when you think of it), I suspect something like that is at work, here. Unlike many Churches (such as the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and Jews) that have split into separate Churches when they disagreed upon important issues, the Anglicans try to calm things down and hold everything together.
I suppose the problem I have with it really is that since the Bible is supposed to be the word of God etc etc, why they can't agree over whether or not it's ok to be gay.
jopperm2 wrote:That leads me to believe that none of the people that are gay priests actually have committed the "sin" of homosexuality. Now, I don't know too much of these people, but I don't think any of them are sexually active. Anyway. That's my guess and take on things.
This angle is interesting too. I note Gene Robinson is always described as the first "openly gay" bishop. One wonders how many there are (if not bishops, at least clergymen) who are gay, but are scared to come out because it would damage their prospects. As you say, it really has little relevance, because they would be celibate anyway, so surely gay clergy should be celebrated for being honest about it, rather than penalised for telling the truth when they could probably get away with not admitting to being gay.
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Post by Bloodstalker »

I personally don't see a split as that big a deal. Many denominations that seem like they've been around forever now are really only the result of a group of members of one church or another deciding that the established church doesn't really represent their beliefs anymore and either breaking away on their own, or being forced to break away.

Religion has always been a weird animal anyway. While any denomination may claim that what they believe and follow is the "right way", at the same time, every denomination is molded by the collective veiwpoints and comprimises f the membership. Regardless of what anyone says, the views of any of those denominations are just as much shaped by the collective interpretations of the people involved as they are by any rules set in stone by an all knowing diety.

I also don't see any way to heal such wounds, and don't really think it nessacary to heal them anyway. A church is at it's simplest level a community of people who share a similar belief as it pertains to God and how you worship God. As a result, the church is basically a reflection of what it's members believe. The doctrines it sets forth are determined by the people as much as they are by a ruling heirarchy.

In the instance like this one, when the issue is such a devisive and major sticking point for one side or the other, it doesn't leave room for diplomacy. If a group of members does not feel that the church represents their beliefs anymore, or think that it has somehow comprimised the proper path, it will break off and form it's own sepreate entity. Religion isn't compulsary, it's entered into on a voluntary basis. In that light, I don't see any need to try and dictate change to members simply for the sake of tolerance or progress. No one is actually forcing them to stay, or forcing them to leave. The dicision is being made based on personal choice and beliefs.

The church has a right to change it's belief structure, and those who don't wish to follow along have the right to abandon an organization they probably feel has betrayed what they think the church should stand for. The more progressive minded will go one way, the more fundamentalist will go another, and eventually, the more fundamentalist group will at some point likely split over some other disagreement after it's grown to the point that more open minds have found their way into it over the years.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I seriously distrust organized religion on the whole. From most of my experience with it, it's taken what was basially a good idea (love thy neighbor) and added to it, warped it, and transformed it into what is for all practical purposes nothing more than a money making corporation where you have to send money to someone to get them to pray for you while at all times avoiding any contact with "sinners". While I still consider myself of the Christian faith, I see little in the standard big denominations that makes me feel that it in any way represents what I get from reading on my own.


@Georgi...I see the discrepency of allowing gay ministers on one level but not the higher as sort of like the straw that broke the camels back. It's a very hard thing to leave a church after a long period of time when you have been convinced it's the right way to go. While you may look over certain things, such as gay ministers on a local level, and brush it off as "I don't go to that particular church anyway, so it doesn't affect me", it's a very different situation when someone of the same persuasion get's put in a position that will spread their influence beyond one local assembly and will be able to impact a much broader scale of the church.
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Post by fable »

[QUOTE=Bloodstalker]I personally don't see a split as that big a deal. Many denominations that seem like they've been around forever now are really only the result of a group of members of one church or another deciding that the established church doesn't really represent their beliefs anymore and either breaking away on their own, or being forced to break away.[/quote]

Very true. The Lutherans, after all, were at first a split-away faction of the RCC. The Southern Baptists are simply the larger (about a 70/30 split) and far more consevative of two Southern Baptists factions that existed in the US before the 1980s. And so it goes.

