I finished! What next- HOF or insane?

[ishuman]

Hey. I just finished normal mode so I’m wondering what to do next. I don’t know if the ending wasn’t satisfying enough or if the game was just that much fun but I’m actually thinking of going through the game again. Either way, I’m thinking of trying all (or parts) of my party out in HOF or starting over a new group in insane (normal) mode. Mostly, I want it to be different, fun and harder! I’d like melee to be an option but I felt like I almost could have finished normal mode on auto-pilot (I hardly even took any damage in the final battle). I’d also love to get a chance to try some different things I didn’t do in this group such as druids, paladin, bards, monks, ECL characters and fighter/thief builds.

So my question becomes, is this group ready for HOF? If so, which characters should I bring and what should I replace the other ones with? Or if I go with insane mode what kind of party should I use for that will be different, fun and harder? Here’s all the stats you could possibly want for my existing party at the very end of normal mode.


1) Gold Dwarf- fighter 10, Dreadmaster of Bane 6, LN
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 12, Ch 6;
skills (concentration 6, intimidate 13);
feats (bullheaded, cleave, power attack, iron will, improved critical, lightning reflexes, WS: Hammer, WS: Long Sword, maximized attacks, blind fight)

thoughts: I’d go with straight cleric levels here ending up as ftg 10/ clc 20. But wisdom is awfully low. Note: I did the Bane quest and didn’t get the +2 wisdom so I could add that through an editor and not feel guilty.

2) Human- Fighter 4 / Barbarian 12, NE
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 12, Ch 7;
skills (concentration 4, intimidate 12, wilderness lore 12);
feats: (dodge, improved critical, luck of heroes, cleave, power attack, WS: Mace, WS: Great Sword, maximized attacks)

thoughts: Is this character going to be useful in HOF? She’s a pure tank with low Int and Cha. Any mix-ins would have to be squatted 2 levels. Might be a candidate to be deleted and replaced with a caster such as druid or bard

3) Shield Dwarf- Battleguard of Tempus 16, CN
Str 14, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 22, Ch 6;
skills (concentration 19);
feats (blind-fight, combat casting, cleave, power attack, improved critical, sub vocal casting, MF: Axe)

thoughts: I guess I’d go straight cleric of tempus levels. Mix-ins would be limited to fighter since he’s a dwarf.

4) Human Sorceress 16, LE
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Ch 20;
skills (concentration 19, bluff 18, diplomacy 19, spellcraft 18);
feats (combat casting, lightning reflexes, Scion of Storms, SF: Enchantment 1, SF; Evocation 2, SF: Necromancy 1, Spirit of Flame)

thoughts: can’t do paladin since she’s LE. Once she gets 9th level spells I was thinking of adding a few monk levels but could do barbarian and rogue instead.

5) Lightfoot Halfling- Rogue 2 / Diviner 14, LN
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 10, Ch 6;
skills (alchemy 12, concentration 19, disable device 6, Knowledge 15, move silently 4, open lock 9, search 6, spellcraft 14, pick pocket 4);
feats (combat casting, rapid shot, WF: Missile, SF: Enchantment 1, SF; Evocation 2, SF: Transmutation 1, Spirit of Flame, spell penetration)

thoughts: Since she’s a Halfling any mix-ins would be limited to advancing the rogue levels. I imagine she’ll be the classic wizard 20/rogue 10.

6) Human- Rogue 3 / Demarch of Mask 13, NE
Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Ch 6;
skills (bluff 1, concentration 19, disable device 3, hide 9, move silently 9, open lock 1, search 5, spellcraft 1);
feats (blind fight, combat casting, dash, dodge, dirty fighting, rapid shot, subvocal casting, weapon finesse)

thoughts: Lots of options here. Would have to squat one level to add any other mix-ins.

Thanks for your thoughts! Sorry for the long post.

[Dedigan]

That party could do very well in HOF mode. Yes, there are improvements you could make, with the barbarian in particular. But even with a single fighter, HOF mode shouldn't be a great problem. Just lead into fights with summoned creatures and use plenty of heals. Or use a ranged weapon or two.

Another thing that I've been doing with my HOF game is don't be afraid of a 20% experience penalty. You'll still get to level 30 before the end of the game, and one or two lower level characters help the other characters gain experience more quickly.

