I'm planning to start BG2 anew with a chaotic evil, kensai/thief. (dualed) I plan on going solo for the most part, but I may pick up someone here and there if I see fit. I searched the forums for anything related to kensai/thief, but didn't find alot of information dealing with this dual class. So a few questions.....
When should I dual? (I have removed the XP cap btw) Is the payoff good in later levels? What weapons would be good to specialize in? (consider backstabbing, speed factor, etc.) Will the skill "Detect Illusions" dispell all illusion based spells?
What I'm actually looking for....is any input you can give me that would be helpful. Thanks in advance!
Seeking your input!
Seeking your input!
"If at first you don't succeed.......then failure just may be your style"
Well if you want to dual early, I'd recommend at kensai level 9, because at that level you get another profiency-star-thingy. You get another at level 12 I think, and then 15 if it follows the same pattern, which I can't remember if it does.
And Katanas are good, especially once you get Celestial Fury, but there are several good longswords too. And umm... shortswords once you get to ToB, since there's the Shortsword of Mask (or something like that) that is pretty darn good, and you get an early +3 shortsword in SoA (the quest with the Shadow thieves)
And Katanas are good, especially once you get Celestial Fury, but there are several good longswords too. And umm... shortswords once you get to ToB, since there's the Shortsword of Mask (or something like that) that is pretty darn good, and you get an early +3 shortsword in SoA (the quest with the Shadow thieves)
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Galuf the Dwarf
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[QUOTE=Malykor]I'm planning to start BG2 anew with a chaotic evil, kensia/thief. (dualed) I plan on going solo for the most part, but I may pick up someone here and there if I see fit. I searched the forums for anything related to kensia/thief, but didn't find alot of information dealing with this dual class. So a few questions.....[/QUOTE]
I thought a Kensai could (normally) only be of Lawful alignment.
I thought a Kensai could (normally) only be of Lawful alignment.
Dungeon Crawl Inc.: It's the most fun you can have without 3 midgets and a whip! Character stats made by your's truly!
[QUOTE=Galuf the Dwarf]I thought a Kensai could (normally) only be of Lawful alignment. [/QUOTE]
I looked this up
The only restriction is....... "Cannot be of Neutral Alignment"
So therefor I can be Chaotic Evil, unless I'm missing somthing.
[/QUOTE]I looked this up
The only restriction is....... "Cannot be of Neutral Alignment"
So therefor I can be Chaotic Evil, unless I'm missing somthing.
"If at first you don't succeed.......then failure just may be your style"
I believe level 13 is a common choise due to an extra attack obtained at that level?
May I also propose one of my favourites, the Artemis Entreri-like Assassin(10)/Fighter?
May I also propose one of my favourites, the Artemis Entreri-like Assassin(10)/Fighter?
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Life seems short considering how long you will be dead.
[size=0](Feel free to join us for a drink, play some pool or even relax in a hottub (but the coffin's mine!) - want to learn more? )[/size]
Life seems short considering how long you will be dead.
[QUOTE=Malykor]I looked this up
The only restriction is....... "Cannot be of Neutral Alignment"
So therefor I can be Chaotic Evil, unless I'm missing somthing.[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you looked that up, but it's wrong. Are you sure it didn't say "cannot be of Chaotic alignment"? A Kensai can be Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Lawful Evil, or Neutral Evil.
The best levels at which to dual are 9th Level and 12th Level. Look at it this way. You get a +1 bonus to hit and damage for every 3 levels, a -1 bonus to Speed for every 4 levels, and one use of Kai per day for every 4 levels. That makes 12th Level a "sweet spot". On the other hand, it takes a long time to get your Kensai abilities back if you have to reach 13th Level as a Thief. But if you can wait that long, you might consider dualling at 13th Level to get better saving throws and an extra half attack per round (you won't get any more abilities or proficiency points).
Celestial Fury is one of the best weapon choices because of its ability to stun your opponents. You can put another katana in your offhand, such as Malakar or Dakkon's Zerth Blade, to get AC bonuses, or you could wield Belm (the scimitar) to get an extra attack with Celestial Fury. Hindo's Doom is also a good choice in Throne of Bhaal. Or you could let your "Sword Saint" wield Crom Faeyr. As any munchkin will tell you, Crom Faeyr and Celestial Fury are the best weapon combination in the game.