I also don't see any way to heal such wounds, and don't really think it nessacary to heal them anyway. A church is at it's simplest level a community of people who share a similar belief as it pertains to God and how you worship God. As a result, the church is basically a reflection of what it's members believe. The doctrines it sets forth are determined by the people as much as they are by a ruling heirarchy.

But some churches are considerably more hierarchal and led from the top down than others. The Anglicans and the Eastern Orthodox tend to be more flexible and involving of laypeople. By contrast, the RCC leaves dogma, Church policy, etc, to the highest of higher ups, using laypeople to help raise funds. Do you really think the RCC would lose a lot of people if the Church reversed its policies on, say, contraceptives, or made confession voluntary? The problem for the Anglicans on this issue may not be that it is religious at all--but that it is cultural in nature, which in our eminently secular modern societies, strikes closer to heart for most of us.
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Post by Bloodstalker »

[QUOTE=fable]

But some churches are considerably more hierarchal and led from the top down than others. The Anglicans and the Eastern Orthodox tend to be more flexible and involving of laypeople. By contrast, the RCC leaves dogma, Church policy, etc, to the highest of higher ups, using laypeople to help raise funds. Do you really think the RCC would lose a lot of people if the Church reversed its policies on, say, contraceptives, or made confession voluntary? The problem for the Anglicans on this issue may not be that it is religious at all--but that it is cultural in nature, which in our eminently secular modern societies, strikes closer to heart for most of us.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't be at all surpised, depending on how radical a change was instituted, and how fervently some members oppsoed certain changes. If the RCC decided to change it's stance on something that struck a chord with a lot of it's members, I would expect said members to leave. Regardless of how much control over the organization the administration has, it still boils down to the fact that people will only remain a part of any religious group so long as it doesn't stray into territory that they believe fundamentally to be unacceptable. When the congregation feels that the higher ups have taken things in a direction that drastically alters their doctrine in a direction that they feel violates the basic principles of the faith, they will leave.

While I agree that the issue may very well be cultural in regards to the Angelican church, that's not to say it doesn't stike a similarly disturbing chord on a basic religious level with a lot of people. The fact stands, that while the cultural climate may bring the issue into light currently, many people believe homosexuality is wrong. Not just in the moral sense, but in the strict God has forbidden such behaviour sense. Regardless of my views on the subject, which lean more towards let people do their own thing, a lot of people will view the acceptance of homosexuality as turning away from the truth of the bible. While they may be able to overlook such a thing at the local level, when it comes to appointing people into positions that have the power to influence the congregation over a large area and not simply in a far off corner they will likely never encounter anyway. Homosexuality is for many Christians a very important religious issue as well as a cultural one. Living in the area I do, I'd say homosexuality ranks up among the top 3 or 4 on the list of church boogymen, right along with Athiests, Democrats, and Witchcraft (no offense to you over your religion ;) ) The fact is, at least in my experience, whenever any of those words are mentioned around Christians, they start getting that wild eyed look in their eyes like their children are about to be devoured.

I'm not sure if I'm stating myself that clearly. It's been a long day. I just am trying to say that the issue has significant cultural and religious elements depending on which group of christians you ask. Some won't think it's a big deal, some have a rather hardline stance on it.
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Post by Chanak »

fable, you have lured me into thinking about something that I haven't paid any attention to for several years now - christianity. ;)

To cover some basic ground first, since I've seen this raised in a post or two in this thread: celibate clergy - in fact, the whole concept of "clergy" in the first place - didn't really appear on the scene in christianty until after the council called by Constantine in the 4th century. This probably represented the real birth of the Roman church (my term for the RCC) as it was recognized and protected by secular government. I've combed through the christian bible (yes, even the Vulgate) in the past looking for "scriptural support" for the concept of celibate servants of a church and failed to find any. The only words even remotely associated to this were Paul's words which maintained that (I paraphrase) "it would be best if everyone could be like us (Paul and the entourage he traveled with), but not everyone can. Therefore, it is best for such a person that they marry, and in so doing avoid sinning and risking the destruction of their soul. Still, it would be better if they could be like me, denying my flesh daily."