[Ellester]

Well you said you want it different and hard, so I would say do the HOF deal. It’s real hard. And the number of monsters is different, as well as having insane amounts of hp’s. HOF also has different loot, so you get really super powerful items, which will make the loot part of the game different. Although, only some items are upgraded for HOF, a lot of the stuff is the same, in other words you’ll be running out of your +4 arrows after a while and you’ll be using +1 arrows again in Chapter 1 (unless you brought a lot from the previous game).

The only problem I have with HOF is the dependence on summoned monsters. You have to do it in every fight, which can make it monotonous. But, it’s still worth trying out HOF. I plan on going through HOF again with my current party in regular mode.

1) don’t go with Cleric your wisdom is too low, you can’t cast any spells. So I would stick with a fighter, or try another class with huge penalty.

2) Magic is more useful than tanks in HOF, but they still can be used. As you still have to deal out melee damage. I would take your Barb to 20 for the damage reduction. It should help. You have too low of a wis and int score to let this guy use magic.

3) You might want to go to a 20th level Cleric, but that’s it. You already have the spells you need. I would take fighter levels and get more feats and hp’s.

4) Personal preference, but you don’t get much after level 20. But I like to keep these pure classed anyways as it makes your spells harder to resist at higher levels. Also you could use some more magic using feats.

5)That’s fine

6) If you go with your number 5 build, I see this character as redundant. A Druid or Bard new character might be a good choice. If you do this do it after you start the game and have this character drop his equipment and then make the new character and pick up the old equipment. A new character can’t get all the good loot that you picked up in your previous game in Targos. For example he might be wearing chain mail, as that’s all you can find, which is weak for a HOF party.

[ishuman]

Some great ideas! As you can see I didn't plan to bring this party into HOF so it wasn't built with that in mind.

So how far into HOF mode do the battles start to require disabling spells and summons?

[Patrick]

I think your party would be fun. I would definatly go for Heart Of Fury! Also just remember creatures and enemies are alot tougher. The Goblins at Targos in the begining are probably tougher than standard Lone P.C.. Fun indeed though, I suppose you know all this, also items upgraded and added. Have Fun.

[silverdragon72]

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HOF will get quite challenging with that party!

...but try it!


- summons are only one solution to beat HOF - personally I don't like summons that much (cause you there are a few battles were you can't rely on them and it's quite boring after some time) - but they are very/to powerfull in HOF indeed!

- you can forget about all spells allowing a fort save in HOF also all damaged based spells!

- best solution is to have either some very high AC tanks (60+) or tanks protected with MI (or best both) to protect your casters and then cast malison & WoB!

...but exactly this tactic makes HOF quite boring after some time


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[Dedigan]

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].
- you can forget about all spells allowing a fort save in HOF also all damaged based spells!

- best solution is to have either some very high AC tanks (60+) or tanks protected with MI (or best both) to protect your casters and then cast malison & WoB!

...but exactly this tactic makes HOF quite boring after some time


.[/QUOTE]

But wail of the banshee (WoB) does make HOF pretty quick.

And it can be fun to mix it up a little bit. A lot of direct damage spells can help out a lot, and if your decoy has magic resistance, you can cast at yourself. I tend to use a whole lot of chromatic orb in my quest to disable opponents, one at a time. Symbol of Hopelessness is quicker. (Mass) Domination can also be fun.

Hit and runs are possible, but take forever.

[Melondar]

Umm... How do you get 60 AC?

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=Melondar]Umm... How do you get 60 AC?[/QUOTE]


you can get AC up to ~74 to 78 AFAIR


what you need are:

- at least one monk level
- high WIS
- high DEX
- items and spell giving natural armour

10 - base AC
12 - monk WIS-boni (~WIS 34 - WIS maxed + potions and/or DM-quests + EG-ring)
08 - DEX-boni (DEX 26 - with slippers or cats grace)
----
30 - AC

05 - bands (from wandering village)
03 - sunfire
03 - crows nest (rogue level required)
----
41 - AC

01 - dodge
05 - expertise
----
47 - AC

05 - barkskin (natural - from druid level 12)
04 - haste (natural)
04 - tensers (natural)
07 - shield (as you don't use armor)
05 - divine shell (deflection)
----
72 - AC


there are other ways to increase AC further:

DG (racial) - bard level 11 song - cleric of helm - and many others...

but you need very special builds and parties for this high AC...


