Dealing with bluffs

faruz · Post by **faruz** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:50 am

I know it's a popular subject but I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

In one of our adventures we had to retrieve a special ring.
After a long adventure we found this ring and while playing a rogue I just had to steal it.
So I sent a note to my DM and told him that I'll be taking this ring and even succeeded rolling for it.

Half an hour later we got to the man supposed to pay for his beloved ring and when our Paladin tried to give it away he found out he doesnt own it anymore.
Everyone immediately turned to me claiming that they "saw my note" and it's probably it. I threw a Bluff check and got so high that no one could get even close so they're "characters" thought I was speaking the truth when I said "I never took it".

(My story is getting long... sorry).
Some of the characters "refused" to believe me because their players "saw the note" and eventually demanded a strip search where I lost my ring.

What can we do in order to not put the players in such difficult situations?
Do you have a trick you use?

We once took a laptop for me and one for the DM so I could use instant messaging to write my ideas without the others noticing. But getting laptops isnt easy these days...

Grimar · Post by **Grimar** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:07 pm

hmm. i have encountered the problem several times. i think your friends should roleplay their characters better. in the game they dont know you took it. this problem can be connected to metagaming.

i think you DM should let his characters search you, but give them XP penalty for not roleplaying... that way they won't do it again.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:23 pm

[QUOTE=Grimar]
i think you DM should let his characters search you, but give them XP penalty for not roleplaying... that way they won't do it again.[/QUOTE]

you just love the XP penalty now don't you

Anyways.... If your players say they saw the note while the Characters didn't, make a rule. It is the character that has to detect the missing ring. not the players. Even if the players detect it, their characters are those who have to know it.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:34 pm

Did you talk about this with your group?
Tell them how it feels on your end. It totally kills everything a rogue/thief stands for. Not being able to do it kills the class.

But also remember how this would come across to them. Stealing from other characters is risky business! Watch out for in game conficts that lead to out of game conflicts. Remember that it's all for fun and that it's just a game.I don't mean to play the devils advocate (what whould his stats be

), but there always are two sides to a story.

Plus, a bluff doesn't automatically mean that they trust you. They can think you didn't steal it, but still not trust you. Perhaps they too were roleplaying. Rolls can be tricky things sometimes...

Communication is the key in most situations.

Or you can secretly give him the note.

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:39 pm

Relying on out of game components to base a PC decision on really irritates me as a GM - the players claiming "I saw the note! I know he has it" is completely irrelevant to the *characters*. They certainly didn't see the note. They may or may not have believed your Bluff, and they may harbour suspicions, but acting on out-of-character information - bah.

In your position, I would ask to discuss this out of session. Explain that you think that recent event in-game were too affected by out-of-game considerations, and you'll like that to be curtailed in the future, if possible.

Cheers,
TGHO

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:56 pm

In my group, if we reacted to everybit of info that occured outside the game, there would be no way our group could function. First off, in game, we don't trust each other as is. Add to that, we are completely dysfunctional as all hell.

This is definatly an instance of metagaming.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:26 am

ONe thing I use is the old trick of refusing to be OOC. The GM basically says "What note are you referring to Sir Playercharacter?" If ths doesn't work and they still insist on you being searched, it simply isn't there. You dropped it or something. Then Fudge your spot roll and you find it almost immediately whereas the PCs don't see you picking it up. If they wanna metagame, we can metagame.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:43 am

Creative.

I like!

I would solve the problem that way ingame, and talk about it later out of character.

In any case, you should take action.

melancolly · Post by **melancolly** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:56 pm

i hate metagaming when i played a theif it would happen all the time . but now that i gm i can see both sides of the story , i think the best bet is to steal stuff that isnt critical to the games goals , you can still get the best picks from the treasure without ruining the game for others .

Math Mannaman · Post by **Math Mannaman** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:53 pm

[QUOTE=melancolly] i think the best bet is to steal stuff that isnt critical to the games goals , you can still get the best picks from the treasure without ruining the game for others .

[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with that. There needs to be a point where working together with the party members takes precedence over so called “role playing”. Without the party, you don’t get very far, that’s the point. Also, to the whole metagameing idea, what’s more valuable: the ring, or the XP you get for completing the adventure successfully?

Recently in my game, I had a problem with a player who just by nature would refuse to work with the party, and go with the general flow. This friend of ours has been in our game for years, and – always - makes a problem character: A kender, an evil mage, a greedy barbarian, etc. He believed that this is what makes the game fun, mixing it up, causing grief the other PC’s. This is actually untrue, because this makes more work for the DM (which takes away from the main game), and frustrates the majority, who want to work together. Not that you cant role play out those intense paladin - thief confrontations, but overall the party should be working together….

