Many ****SPOILERS**** ahead.....
I have been musing over the various endings to the game, and reading the threads about Jacks' role in the endgame....
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet....
I think Jack is probably responsible for setting the PC and Nines up (with the werewolf) at the end of the game....
Reasons:
1) When you go to find Nines at just before heading to Griffith Park, Jack is no longer in the bar.... where has he suddenly gone? Who, other than people at that bar, know where you are going? LaCroix and Ming certainly don't.....
2) When you escape the werewolf, there is Jack conveniently waiting for you. He tells you that LaCroix has called a blood hunt for you. Do you have ANY other evidence that it was LaCroix who set up the hunt? No - just Jack's word... In the final scene, LaCroix still claims YOU have been the traitor, and does not own up to the blood hunt.... Why would he still lie at that point?
3) Jack takes you back your haven. Why? Could have gone right to the cab - who is willing to take you to the haven later..... By going to the haven, he sets up the gauntlet.....
4) Why is the cab blocks away? Why didn't Jack arrange for the cab to be at your haven? Why make you run a gauntlet...
5) And speaking of gauntlets, wasn't that a weak test? Pretty damned easy, considering you had just finished off the Sabbat and a werewolf.... But - the run to the cab DOES convince you of the reality of the blood hunt. Only LaCroix didn't set it up - Jack did....
6) Prior the the supposed blood hunt, did you really have motivation to take out LaCroix's entire organization? Sure - he was a sniveling jerk - but he hadn't done anything against you to that point.... and he still claimed you had betrayed HIM to the end.....
7) As a result of Jack's manipulation, you take out not only LaCroix, but his entire organization. Not a bad result for the ultimate manipulator...
Thoughts?
-- Jim
Jack: The Ultimate Manipulator (SPOILERS)
-
yrthwyndandfyre
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:30 am
- Location: 100 Miles up the butt of the world
- Contact:
I like it, and it's not like Jack hasn't done enough manipulation up to this point to not be able to *fake* a blood hunt call from the insular Lacroix. I always wondered, not so much about the gauntlet, but the *ease* of the gauntlet. A dozen vampires, some clearly warform, which is an advanced discipline, and my little Tremere can *fight* through them? Even hand-to-hand? Even against Celerity with Shotguns and such? It seems extremely convenient.
Can we all spell 'really inept vampires'?
Can we all spell 'really inept vampires'?
Sic gorgiamos allos subjectatos nunc
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
I wandered lonely as a cloud
...and bumped into a vamp with Auspex.
TBH - I was so surprised that I ended up having to re-load.
It is technique that gets you through that host of vamps - the first 3 can do you if you are spotted, then there are 2 with another near enough to come along and the final section they are decent enough in a fight.
the advantage the PC has is that we can play it tactically and when you take them out using stealth, it is not too difficult. that is, it is not too difficult if you have put XP into the the right slots - which after the first run-through players should do. a good player has much more power than a first-timer - think of how many XP are saved using the manuals at the right time and getting free training - that is many 10s of points of advantage over a neonate. if the game were only do-able for maxed-out PCs then it would be far to hard for average players - even with my maxed characters, there is still some challenge - warform Andrei actually did me some damage a few days back!
It is possible that Jack is a naughty boy. Who wants to be around when he jumps out of the box?
...and bumped into a vamp with Auspex.
TBH - I was so surprised that I ended up having to re-load.
It is technique that gets you through that host of vamps - the first 3 can do you if you are spotted, then there are 2 with another near enough to come along and the final section they are decent enough in a fight.
the advantage the PC has is that we can play it tactically and when you take them out using stealth, it is not too difficult. that is, it is not too difficult if you have put XP into the the right slots - which after the first run-through players should do. a good player has much more power than a first-timer - think of how many XP are saved using the manuals at the right time and getting free training - that is many 10s of points of advantage over a neonate. if the game were only do-able for maxed-out PCs then it would be far to hard for average players - even with my maxed characters, there is still some challenge - warform Andrei actually did me some damage a few days back!
It is possible that Jack is a naughty boy. Who wants to be around when he jumps out of the box?
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
-
MalaksBane
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:13 pm
- Contact:
No doubt in my mind that Jack is a major manipulator, but
That would end all speculation in this area, but I'll give my thoughts anyway, if just to see if other pieces of information may come floating to the surface.
Jack might still be resposible for the fires, but why? Could he possibly have foreseen that LaCroix would turn against the Kuei-Jin and (pretend to) seek an alliance with the Anarchs? Does he have reason to assume that Ming will contact your character and telll you about the key?
Mhh, a Downtown bloodhunt might have been nice though ... I would have liked it if the bloodhunt had been on over more area's and quests, or at least, if you'd have had to make your way to the temple and the tower through vampire infested area's.