....for HOF you should have an AC between 60 and 74(?) or just forget about AC and protect your party with MI and summons...

as the enemy AB is capped at 52/54 (?) in HOF 60+ in combination with MI, blink and blur is quite good...

I have posted a party here were at least 4 PCs can reach an AC of 60+ theoretically:


http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=60923


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[ishuman]

Wow, I played around with the goblins in the dock area and I can definitely see that HOF is a different ballgame. Little goblins making their fort saves against Disintegration, one guy took a Cone of Cold right in the face and kept going. Another took a critical hit from the Great Sword of the Soulless and didn’t fall.

So I definitely think its worth rethinking some of these guys. I tried replacing two characters (#1 and #6, the fighter/cleric and the rogue/cleric) with level one characters and didn’t really miss them yet. Plus, the experience per goblin went from 200 to 825 xp! So I’m inclined to think that silverdragon72 is right (from a different thread) that new characters in HOF should at least hit the low 20’s in level. I’ll probably add a 2nd divine caster and the other would be an arcane type.

But I think I’ll start a new game in normal/insane mode too and just see which one I end up playing. I’ll try a smaller party of 4 or 5- maybe with staggered entrance times to mix things up. I’ll work up a party for that. Any suggestions?

Also, I noticed that when I brought my old party into HOF most of the inventory came with but all the containers disappeared. Is that normal?

Thanks,
-ishuman

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=ishuman]Wow, I played around with the goblins in the dock area and I can definitely see that HOF is a different ballgame. Little goblins making their fort saves against Disintegration, one guy took a Cone of Cold right in the face and kept going. Another took a critical hit from the Great Sword of the Soulless and didn’t fall.[/QUOTE]

...that's what I said earlier - forget about damage based spells as all enemies have several hundred HP!

...just cast one WoB and all these little goblins are gone

...what you need in HOF are PCs who can protect themselves for several rounds and still deal good damage (as WoB works very good but not always)

...you might have recognized that even the goblins have a good AB and deal tons of damage...-...and wait for the tougher enemies!

.

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=ishuman]Also, I noticed that when I brought my old party into HOF most of the inventory came with but all the containers disappeared. Is that normal?[/QUOTE]


yes - you loose all containers and all quest items!


.

[Heidrek]

You might as well go HoF!

Keep your Sorc. and both Clerics.

Keep leveling the Dreadmaster and forget about more fighter levels for this guy, 10 is plenty. This will be your main Melee character for a while. Do the opposite for your Battleguard. Start giving this guy Fighter levels and load up both Clerics with SF and GSF: Enchantment. This will beef up your main disablers: Hold Person, Greater Command and Symbol: Hoplessness. It will also boost the Dreadmasters Dominate Person and later Mass Dominate domain spells.

Magic is going to win you more fights than anything else in HoF, and elemental damage doesn't really cut it. Your Sorc. MUST learn Symbol: Hoplessness and Wail of the Banshee. Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy is a must. ]

In the early game a good tactic will be to have your Fighter/Dreadmaster draw the enemy fire while Your Sorc. Casts Malison and your Battleguard drops a Symbol: Hoplessness. This should disable most of the enemy.

As far as other choices for your party go, the other characters and start from scratch. I'd go with a Bard, and perhaps a Druid, but these are really just for fun. Once you have enough levels in your Clerics and Sorceror, these will be the characters that win your battles. For fun you might want to run a high level Rogue if you like sneak attacks (like I do), you get a free sneak at any disabled opponent.

In short, forget about winning your battles through melee combat. In HoF, you'll get taken appart. Forget about Fireballs etc. they aren't worth the time to cast them most of the time, the first few rounds of any fight will be the deciders. If you don't take out most of your opponents one way or another, you'll get creamed.

One of my fav. HoF combos is to have a cleric casting Recitation, a wiz or sorc cast Malison and either a Bard or another arcane caster cast Emotion: Despair on the approaching enemy swarm, all while the last spell caster is casting Wail of the Banshee. By the time the Wail resolves, the enemy has had it's saves dropped by 6, or even 8 if you have a fighter swinging away with Saga of the Wandering Sky which Dooms (-2 to hit, damage and saves) anything it hits. There is not much that will survive a Wail by a skilled caster with GSF: Necomancy after it's saves have been reduced by 6. Anything that survives this is easily dealt with next round.

Not very fair, but then neither is HoF. In HoF you either fight dirty of you die.