Of course all of this is voided if you playing a campaign with an evil alignment in the majority.

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:40 am

All I can say is:

IF YOU CAN NOT "ROLE PLAY" DON'T PLAY ROLEPLAYING GAMES.

It's perfectly OK to suspect thief PC for stealing the ring (he is a thief after all) and not trusting him when he said he didn't do it, you may even cast Discern Lies (Clr4/Pal3) spell before questioning him - but demanding a strip search because you "saw the note" is bad playing.

Math on ring or XP: who said that this thief didn't recive another offer on the ring from another NPC - giving the ring to him would complete the quest and grant XP.

I'm allways amazed how people asume that a good alligned party will work together. Everyone forget the other aspect of allighnment Law vs. Chaos. A conflict between Lawful alligned and Chaoticly alligned character can (and if properly played will) be at least as big as the one between Good and Evil one.
So unless all PC's are of the same allighnemt there should be some internal conflict within the group (otherwise someone is roleplaying badly).

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:02 am

So Ripe, are you 13 or what?

If you can't roleplay you just say "I roll a bluff" and it's up to the DM to fit a bluff reasonable for that character into the framework of the game.

Math Mannaman · Post by **Math Mannaman** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:26 am

[QUOTE=Ripe]

Math on ring or XP: who said that this thief didn't recive another offer on the ring from another NPC - giving the ring to him would complete the quest and grant XP.

I'm allways amazed how people asume that a good alligned party will work together. Everyone forget the other aspect of allighnment Law vs. Chaos. A conflict between Lawful alligned and Chaoticly alligned character can (and if properly played will) be at least as big as the one between Good and Evil one.
So unless all PC's are of the same allighnemt there should be some internal conflict within the group (otherwise someone is roleplaying badly).[/QUOTE]

Look, all I am saying is to me, the biggest draw back of D&D is the constant arguing and bickering between players, usually over rules they are trying to exploit, or a PC ruining the parties objective by doing something like attempting the steal an objective item. I am in no way saying that there should not be role-playing, or even conflict among the party.

In a way it is interesting when something like this topic happens – but in a long-term campaign it is pointless and slows the game down, so does arguing over things like “bluff checks” when a crucial item is missing and there is rouge in the party with a reputation for stealing. On that note, making checks like that – PC vs. PC – should not be happening in the first place. That’s like making morale checks for PCs. PC interactions should all be role-played out.

Cheers~

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:50 am

If you can't roleplay you just say "I roll a bluff" and it's up to the DM to fit a bluff reasonable for that character into the framework of the game.

Actualy in this situation all he should say is "I didn't do it." and since DM already know that's a lie he should made all apropriate rolls (bluff for thief and sense motive for everyone else) and made a judgement - do they belive him or not. And saying "I roll a bluff" is roleplaying - you should actualy do it only in LARP.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:14 pm

what’s more valuable: the ring, or the XP you get for completing the adventure successfully?

What is this "XP" you speak of, good sir?

I don't allow any metion of rolls, XP, any of that. I can mention it, but players cannot. If I want them to roll, I say "roll a d20" then I do all the calculations myself. The players don't even feel like they are in a game, more like a play. We don't do LARP though. Everyone is seated with a character sheet.

boo's daddy · Post by **boo's daddy** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:07 am

Difficult one. I used to get my players to pass dummy notes. If someone is passing a note every 15 minutes or so, nobody will know when it's a genuine one. Also, if you're a player, time your notes so that it's not a dead giveaway. Give the DM advanced notice of when you're going to nick someone's prized possession.

However you solve the problem of "metagaming" (nice term, I call it "cheating"

), you have to get your players to buy into it so that they all agree, and can see the benefit from it. Send some notes to the poor honest paladin so that he doesn't feel left out.

Math Mannaman · Post by **Math Mannaman** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:50 pm

[QUOTE=boo's daddy] Send some notes to the poor honest paladin so that he doesn't feel left out.[/QUOTE]

That would be the note that reads: "You are starting to have a morale problem with members of your party and feel compelled to act on this matter..."

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:28 am

That sounds more like something a player has to decide for himself, not th DM.

Perhaps a note that he feels evil nearby or something, that could even mean another player.

faruz · Post by **faruz** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:19 am

The problem with notes is that it really slows the game.
Have you ever tried another system to pass secret instructions?

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:16 pm

I sometimes pre-write them if I see it coming, make use of pauzes in the game, so nobody has to wait untill I finish my note.