1) The trial, well, this is actually a point against all of the Camarilla.
2) Were you expected to succeed in blowing up the, heavily guarded, warehouse? You're a fledgling of unkown origin and surely LaCroix would have had agents that would be deemed more capable of this task.
3) You were not expected to survive the raid on the Sabbat headquarters (talk with security muffin when you return...).
This suggest that the demise of the Camarilla's in LA seems secondary, the cabdriver even seems to favor you choosing to join the Cammies - as long as you dispose of LaCroix (and Ming).
But, yeah, in my opinion it were Jack and his buddy who manipulated the whole thing, starting with the discovery of the box. Though they may not have planned every detail, things probably work in their favor in most, if not all of the possible outcomes.
If you talk with the Jester (or the wizard-king) after you make it to the taxi, you'll find that this bloodhunt is real, and not an elaborate ruse invented by Jack to force you into something.jdougan1 wrote:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet....
I think Jack is probably responsible for setting the PC and Nines up (with the werewolf) at the end of the game....
That would end all speculation in this area, but I'll give my thoughts anyway, if just to see if other pieces of information may come floating to the surface.
The fires start even before you go to the Hallowbrook Hotel and I think they are even mentioned in Bach's journal .... Nines' hideout may not be known to the Jester, he might have guessed it though.1) When you go to find Nines at just before heading to Griffith Park, Jack is no longer in the bar.... where has he suddenly gone? Who, other than people at that bar, know where you are going? LaCroix and Ming certainly don't.....
Jack might still be resposible for the fires, but why? Could he possibly have foreseen that LaCroix would turn against the Kuei-Jin and (pretend to) seek an alliance with the Anarchs? Does he have reason to assume that Ming will contact your character and telll you about the key?
The conversation with LaCroix after you choose to side with him in the taxi, indicates the bloodhunt was called on you by LaCroix for the alleged murder of Nines. Naturally he then quickly points the finger at Ming, who would have had you followed and set fire to park (an obvious lie, as the fires start long before you meet with Nines).2) When you escape the werewolf, there is Jack conveniently waiting for you. He tells you that LaCroix has called a blood hunt for you. Do you have ANY other evidence that it was LaCroix who set up the hunt? No - just Jack's word... In the final scene, LaCroix still claims YOU have been the traitor, and does not own up to the blood hunt.... Why would he still lie at that point?
Dawn is coming, at least that is what he says at the observatory. I doubt a cab offers much protection against the sun. The downtown haven might not be available to all outcomes of the game, so that's just a game limitation I think.3) Jack takes you back your haven. Why? Could have gone right to the cab - who is willing to take you to the haven later..... By going to the haven, he sets up the gauntlet.....
Mhh, a Downtown bloodhunt might have been nice though ... I would have liked it if the bloodhunt had been on over more area's and quests, or at least, if you'd have had to make your way to the temple and the tower through vampire infested area's.
It wasn't a test, it was a bloodhunt. Why the cab didn't pick you up at your doorstep remains a mystery. Perhaps the nearby roads were blocked, like the alleys behind Asylum.4) Why is the cab blocks away? Why didn't Jack arrange for the cab to be at your haven? Why make you run a gauntlet...
5) And speaking of gauntlets, wasn't that a weak test? Pretty damned easy, considering you had just finished off the Sabbat and a werewolf.... But - the run to the cab DOES convince you of the reality of the blood hunt. Only LaCroix didn't set it up - Jack did....
Perhaps not against the Cammies, but certainly against LaCroix, he's tried to end your unlife at several let's see:6) Prior the the supposed blood hunt, did you really have motivation to take out LaCroix's entire organization? Sure - he was a sniveling jerk - but he hadn't done anything against you to that point.... and he still claimed you had betrayed HIM to the end.....
1) The trial, well, this is actually a point against all of the Camarilla.
2) Were you expected to succeed in blowing up the, heavily guarded, warehouse? You're a fledgling of unkown origin and surely LaCroix would have had agents that would be deemed more capable of this task.
3) You were not expected to survive the raid on the Sabbat headquarters (talk with security muffin when you return...).
You still have the choice of joining the Camarilla, under Strauss.7) As a result of Jack's manipulation, you take out not only LaCroix, but his entire organization. Not a bad result for the ultimate manipulator...
This suggest that the demise of the Camarilla's in LA seems secondary, the cabdriver even seems to favor you choosing to join the Cammies - as long as you dispose of LaCroix (and Ming).
But, yeah, in my opinion it were Jack and his buddy who manipulated the whole thing, starting with the discovery of the box. Though they may not have planned every detail, things probably work in their favor in most, if not all of the possible outcomes.
--
"And they know it was you."
"Too many of us migh set them off like fundamentalists on contrary opinion."
"And they know it was you."
"Too many of us migh set them off like fundamentalists on contrary opinion."