Melee Combat Feat Comparision\Explaination

[dorian_gray]

Having read a LOT of hugely confused ideas on melee feats, especially melee criticals, i thought i'd start this thread. I am going to compare the use of flurry with the use of improved criticals.
The rules are based on AD&D 3rd edition with some slight changes:

Dual Weilding:
Extra off hand attack, using saber in the off hand. Gets a penalty to attack, but this can be neglected using feats. Main hand gets full strength modifier, off-hand gets half.
Base damage 1-20
Base Critical range 19-20

Double Saber:
Extra 'off hand' attack, (although really just an extra attack with the same Saber). 1.5 times Strength modifier to ALL atacks.
Base damage 1-24
Base Critical range 20

Critical strike: The critical range shows the number that must be thrown on a d20 for a critical threat to occur. IF this occurs another throw is made to hit the target (it is not an automatic hit). If this hits, the damage, including strength modifiers, is multiplied by the critical mulitplier, typically *2. After this any 'massive criticals' damage is added (not multiplied).
i.e if you get a 20, a critical threat will occur, then you throw again to see if you hit the target (using attack modifiers and your opponents AC as normal) before damage occurs.

Okay, thats the basics. From that, with out any extra feats extra we can see that a double blade does more damage, but two singles get more criticals. It would seem natural to develope the critical range of the two single light sabers and to just get extra attacks with the double blade.

Critical range can be increased to 13-20 with master criticals for two single sabers. With keen it is increased to 11-20. I wont explain why this is now, just accept it. With Shein saber style you can increase your critical multiplier by 1, i.e *2 to * 3. So this means you have a 1 in 2 chance of doing *3 damage with this set up. ( you get -5 Ac also with master critical).

Master flurry gives an extra attack at no penelty.

Presumably you will be using Master speed for two extra attacks per round. So it looks like this:

2-sabers:
3 main hand attacks +full strength modifer
off hand attack +half strength modifier
EACH have critical threat of 11-20, critical multiplier of *3. (assuming keen and shein style).

Double saber:
5 main hand attacks. Each have 1.5* strength modifier.
Critical threat of 19-20 (assuming keen and shein style).

Now come the tricky part...comparing damage. Obviously since critical threat rolls are random, i will have to consider probabilities. This is how i will do it (i wont explain why this is true, just ask your maths teacher and trust me).
Example: If you have a threat range of 11-20, you have a .5 chance of a critical hit. With a critical hit multiplier of *3, you will do *2 damage on average. Why? you have .5 chance of 3* damage and .5 chance of 1* damge. (.5*3)+(.5*1)=2
If the critical threat range is, say, 19-20, you have a 2 in 20 chance, that is, 0.1, of doing 3 times damage and a 0.9 chance of doing 1 times damage. so (.1*3)+(.9*1)=1.2. So on average you will do 1.2 times the damage of your attacks given a 19-20 threat range and a *3 multiplier.

So for using two sabers you will on average double the damage you do. For a double saber you will on average do 1.2 times the damage. However, there are two more factors to conside.
1) Double saber users will have an extra attack.
2) Double saber users do 1-24 base damage and have 1.5 times strength modifier.

So it is not cut and dry yet. Unfortunately, without taking an assumed strength modifier, it is difficult to compare.
Also, the higher the dmg level the saber has, the more the multipliers kick in.

EXAMPLES:
BASE ASSUMPTIONS:
All these examples assume a keen crystal and the shein style, giving: 11-20 critical threat for two sabers, 19-20 critical threat for a double saber, and *3 critical multiplier for both. They also assume two saber PC is using master critical for increased critical threat and that Double Saber PC user is using Master Flurry for an extra attack.
Assumes that both sabers do the same damage for the two saber user. (double saber uses same dmg for main hand and off hand attacks).
Also assuming that you have equal attack and thus equally likely to hit opponent.

eg1)
Strength modifier +10. No extra Saber damage.

Two sabers:
20+10 (Main hand)
20+10 (Main hand)
20+10 (Main hand)
20+5 (Off hand)
=115
115*2 (Critical Threat 11-20, *3 critical multiplier).
=230.

Double Saber:
(24+15)*5 (Since you have 5 attacks all at 1.5 strength modifier).
=195
195*1.2 (Critical threat range 19-20, *3 critical multiplier)
=234

Here Double saber has a slight advantage. Increase the strength modifer and that advantage increases.

eg2)
Str mod: +20

Two sabers: (((20+20)*3) + (20+10)) = 150 150*2 = 300
Double saber: ((24+30)*5) = 270 270 * 1.2 = 324

As the strength modifier increase, so will the gap.