The only restriction is....... "Cannot be of Neutral Alignment"
So therefor I can be Chaotic Evil, unless I'm missing somthing.[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you looked that up, but it's wrong. Are you sure it didn't say "cannot be of Chaotic alignment"? A Kensai can be Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Lawful Evil, or Neutral Evil.
The best levels at which to dual are 9th Level and 12th Level. Look at it this way. You get a +1 bonus to hit and damage for every 3 levels, a -1 bonus to Speed for every 4 levels, and one use of Kai per day for every 4 levels. That makes 12th Level a "sweet spot". On the other hand, it takes a long time to get your Kensai abilities back if you have to reach 13th Level as a Thief. But if you can wait that long, you might consider dualling at 13th Level to get better saving throws and an extra half attack per round (you won't get any more abilities or proficiency points).
Celestial Fury is one of the best weapon choices because of its ability to stun your opponents. You can put another katana in your offhand, such as Malakar or Dakkon's Zerth Blade, to get AC bonuses, or you could wield Belm (the scimitar) to get an extra attack with Celestial Fury. Hindo's Doom is also a good choice in Throne of Bhaal. Or you could let your "Sword Saint" wield Crom Faeyr. As any munchkin will tell you, Crom Faeyr and Celestial Fury are the best weapon combination in the game.
If you plan to go to ToB then dual either at 12 or 13, but if you play only in SoA (regardless the exp. cap remover) definetly dual at 9: this way you will enjoy your char., while dualling late you'll be playing the kensai/thief only for the last part of the game.
As for dualing at 12 or 13 (if you go to ToB) for me it depends if you have the mastery patch installed: if yes, than dual at 12, because the grand mastery will already give you an extra attack thus dininishing the return of waiting for the later dual point.
As for weapon choice, katanas are a very popular choice so I wan't discuss it, as for the off-hand weapon my choice is for Belm/Kundane or as a second choice a protective sword (Arbane, Equalizer etc.): the Belm choice is the most damaging (surprise! is indeed more dmging than having Crom in offhans as an old thread showed) and is also more stilish and more credible RPG wise.
To von Dondu: indeed for munchkin C.F.+C.F. is a great combo, but AoU and FoA both make a better combo with Crom (FoA +3 for me is already at the same lev. of Celestial Fury).
As for dualing at 12 or 13 (if you go to ToB) for me it depends if you have the mastery patch installed: if yes, than dual at 12, because the grand mastery will already give you an extra attack thus dininishing the return of waiting for the later dual point.
As for weapon choice, katanas are a very popular choice so I wan't discuss it, as for the off-hand weapon my choice is for Belm/Kundane or as a second choice a protective sword (Arbane, Equalizer etc.): the Belm choice is the most damaging (surprise! is indeed more dmging than having Crom in offhans as an old thread showed) and is also more stilish and more credible RPG wise.
To von Dondu: indeed for munchkin C.F.+C.F. is a great combo, but AoU and FoA both make a better combo with Crom (FoA +3 for me is already at the same lev. of Celestial Fury).
@lompo: I see your point about Axe of the Unyielding and the Flail of Ages, but when I quote munchkins, I'm usually being sarcastic. Personally, I think that a Kensai (a "Sword Saint") should stick with swords.
@alykor: Since we're talking about a Thief who will eventually get Use Any Item, you might also consider putting proficiency points in Two Handed Sword and Two Handed Weapon Style and letting him wield Carsomyr. I don't know if that's the best option for you, but it's certainly an interesting one.
Also, I should have thought of this earlier, but since you're playing an Evil character, don't forget about Blackrazor. I don't know if it's worth waiting for (you won't get to use it much in Shadows of Amn), but it's definitely a very powerful weapon.
Personally, I think that a Kensai (a "Sword Saint") should stick with swords.@alykor: Since we're talking about a Thief who will eventually get Use Any Item, you might also consider putting proficiency points in Two Handed Sword and Two Handed Weapon Style and letting him wield Carsomyr. I don't know if that's the best option for you, but it's certainly an interesting one.