The majority of the apostles and their immediate successors were married, as was the custom of the day (which stemmed from the Judaic background, where the priests and levites were certainly always married, since the priesthood was an inherited line, supposedly descending from Aaron).

The words of Christ about sin were actually very harsh, and supposedly part of what maddened the sect of Pharisees and patrician priests because his teachings made them out to be "sinners" and the children of the devil (not my words, just what I read). According to what you read, Christ taught that lusting after another man's wife in your thoughts was breaking the Law. Envying your neighbor of his possessions, and desiring them, was breaking the Law. You didn't have to lift a finger to steal a thing...or have an affair. You were already a sinner in the eyes of God, who alone knows the secrets of your heart.

Before anyone thinks they can flame me over the above, that was simply the result of my reading over the christian bible as a person who was not raised going to a church. I picked it up out of curiosity and began reading it. I wanted to find out for myself what all the hooplah was about. I found out, and didn't like it. ;)
But some churches are considerably more hierarchal and led from the top down than others...


Actually, all of the large, internationally known and present ones are just that, including the Anglicans and Episcopalians. They are no exception. They take their bishops very, very seriously. Ministers are a different consideration altogether to the Anglicans and their relations. There's more historical and scriptural latitude to being a minister as opposed to what there is to being a blameless, upstanding, widely respected bishop (the scriptures only require that a minister be well-learned and willing to devote all of his time to assisting the bishops, such as Stephen in Acts; Paul, however, writes out to the letter the requirements of a bishop). This they hold more in common with the Eastern Orthodox, who strive to represent a christianity that they believe is more like the pre-Roman church...that is, what was before the 4th century. And in a way, they are academically correct, since the highest authorities after the last apostle died were their successors, the bishops they supposedly appointed in the various geographical areas of their day: throughout Asia Minor and the near East.

Myself, I do believe that the Anglicans, like the Presbyterians, Baptists, and others, will splinter through this schism. Every Christian denomination experiences cycles of schisms...and this has resulted in the myraid of christian denominations that you find today. To verify this, why not walk down the street in any American town of decent size, and you will see several christian churches of different denominations across the street from each other. Or, just look through the local phone book. :D
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Post by Godslayer »

I believe that the Anglican Church will not split. The reason that the church has lasted this long is that it has always conformed to the accepted views of society. It has done this, in my opinion, by compromising their beliefs and turning hypocritical. the church has long, even from the time of its conception, held to beliefs and dogmas that are meant to make it more acceptable to the public and have no foundation in the Christian Bible. The very concept of confesion is one such belief. the bible never sanctioned confession as a way to ask forgiveness for one's sins. The Bible states that the only way to be forgiven is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and ask forgiveness directly from him. Now when I say directly from him, I don't mean face-to-face literally, but in prayer. The fact that Catholics use confessions as a way of repentance gives credence to my opinion that the church conforms to society. When a priest grants someone absolution, it negates the need of prayer to ask for forgiveness. This prevents people having to have an active prayer life, IMO. It is just another way the church has formed to society.

The point I'm trying to make is that, because the church has conformed to what the rest of the world thinks is correct, then I believe it will do it again. Everyone is trying to be poltically correct: politicians, public interest groups, schools, and, yes, churches. The politically correct thing to do in this situation would be to accept the bishop's chosen lifestyle and encourage it. I believe that the church will respond in the way that the world wants it to, allowing the bishop to stay. I personally hope that the don't let him continue to serve, because I believe that homosexuality is wrong, but that's my opinion. However, should they let him stay, it won't be unexpected.
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