HOWEVER......

Increasing the base saber damage (i.e. using crystals) leads to a different story. All things equal, the double saber will still have 4 more base dmg, so lets say......

eg3)

Two sabers: 40
Double saber: 44

With STR modifier +10:

Two sabers:
(40+10)*3) (Three main hand attacks full str modifier)
40+5 (Off hand attack half str modifier)
=195
195*2=390 (Critical Threat 11-20, *3 critical multiplier).

Double Saber:
(44+15)*5 (Five attacks at +1.5 str modifier)
=295
295*1.2=354 (Critical threat range 19-20, *3 critical multiplier)

Here the differnce is fairly large. As the saber damage increases, it will favour the two saber user more.

eg4)
Now taking into account a +20 strength modifier.

Two Saber: (((40+20)*3) + (40+10)) = 230 230 *2 = 460

Double saber: ((44+30)*5) = 370 370 * 1.2 = 444

Even with the Str modifier at +20, it still favours two sabers with master critical. I dont think that it is resonable to assume a much better than +20 str modifier, and even if it were increased, the saber damage can still be increased, keeping damage output firmly in favour of the master critical strike user.

Further notes:
1)Normal damage increasing crystals are better than massive critical crystals for both flurry and critical strike users. Why? Massive critcal is not multiplied by 3. So normal 1d8 dmg crystal is better than even 3d8 massive critical, because the 1d8 is multiplied to make 3d8 on a successful critical. So if you make a critical it is equal and if you dont make a critcal the 1d8 dmg still has effect, so choose 1d8 dmg over 3d8 massive critical. Just remember to multiply the dmg increase of a crystal by 3 when comparing to a massive critical crystal. If the dmg is equal or better, chose the normal dmg increasing crystal.
EDIT: apparently variable dmg does not mulitply (thanks to Noober for info). if this is so then it is still true that a set value dmg increase is better than a massive critical if it is a third the value or more, but this seems unlikely given the size of massive critical bonuses. so although +5dmg would be preferable to a massive critical of +15dmg or lower, it will not often occur due to the fact that usually non variable dmg crystals have low values.

2)It is more difficult to maintain equal damage with two light sabers than one, so you will need to look harder for crystals to have off hand at same at the same level of damage as main hand. Double blade uses same damage for main hand and off hand attacks, so you only need one set of crystals.

Okay thats it. This post actually took nearly 50 mins!! hope it is useful to anyone wanting to compare those two melee feats.
Any comments on personal experience or things i have missed is appreciated.

[Noober]

[QUOTE=dorian_gray]Normal damage increasing crystals are better than massive critical crystals for both flurry and critical strike users. Why? Massive critcal is not multiplied by 3. So normal 1d8 dmg crystal is better than even 3d8 massive critical, because the 1d8 is multiplied to make 3d8 on a successful critical.[/QUOTE]
I thought so too, however apparently variable (e.g. 1-8) added damage is not multiplied at all!

Interesting analysis, however you seem to have missed Power Attack. Do you think you would have time to do a graph as to when Flurry become more effective than Power Attack (scaling up average damage)?

[dorian_gray]

[QUOTE=Noober]I thought so too, however apparently variable (e.g. 1-8) added damage is not multiplied at all!

Interesting analysis, however you seem to have missed Power Attack. Do you think you would have time to do a graph as to when Flurry become more effective than Power Attack (scaling up average damage)?[/QUOTE]

hmmmm interesting......i'll alter teh note for only non variable damage.
havent looked into power attack yet.

[dorian_gray]

a thought occurs....if variable added damage does not multiply then it may slightly reduce teh effectivness of master criticals as you will have to either: chose crystals that add non variable damage or accept smaller critcal damage.
if you chose crystals that add non variable damage it may be than the saber does less damage than one with variable crystals.
a flurry user would be less affected by smaller critcals and may opt for the higher dmg saber, perhaps reducing the gap between master critical use and master flurry use.
this is entirely dependant on the difference in damage of the sabers, and how much it would affect the criticals.

[justabeginner]

Does the damage from power attack get multiplied if a critical occurs?

(Off topic) Is the best ranged configuration two blasters or a two handed one?

Would the best lightsaber configuration ever get beaten by the best ranged weapon configuration (or even melee?) We are assuming here that the characters wielding the configurations would have maxed out the appropriate feats.

If the target was wearing items that provided immunity against critical hits, would that mean the dual wield configuration would completely suck compared to the two handed one?