Also, I should have thought of this earlier, but since you're playing an Evil character, don't forget about Blackrazor. I don't know if it's worth waiting for (you won't get to use it much in Shadows of Amn), but it's definitely a very powerful weapon.
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Cuchulain82
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spoilers (?)
As far as I'm concerned, the dualed Fighter (Kensai)-> Theif is the best class in the game.
As for what level, it is really up to you. You do have 4 basic choices:
Lvl 9- Solid abilities, highest theif level, quickest to regain fighter abilities
Lvl 12- Extra prof, better THACo/AC/HP/Kensai Bonuses, lower theif skills, longer to regain abilities
Lvl13- Extra attack, more HP
Lvl 15- Tons of HP/Kensai Bonuses, best fighter type, ridiculously long time to get theif skills back
If you're going to go all the way through TOB, you can wait until 12 or 13. I waited until 15 once and it took forever. However, the longer you wait to dual, the better your character will be. Basically, you have to decide how long you are willing to suffer as a sissy theif who can't wear any armor.
As far as weapons go, you have many options. First of all, do you want to dual wield or go two handed?
Two Handed: Well, for Carsomyr (duh!) Don't forget that, because you will be a theif, you will get UAI. This means you will have the option to be the best two handed fighter in the game in terms of pure combat ability- Grand Mastery in Two handed swords, plus Carsomyr and Kensai bonuses- wow. Plus, I love the idea of being a totally vile thief who can manipulate the holiest of swords and use it to do evil deeds Even before you get Carsomyr and UAI, there is no shortage of very good two handed swords, right from the beginning of the game.
Also, don’t forget staves. If you use two handed swords primarily, staves can be your backup. With UAI, you will be able to use the Staff of the Magi, making you invisible all the time. This all but guarantees backstabs, and if you have two ** in staff, you can use the Staff of the Ram (+6) to backstab. Or, if halberds are more your speed, use the Ravager or Wave. Plus, you can use bows/crossbows without having to change weapons in combat.
If, however, you want to dual wield, you also have tons of options. The best weapons are, IMO:
Crom Faer, the Axe of the Unyeilding(AoU), Blackrazor, Angruvadal, FoA,… actually there are really too many to list. Long Swords are a solid choice, as are Flails and Warhammers. Axes will also be good, but mainly in TOB. Katanas are also good, but I don’t like them as much personally.
Possible combinations (just a sample):
AoU+ Blackrazor, Angruvadal, or CromFaer- Stats through the roof
Celestial Fury + Equalizer- Immunities, stuns, bonus damage, you name it
Defender of Easthaven+ FoA- the Cleric/Ranger’s bread and butter. The best early game combination.
Your options are essentially endless, so think of what you want your character to be. With UAI you can be the tyrant you always envisioned, since you essentially get backdoor access to everything in the game. With all this said, much of this will take planning. Choosing the proper proficiencies as a fighter, which level to dual, having the patience to wait until TOB for the better weapons, etc. If you want to be simple, choose longswords, flails, or two handed swords. However, if you want something like Bastard Swords or Axes, you may have to plan.
Good luck!
Edit- Here is an old post I wrote about F->Th. At the bottom of that post, I linked to another post you may find useful. Neither is very long. (As you can tell, I like this character type )
As far as I'm concerned, the dualed Fighter (Kensai)-> Theif is the best class in the game.
As for what level, it is really up to you. You do have 4 basic choices:
Lvl 9- Solid abilities, highest theif level, quickest to regain fighter abilities
Lvl 12- Extra prof, better THACo/AC/HP/Kensai Bonuses, lower theif skills, longer to regain abilities
Lvl13- Extra attack, more HP
Lvl 15- Tons of HP/Kensai Bonuses, best fighter type, ridiculously long time to get theif skills back
If you're going to go all the way through TOB, you can wait until 12 or 13. I waited until 15 once and it took forever. However, the longer you wait to dual, the better your character will be. Basically, you have to decide how long you are willing to suffer as a sissy theif who can't wear any armor.
As far as weapons go, you have many options. First of all, do you want to dual wield or go two handed?
Two Handed: Well, for Carsomyr (duh!) Don't forget that, because you will be a theif, you will get UAI. This means you will have the option to be the best two handed fighter in the game in terms of pure combat ability- Grand Mastery in Two handed swords, plus Carsomyr and Kensai bonuses- wow. Plus, I love the idea of being a totally vile thief who can manipulate the holiest of swords and use it to do evil deeds
Even before you get Carsomyr and UAI, there is no shortage of very good two handed swords, right from the beginning of the game.Also, don’t forget staves. If you use two handed swords primarily, staves can be your backup. With UAI, you will be able to use the Staff of the Magi, making you invisible all the time. This all but guarantees backstabs, and if you have two ** in staff, you can use the Staff of the Ram (+6) to backstab. Or, if halberds are more your speed, use the Ravager or Wave. Plus, you can use bows/crossbows without having to change weapons in combat.
If, however, you want to dual wield, you also have tons of options. The best weapons are, IMO:
Crom Faer, the Axe of the Unyeilding(AoU), Blackrazor, Angruvadal, FoA,… actually there are really too many to list. Long Swords are a solid choice, as are Flails and Warhammers. Axes will also be good, but mainly in TOB. Katanas are also good, but I don’t like them as much personally.
Possible combinations (just a sample):
AoU+ Blackrazor, Angruvadal, or CromFaer- Stats through the roof
Celestial Fury + Equalizer- Immunities, stuns, bonus damage, you name it
Defender of Easthaven+ FoA- the Cleric/Ranger’s bread and butter. The best early game combination.
Your options are essentially endless, so think of what you want your character to be. With UAI you can be the tyrant you always envisioned, since you essentially get backdoor access to everything in the game. With all this said, much of this will take planning. Choosing the proper proficiencies as a fighter, which level to dual, having the patience to wait until TOB for the better weapons, etc. If you want to be simple, choose longswords, flails, or two handed swords. However, if you want something like Bastard Swords or Axes, you may have to plan.
Good luck!
Edit- Here is an old post I wrote about F->Th. At the bottom of that post, I linked to another post you may find useful. Neither is very long. (As you can tell, I like this character type
)Custodia legis
[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]
Lvl 9- Solid abilities, highest theif level, quickest to regain fighter abilities
Lvl 12- Extra prof, better THACo/AC/HP/Kensai Bonuses, lower theif skills, longer to regain abilities
Lvl13- Extra attack, more HP
Lvl 15- Tons of HP/Kensai Bonuses, best fighter type, ridiculously long time to get theif skills back
[/QUOTE]
HP are not a factor to be counted on, because between a 9th dual and a 15th dual are 6 (!) hp.
Compeared to a 13th dual a 15th dual gets +3 Thac0 and +1 dmg at the cost of being able to plai the dual class mainly in ToB only (and remember that you start to get the HLA only when your 2nd class pass 3 million exp).
As for weaponery, I would choose a backstabbing weapon as primary weapon to get the mastery in, and second being a Kensai I would choose a bladed weapon (cm'on some RPG!).
And also being a Kensai (a sword saint) a weapon like Belm/Kundane (and Scarley ninja to after UAI) that add extra attack really fit the role (being also the most damaging choices!).
Alternativly go for staves and daggers (throwing weapons).
@Van Dondu: agree with you regarding munchkin, some RPG should be preserved.
Lvl 9- Solid abilities, highest theif level, quickest to regain fighter abilities
Lvl 12- Extra prof, better THACo/AC/HP/Kensai Bonuses, lower theif skills, longer to regain abilities
Lvl13- Extra attack, more HP
Lvl 15- Tons of HP/Kensai Bonuses, best fighter type, ridiculously long time to get theif skills back
[/QUOTE]
HP are not a factor to be counted on, because between a 9th dual and a 15th dual are 6 (!) hp.
Compeared to a 13th dual a 15th dual gets +3 Thac0 and +1 dmg at the cost of being able to plai the dual class mainly in ToB only (and remember that you start to get the HLA only when your 2nd class pass 3 million exp).
As for weaponery, I would choose a backstabbing weapon as primary weapon to get the mastery in, and second being a Kensai I would choose a bladed weapon (cm'on some RPG!).
And also being a Kensai (a sword saint) a weapon like Belm/Kundane (and Scarley ninja to after UAI) that add extra attack really fit the role (being also the most damaging choices!).
Alternativly go for staves and daggers (throwing weapons).
@Van Dondu: agree with you regarding munchkin, some RPG should be preserved.
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Cuchulain82
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[QUOTE=lompo]HP are not a factor to be counted on, because between a 9th dual and a 15th dual are 6 (!) hp.
Compeared to a 13th dual a 15th dual gets +3 Thac0 and +1 dmg at the cost of being able to plai the dual class mainly in ToB only (and remember that you start to get the HLA only when your 2nd class pass 3 million exp).[/quote]
This is mostly true*, but I didn't want to write all it out. I have my preferences, but ultimately it isn't my character.
*Wouldn't the HP difference be 12+con bonus, from 9-15 level? (2 hp/level, 6 lvls. total)
[QUOTE=lompo]As for weaponery, <snip> (cm'on some RPG!)[/QUOTE]
You can rpg just about anything. Personally, I would think Carsomyr is a great rpg choice for an evil Fighter/Theif. Maybe originally the PC wanted to weild the power of a paladin, but didn't have the moral qualifications. So the PC festered, and turned evil to gain the power to twist the sword to his own will...
Really it comes down to how you want to play your character- there are so many possible weapon combinations (because you have access to all weapons with UAI) that you can play your character however you want. Maybe the character just likes the sickening thud a flail makes on a solid hit, or loves the extra speed kundane gives him, it doesn't matter. IMO, the main characteristic of a F->Th is versatility, which leave tons of options.
@backstab
You can backstab with any weapon a thief can use. If you want to focus on backstabbing, then so be it- staves, katanas, daggers, maybe longswords... Again, it is all preference.
Compeared to a 13th dual a 15th dual gets +3 Thac0 and +1 dmg at the cost of being able to plai the dual class mainly in ToB only (and remember that you start to get the HLA only when your 2nd class pass 3 million exp).[/quote]
This is mostly true*, but I didn't want to write all it out. I have my preferences, but ultimately it isn't my character.
*Wouldn't the HP difference be 12+con bonus, from 9-15 level? (2 hp/level, 6 lvls. total)
[QUOTE=lompo]As for weaponery, <snip> (cm'on some RPG!)[/QUOTE]
You can rpg just about anything. Personally, I would think Carsomyr is a great rpg choice for an evil Fighter/Theif. Maybe originally the PC wanted to weild the power of a paladin, but didn't have the moral qualifications. So the PC festered, and turned evil to gain the power to twist the sword to his own will...
Really it comes down to how you want to play your character- there are so many possible weapon combinations (because you have access to all weapons with UAI) that you can play your character however you want. Maybe the character just likes the sickening thud a flail makes on a solid hit, or loves the extra speed kundane gives him, it doesn't matter. IMO, the main characteristic of a F->Th is versatility, which leave tons of options.
@backstab
You can backstab with any weapon a thief can use. If you want to focus on backstabbing, then so be it- staves, katanas, daggers, maybe longswords... Again, it is all preference.
Custodia legis
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Cuchulain82
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I would say 9 or 13. If you're gonna go to 12, you might as well go to 13 (unless it costs you another theif level- I can't remember for sure).
I don't know much about Detect Illusion, but I don't personally use it at all. True Sight, Detect Invis, Carsomyr, Keldorn, and Jan all find hidden things, and I'd rather have other skills.
I don't know much about Detect Illusion, but I don't personally use it at all. True Sight, Detect Invis, Carsomyr, Keldorn, and Jan all find hidden things, and I'd rather have other skills.
Custodia legis
[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]I would say 9 or 13. If you're gonna go to 12, you might as well go to 13 (unless it costs you another theif level- I can't remember for sure).
I don't know much about Detect Illusion, but I don't personally use it at all. True Sight, Detect Invis, Carsomyr, Keldorn, and Jan all find hidden things, and I'd rather have other skills.[/QUOTE]
But for solo reasons.........wouldn't Detect Illusions be of importance?
I don't know much about Detect Illusion, but I don't personally use it at all. True Sight, Detect Invis, Carsomyr, Keldorn, and Jan all find hidden things, and I'd rather have other skills.[/QUOTE]
But for solo reasons.........wouldn't Detect Illusions be of importance?
"If at first you don't succeed.......then failure just may be your style"
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JackOfClubs
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I usually only put points in Detect Illusions after I have maxed everything else. It can be useful at times but I would think it was less useful for a solo character because it imobilizes you while you are detecting. Hiding in shadows or attacking will cancel detect mode.
As to your original question, the chief use is for dispelling such mage protections as Mirror Image and (I think) invisibility. It's been awhile since I've tried it though. I believe the thief character in the Guarded Compound in the Temple District uses Detect Illusions quite frequently.
As to your original question, the chief use is for dispelling such mage protections as Mirror Image and (I think) invisibility. It's been awhile since I've tried it though. I believe the thief character in the Guarded Compound in the Temple District uses Detect Illusions quite frequently.
Resistance to Tyrants is Service to God.
Detect Illusion negate ALL illusion spells (Mirror Image, (Imp.) Invisibility, Project Image, Pixie Dust, Blur, Mislead, etc.)
This is a great skill (against spellcasters only).
I prefer to put points in Detect Illusion rather than in trap skills... simply because I think trap-laying is a too easy way to kill enemies... but as a Soloer, you may want traps
This is a great skill (against spellcasters only).
I prefer to put points in Detect Illusion rather than in trap skills... simply because I think trap-laying is a too easy way to kill enemies... but as a Soloer, you may want traps
Detect Illusions - Perhaps the most overlooked ability in Baldur's
Gate II. This acts as a True Sight that your thief can activate by
selecting "Find Traps" as a modal action. If you're going to use
this, you probably want to go all the way as fast as you can, since
generally you want to dispel illusions as fast as possible (although
the circus illusions are harmless and leaving a Detect Illusions at
10% on for a few rounds doesn't hurt you any).
In some respects, a high level Detect Illusions is even better
than True Sight, since it doesn't wipe out your own illusions and
since you essentially have an infinite use of it.
So what are illusions? The really annoying spells, fortunately for
a high level Detect Illusions: Mirror Image, (Improved) Invisibility
(which also includes Shadow Door, Invisibility 10' Radius, etc.),
Mislead (yes!), Simulacrum (woah!), Project Image (holy crap!), and
Blur. Also, the werewolves and shadows in the Circus Tent are
illusions, but the clones in Irenicus's dungeon are not (though they
seem like Simulacra of your characters).
The only problem is that it takes a while to "activate" after
selecting "Find Traps." Fortunately, this doesn't really
translate into anything but a shorter casting cost of a True Sight.
I got this from Chris Lee's thief guide. Is there any truth in this? I had no clue it worked with Simulacrum, Mislead, Project Image and such.
Gate II. This acts as a True Sight that your thief can activate by
selecting "Find Traps" as a modal action. If you're going to use
this, you probably want to go all the way as fast as you can, since
generally you want to dispel illusions as fast as possible (although
the circus illusions are harmless and leaving a Detect Illusions at
10% on for a few rounds doesn't hurt you any).
In some respects, a high level Detect Illusions is even better
than True Sight, since it doesn't wipe out your own illusions and
since you essentially have an infinite use of it.
So what are illusions? The really annoying spells, fortunately for
a high level Detect Illusions: Mirror Image, (Improved) Invisibility
(which also includes Shadow Door, Invisibility 10' Radius, etc.),
Mislead (yes!), Simulacrum (woah!), Project Image (holy crap!), and
Blur. Also, the werewolves and shadows in the Circus Tent are
illusions, but the clones in Irenicus's dungeon are not (though they
seem like Simulacra of your characters).
The only problem is that it takes a while to "activate" after
selecting "Find Traps." Fortunately, this doesn't really
translate into anything but a shorter casting cost of a True Sight.
I got this from Chris Lee's thief guide. Is there any truth in this? I had no clue it worked with Simulacrum, Mislead, Project Image and such.
"If at first you don't succeed.......then failure just may be your style"